Learning to make fast go fast!

jewc75 said:

A turbo or two on the 5.0 and your good for 750-800 on the stock block and RA. A ton of folks have done it. You cant do that to a 3v.

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But you can make 1300hp with a stock 3v block. Can't do that with a Yote.

When playing with over 1000hp the 3v will always cost less to build/maintain. And in this thread we're talking about 1000+.

jewc75 said:

Who does a stock block for anything north of 1k rwhp?

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We are discussing the stock 05-10 block, not the short block.

05stroker said:

We are discussing the stock 05-10 block, not the short block.

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This^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

jewc75 said:

A turbo or two on the 5.0 and your good for 750-800 on the stock block and RA. A ton of folks have done it. You cant do that to a 3v.

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That's very impressive. A stock GT500 5.4 is only good to 725rwhp or so before the rods go. "Only", lol. that's a shit ton of power on the street.

The stock Terminator iron blocks will take more than that but they come from the factory with Manley H beam rods.

Anyway, the power levels Billy is looking for are high enough that only a 3v 3L block will do.

Something that is interesting is that the link to the JPC short block lists 3.700 Darton sleeves in the parts list. FWIW the Darton 3.700 sleeves are a whole unit that requires machining out all of the stock bores. If a Coyote block is holding that kind of power with the Darton sleeve block a 3v would do the same since the bore centers are the same.

What I'm getting at is that if the JPC motor is really holding up to repeated drag strip use with the Darton sleeve system then it would be a viable option on a 3v block. With stock stroke it would make an overbore 304 cubic inch big bore with unshrouded valves that should rev to the moon very quickly. A 3.750 stroke would make a fairly square 322 inches and a 3.800 stroke would make 326 inches. All with the excellent 4/6 bolt mains on the 1L/3L block.

Darton will do all of the machining and installation of the sleeve assemblies if a customer ships the block to them. IIRC the final cost is around $2500. Add that to the price of a block and shipping both ways and the 5.8 block is a serious competitor. I did read something about the 5.8 block being the strongest factory block Ford ever produced IIRC. I think Manuel posted the link. Maybe even in this thread, lol.

BruceH said:

That's very impressive.

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I'm not sure how much I "believe" that there are stock block Yotes running around at 750-800rwhp. Just because something has been done and it didn't let go.....................doesn't mean it won't. There is a big difference between "made it that time" and "safe".

05stroker said:

There was no debris above the piston though.

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Debris knows no boundaries, lol.

So a lean condition in that cylinder and it melted? That would mean your hard parts are fine and you have maybe a bad injector.
I just don't think the plug is going to tell you anything about the cause of the failure, is what I meant earlier.
Not that I have any insight to what happened, I just don't think the plug was hurt in such aa way that it can't be ruled an innocent bystander.

Department Of Boost said:

I'm not sure how much I "believe" that there are stock block Yotes running around at 750-800rwhp. Just because something has been done and it didn't let go.....................doesn't mean it won't. There is a big difference between "made it that time" and "safe".

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As you know turbo's dont cause the harmonics a belt driven anything does. Harmonics are a coyote killer. Block supports and you can push the coyote even harder.

jewc75 said:

As you know turbo's dont cause the harmonics a belt driven anything does. Harmonics are a coyote killer. Block supports and you can push the coyote even harder.

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Yea, but I don't like having to carry a cooler with ten bags of ice to make a few passes.

jewc75 said:

As you know turbo's dont cause the harmonics a belt driven anything does. Harmonics are a coyote killer. Block supports and you can push the coyote even harder.

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I was under the impression that the pressurized/restricted exhaust stroke common to a turbo put added loads to the whole rotating assembly when under higher boost, especially the piston crowns and rods. The stock thin crown, high top ring pistons and powdered rods are taking enough psi to make 750rwhp and they survive? That is really something. I've never torn down a turbo motor so I can only go on the theory of what sees more stress.

Of course I also thought that as long as the belt wasn't bouncing off of the tensioner a supercharger and it's drive setup was an extension of the dampner, helping to absorb rouge vibrations.

Billy, you mentioned something about a theory that a small dish piston top might be better than a flat top for quench on a forced induction application. Any more on that?

jewc75 said:

As you know turbo's dont cause the harmonics a belt driven anything does. Harmonics are a coyote killer. Block supports and you can push the coyote even harder.

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Harmonics don't kill rods. 800hp is 800hp when it comes to rod loading. I agree that you can get a little more power out of a turbo Yote over a blown Yote because of the difference in parasitic loss. But assuming the tensioner is not set up wrong (a lot are) I'm not sold that turbo's are easier on motors.

I have a pretty long history with belt driven cams in 14,000rpm race motors. In these applications the belts are used because they act as an isolater for harmonics. A blower belt would does the same thing.

I'm a firm believer that RPM's and bottoming tensioners are what breaks parts on blown cars. The former can be solved with good gears and a good balancer. The second with a well thought out tensioner.

How many 750-800rwhp stock shortblock Yotes are out there? One? Three?

BruceH said:

Billy, you mentioned something about a theory that a small dish piston top might be better than a flat top for quench on a forced induction application. Any more on that?

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I was thinking of the change to lower CR, but I was told by a builder in Dallas that he feels that a small dish has a batter quench then a flattop.

05stroker said:

I was thinking of the change to lower CR, but I was told by a builder in Dallas that he feels that a small dish has a batter quench then a flattop.

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Hemi

Department Of Boost said:

Hemi

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Lol. I couldn't bring myself to say that.

I really do wish I understood more about what makes an ideal quench. A friend of mine once bought a used Ford nascar motor. He tore it down for a rebuild prior to doing anything else with it, measuring all the specs as he went.

He found something real interesting, the pistons were all out of the hole at tdc. He called the original builder and asked about it. All the builder would say is that my friend figured out something that wasn't readily known. Wouldn't tell him why or the theory behind it and that was the end of the conversation.

Department Of Boost said:

Harmonics don't kill rods.

How many 750-800rwhp stock shortblock Yotes are out there? One? Three?

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Harmonics kill opg's which kills the motor. Another problem with the coyote is the cylinder walls crack at the water jackets. Some cars live at that horsepower level for a long time (more than a year) without ever having any issues. Some dont make it off the dyno before breaking. Unfortunately there isnt a solid answer as to whats safe with the coyote. Some live and some dont.

jewc75 said:

Harmonics kill opg's which kills the motor. Another problem with the coyote is the cylinder walls crack at the water jackets. Some cars live at that horsepower level for a long time (more than a year) without ever having any issues. Some dont make it off the dyno before breaking. Unfortunately there isnt a solid answer as to whats safe with the coyote. Some live and some dont.

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So the Coyote blocks are weaker than the the 3v 4.6 block?

RocketcarX said:

So the Coyote blocks are weaker than the the 3v 4.6 block?

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Yes,,where ya been,

Department Of Boost said:

Hemi

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I don't know anything about a Hemi, so I don't get it...

RocketcarX said:

So the Coyote blocks are weaker than the the 3v 4.6 block?

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The 3l 3v block is the strongest to date.

RocketcarX said:

So the Coyote blocks are weaker than the the 3v 4.6 block?

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It's why they have multiple schemes to strengthen the block for guys over 700 HP. Some of those schemes being not much better than snake oil.

So I have the iron block like the 03/04 cobra in my car. I was too cheap to get the aluminum block. Is the block I have weaker or is it just a weight thing?