Car Aligned 3X still Drifts to Right

Norm Peterson

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More positive = higher caster number = pulls to that side. Since you were talking about using caster to compensate for road crown, and since we drive on the right side of the road you would want to add caster (higher number, more positive, however you would like to label it) to the _drivers_ side of the car.
??? everything I've ever read has the drift going toward the side with less positive caster.


Yep. I didn't even think you could adjust the control arm there without modification beyond the scope of the average alignment shop and assumed that adjustments were being made at the top if any adjustments were being made at all with regards to caster.
Ford's official FSM caster adjustment procedure and the method used by one or two aftermarket front LCA bushing people use the LCA approach, involving slotted holes.


Norm
 

gus

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Roads generally slope that way, so yes.

But even in the left lane which slopes left or riding with the road crown directly under the car wants to wander right.

Have you swapped the rear tires side to side yet?
Yes, no change.
 
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dontlifttoshift

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??? everything I've ever read has the drift going toward the side with less positive caster.


Ford's official FSM caster adjustment procedure and the method used by one or two aftermarket front LCA bushing people use the LCA approach, involving slotted holes.


Norm

Goes to google, throws hands in air, what the hell?

I haven't done an alignment since 1999. In the hundred or so that I have had done since then on various cars, I always request that they are set symmetrically.......so I remembered it wrong apparently. Here I thought I made it two days in a row without saying something stupid. Derp.
 

SoundGuyDave

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But even in the left lane which slopes left or riding with the road crown directly under the car wants to wander right.


Yes, no change.

Gus, I think you're at the point where you need to go to a different shop, and at least see if the two machines agree with each other.

All the basics have been covered
* No worn parts
* All suspension angles well within spec.
* side-side rotation results in no change, essentially eliminating a bad tire.

Time to get some fresh eyes on the issue, and see what a different rack and machine make of the current numbers. IF there's a big change, then the first shop's hardware may be badly out of calibration, or the tech is just not doing things correctly.

I have some suspicions about that, simply based on the rear camber and toe numbers. If those numbers are correct, you have a pretty badly bent axle housing, and will very soon wear out the axle splines right where they pass through the diff. Ask me how I know... If the rear axle numbers are WRONG, though, that calls into question the numbers on the front, as well. Slapping the car on a different rack should solve that question one way or another.

If you really want to make sure you're in good shape first, park the car on a reasonably flat slab of concrete, and fabricate a plumb-bob out of some light fishing line and a nut. Grab a grease-pen or chalk, and use the plumb-bob to transcribe some points from the suspension onto the floor. Mark the following:

1) Center point of the bolt mounting the LCAs to the rear axle. I use the bolt-head side, and just hang the line from the center of the bolt head.

2) Center point of the bolt mounting the LCAs to the chassis. Again, use the center of the bolt-head.

3) A point on the FCAs as close to the inner edge of the tire as you can get. Find a hole, or something else that is VERY distinct and symmetrical, not a weld mark.

4) Center point of the bolt mounting the FCAs to the K-member, right through the forward bushing, right behind the rack bellows.

Now, back the car off that slab, and grab a tape measure. Measure the following:

A) Left-side #1 to right-side #3.
B) Right-side #1 to left-side #3.
C) Left-side #2 to left-side #4.
D) Right-side #2 to right-side #4.
E) Left side #2 to right-side #4.
F) Right-side #2 to left-side #4.

If A does not equal B, within a small amount, your suspension is not square.

If C does not equal D, within a VERY small amount, your frame is off, or the K-member isn't squared properly.

The E-F comparison will give you a clue if it's the K-member or the frame itself.

If everything comes up roses, then your frame and suspension are all square, your thrust angle is good, and there's no reason that the car would not be alignable.

I would also spot-check that rear toe number. Google "string alignment" and use that concrete pad again, and take VERY careful measurements to see if there really is that much toe involved. According to the alignment machine (possibly suspect), you have as much toe on the right rear as you do total toe in the front. That could cause some "odd" behaviour right there.

I'm betting on a bent axle housing.
 

gus

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Lots of good info here. I'll try marking if off in my garage as outlined above and schedule some time on another alignment machine.

I'd be surprised if something was off with the frame or axle because for 8 years - until making the changes - the alignment was never an issue and never needed any attention. The car went straight and the tires wore perfectly, even after adding 90-100 lbs to the top of the engine.
 

SoundGuyDave

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I hear you, brother... That said, if you CAN positively eliminate frame and axle, at least that end of the diagnostic is done, and you know FOR SURE that nothing is "off" with the chassis and suspension, that really only leaves the wheels and tires... Much easier to argue with the vendor/installer when you can PROVE that it's not "something else." Your rear alignment numbers still worry me. Really points to either a hardware issue, an alignment rack that's out of calibration, or a tech that doesn't know how to use the rack properly. If all the measurements say the axle is straight, well... ;-)

Dying to hear what the upshot is!
 

gus

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Ya, it will be good to know for sure what's going on. Those are really great instructions for checking everything. My garage floor is new but has a ~1 degree slope from back to front so water would go towards the door. Would that cause any issue with taking measurements?

This is a log shot but I reused the factory rear rotor retainers. Could that throw anything off?
 

oldVOR

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This is a log shot but I reused the factory rear rotor retainers. Could that throw anything off?

As long as the new wheels have clearance pockets for the rotor retainers, no. If the wheels don't, you've effectively put a small shim on one or two of the wheel studs that will cause the wheel to not sit squarely on the hub/rotor.

I'd recommend removing them, they are mainly there to aid in the assembly line process during the build of the car.
 

Norm Peterson

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Ya, it will be good to know for sure what's going on. Those are really great instructions for checking everything. My garage floor is new but has a ~1 degree slope from back to front so water would go towards the door. Would that cause any issue with taking measurements?
Not if the points on the car/suspension that you're dropping your plumb bob strings through are all at about the same height (all of the resulting points on the floor would be offset from "true" by the same amount). The amount of fore-aft foreshortening due to a 1° slope would be less than 0.02" over the (theoretical) 107.1" wheelbase and can be neglected.

I wouldn't ever re-use those flat tinnerman nuts. You're much better off turning a couple of open-end lug nuts around and using them to seat the rotor flat while you're re-installing brake parts.


Norm
 
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SoundGuyDave

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Tinnerman nuts? Yes, immediately pull them and pitch them. There is no reason to have them on the car once Ford has completed the initial assembly on the rotisserie at the factory. I don't think that will be the cause of your consistent pull to the right, though...
 

gus

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To update and close out this post...The alignment was fixed just by going to another shop! Turns out the right toe was out even after 3 alignments at the first shop. With hands off the wheel the alignment is perfect down a 4/10 mile test area where I always test. So their equipment must be off and they are giving out bad alignments to all their customers. I paid them for a lifetime alignment so I'm going to ask for a refund.

Thanks for all your input on this.
 

86GT351

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To update and close out this post...The alignment was fixed just by going to another shop! Turns out the right toe was out even after 3 alignments at the first shop. With hands off the wheel the alignment is perfect down a 4/10 mile test area where I always test. So their equipment must be off and they are giving out bad alignments to all their customers. I paid them for a lifetime alignment so I'm going to ask for a refund.

Thanks for all your input on this.

Get your money back from first shop. Just for your time!
 

2008 V6

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Gus, I think you're at the point where you need to go to a different shop, and at least see if the two machines agree with each other.

All the basics have been covered
* No worn parts
* All suspension angles well within spec.
* side-side rotation results in no change, essentially eliminating a bad tire.

Time to get some fresh eyes on the issue, and see what a different rack and machine make of the current numbers. IF there's a big change, then the first shop's hardware may be badly out of calibration, or the tech is just not doing things correctly.

I have some suspicions about that, simply based on the rear camber and toe numbers. If those numbers are correct, you have a pretty badly bent axle housing, and will very soon wear out the axle splines right where they pass through the diff. Ask me how I know... If the rear axle numbers are WRONG, though, that calls into question the numbers on the front, as well. Slapping the car on a different rack should solve that question one way or another.

If you really want to make sure you're in good shape first, park the car on a reasonably flat slab of concrete, and fabricate a plumb-bob out of some light fishing line and a nut. Grab a grease-pen or chalk, and use the plumb-bob to transcribe some points from the suspension onto the floor. Mark the following:

1) Center point of the bolt mounting the LCAs to the rear axle. I use the bolt-head side, and just hang the line from the center of the bolt head.

2) Center point of the bolt mounting the LCAs to the chassis. Again, use the center of the bolt-head.

3) A point on the FCAs as close to the inner edge of the tire as you can get. Find a hole, or something else that is VERY distinct and symmetrical, not a weld mark.

4) Center point of the bolt mounting the FCAs to the K-member, right through the forward bushing, right behind the rack bellows.

Now, back the car off that slab, and grab a tape measure. Measure the following:

A) Left-side #1 to right-side #3.
B) Right-side #1 to left-side #3.
C) Left-side #2 to left-side #4.
D) Right-side #2 to right-side #4.
E) Left side #2 to right-side #4.
F) Right-side #2 to left-side #4.

If A does not equal B, within a small amount, your suspension is not square.

If C does not equal D, within a VERY small amount, your frame is off, or the K-member isn't squared properly.

The E-F comparison will give you a clue if it's the K-member or the frame itself.

If everything comes up roses, then your frame and suspension are all square, your thrust angle is good, and there's no reason that the car would not be alignable.

I would also spot-check that rear toe number. Google "string alignment" and use that concrete pad again, and take VERY careful measurements to see if there really is that much toe involved. According to the alignment machine (possibly suspect), you have as much toe on the right rear as you do total toe in the front. That could cause some "odd" behaviour right there.

I'm betting on a bent axle housing.

I am glad the OP solved his problem - What Dave has outlined should and can be performed by anyone to check their chassis especially if installing a new front subframe. You can purchase 4 good Plums for $20 - $30 and they will last a lifetime.
Toe alignment equipment can be fabricated for a few dollars and (2) Good tape measures you can upgrade to lazars but an extra unnecessary expense.
Turn plates will cost you some coin as will a good caster camber tool.
All the above will be payed for after you do your own alignment a few times especially if your friend find out. At least you will know the alignment is right and can be checked and changed at any time. Most shops won't alter from recommended stock suspension settings - Too much of a liability for a one off job.

:rich::Once the bug hits you - Portable rack so you can be level anywhere. Temperature adjusting tire gauge, scales - The list goes on and on and on and on.
Here is a link to a supplier who I have purchased from - no affiliation.

http://www.longacreracing.com/

Hope this helps you and others
 

RocketcarX

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Glad you solved the problem, OP.
The tech can make those numbers read whatever he likes by changing back ground specs, BTW.
On another note, if the car is lowered I would decrease the camber spec to .75 to avoid the tire wear that comes with lowering an S197. Also I always set my caster flat side to side unless it's aa customer car. I speed too much time off-highway driving to need to add a pull for compensation. I feel like more caster on one side can't be good for ultimate handling.
 

Norm Peterson

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Yes, good to hear it's been corrected. Not so good to hear that any shop couldn't get the only thing that's readily adjustable on an '06 somewhere near right by the third try.


For street/autocross/HPDE I wouldn't go out of my way to insert cross-caster (either way) where there wasn't any, but I also wonder if doing so could be of any advantage at all for driving on ovals, or on road courses where the most important turns all go the same way. Say, for example, there were tire or other contingencies at stake at a time trial or wheel to wheel race and the competition was very closely matched.


Norm
 

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