Timing area weird noise: (not the tick, not a rattle)

captdistraction

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New motor, now 500 miles into break in without significant issue (could use a neutral profile correction). However since I've had it running, there's been an odd noise, varying in volume with oil temperature and runtime coming from the timing cover area.

It can be subtle to very loud (enough to hear over a dual disc noisy raceclutch and exhaust). Mostly coming off revs.

The noise sounds like a whirring, whining, metallic moaning noise that follows RPM. At first I thought it had to be the water pump, but now I'm not so sure. It definitely seems like its coming from the timing cover itself. I'll test the car soon without the belt on, but I don't believe the noise to be the pump.

I'm unsure what in the timing system could make such a noise? if it were chain slack, I'd expect a rattle, worn guides maybe? Solenoids?

Here's a couple quick videos:


Timing is made up of:
new main chains
MMR crank sprocket
Boss 302/CJ main tensioners
Stock GT secondary tensioners
MMR secondary timing chains
Factory GT phasers
13+ phaser solenoids (removed the 11 and installed new fittings)
Boss 302 Cams/heads/etc

Couple videos (listen for the higher pitches, I'll try to get better video):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kf_U0VSTnd8 - no revving, but you can clearly hear it, almost like a buzz.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Msao5xlt5KM - here its not as loud, but you can hear it follow the revs, especially on revdown (listen for higher pitched noises)
 

Sky Render

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Can't view the videos where I am right now, but there was a TSB for timing noise; I had to have it done on my '11 GT. Could that be the issue?

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Sky Render

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Kind of like a metallic "clack?"

I know it's different than what you're experiencing, but I wonder if it could be a similar issue.

Sent from my Samsung Galaxy Note 4 using Tapatalk
 

captdistraction

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are there known issues with them? is it possible I'm hearing noise from them being different in dimension of the links or hardware? (IE scraping over something to create the moaning).

Its easy enough to change once I have the front cover off, but a pity if I have to go that far. I'll pull the valve covers off tonight and look at them.
 

captdistraction

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An update:

I haven't pulled the covers yet, but I did go around the motor with a screwdriver. There's some mild clacking on the passenger side valvecover (sounds like lifters, or possibly chain related), but I didn't have anyone to press the throttle while I tested.

I did get a more clear video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sKHiVaDDAhw

you can still hear it most on revdown. Its gets much louder at times but I just can't figure this one out. I'll try to get the valve covers removed tonight.
 

wbt

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What secondary tensioners are you using and also primary timing chain guides?

I personally wouldn't run anything MMR and know you have had past issues with their stuff so am curious just how much is in the engine here?
 

captdistraction

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factory secondary tensioners in their factory positions (not inverted).

I've had my issues with their stuff, but if this is timing related, its mostly ford parts which I thoroughly inspected (and I verified the timing of this motor myself and did not encounter issues through that process).

I'll try to get in there today and dig around.
 

captdistraction

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So I took the covers off and couldn't find much. The cam lobes all look great, the secondary chain and tensioners look fine on both sides. I can very slightly pull up on the chain on the secondary tensioner but not enough to relieve pressure against the guide so they are nice and tight even without the tensioner pumped up.

I took the belt off and spun all the pulleys and all are whisper quiet.

I checked each lifter/follower and the unloaded ones can move very slightly unpumped and I believe that to be normal and expected. Can't see much of the main chain yet it appears to be tight and appropriately tensioned.

0c1b77bbb92a38d19e39ce24067d8f97.jpg




0c59659182795a50662724eb3dcfefb2.jpg



I guess next step is the front cover. There's no possibility oil pump or main bearing(s) could contribute to noise like that is there?
 

captdistraction

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Pulled the belt and ran the motor to warm, but noise persists. Rules out the FEAD belt system. It definitely starts once the water temps reach 140 or so.
 

captdistraction

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I've listened to dozens of timing noise videos and nothing really seems to sound the same outside a F150 video that had a similar whine/moan to it though very audible at idle (3.5L).

I've heard oil pump gears be mentioned, phasers, etc. I'll pull the oil pan plug tonight and look for excessive metal fuzz/shavings.

Saturday I'll have some helpers to take a look at the car but still at a total loss. I can pull the motor and send it back to the builder (they are offering their support and inspection), but I really don't want to go down that road unless I must. Its such a bummer to being so close to ready for track season and yet so far away from being able to go.
 

captdistraction

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Went over it again with a screwdriver top and bottom but can't tell at idle. Once it's warm it really makes noise though. Drove it around and it was fine though my water leak is picking up so a project to track that down.

The pan plug did have some metal on it but what i would consider mostly normal. The sample of oil I captured was mostly clear but had lots of stuff in it, again not sure how big an issue on a new motor or a sample taken from the bottom of the pan (additionally the copper color may have been from the crush washer or the coating on the exterior of the pan)

So no closer.

Pics:
Plug
d7fb7cef2664f9c15b601f4cef7e38d8.jpg


Oil sample in water container I had sliced open:
2e609e48c1356f74a8f87eca2e34e012.jpg
 

wbt

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Pull the oil filter and cut it open. What you see has bypassed it but I bet there is a lot more in there.
 

DrTriton

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Almost sounds like pump cavitation to me. Did you leave a heater hose unhooked to allow air to escape while you were re-filling the coolant system?

Try turning the heater on full blast with the car at full operating temp for 5 - 10 minutes. Also you can try and vacuum bleed the air out using a mighty vac.
 

captdistraction

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No heater core on this car, hvac and heat removed. Could be water related though it's happening with the belt off. Could there be air? Sure. Headgasket is also possble I guess
 

captdistraction

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Put it in the air today and listened from below while someone revved it. Two noises both from the front and seem related to the timing chain. There's definitely some more rapid clacking noise when revving down suggesting the timing chain has excessive slack and particularly on the passenger side. With the move I'll get the car home week of the 12th and get the front cover off and dig in deeper.
 

wbt

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Hmmmm.....I wonder if there are oil pressure issues for the tensioners.

Do a google search for coyote timing chain tensioners....you may find some interesting info out there and some items to check when the front cover is off.
 

captdistraction

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spambot aside, this is resolved. Oil pump had scored faces, despite there not being notable material in the oil filter. Put a stock pump in and the noise is eliminated. Working out a replacement pump with the aftermarket supplier.

Strange for a new motor to have an issue like this, as typically pump scoring means it ate something, but I couldn't find any traces of that something and the motor is clean and pristene throughout, bearing surfaces look fine.
 

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