Watts Link for improved street manners

Nobody is gonna mention tire pressure, huh?

What sway bar are you guys running with it?

Shotokan1509 said:

What sway bar are you guys running with it?

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Stock sway bars here, on both cars

"street manners" caught my eye, slight thread drift but I'll be quick.

My car has been a drag racer since 2006, and I've been acquiring parts to get it back to "street trim". In corners it understeers like shit. Goal now is street/corner carver: I've always wanted to do HPDE on open track at Summit Raceway in West Virginia (I'm in central MD).

So, the questions:

1. I'd like to post up my suspension current spec, and gets some guidance on how to set up the car with the Frankenstein mishmash of parts I used on it (drag only parts removed now) to perform nicely on the street, and slowly work my way to a proper setup that will give me years of joy once I retire this December and spend countless hours in the garage, the street and tracks. Which sub forum is appropriate?

2. I'm in central MD. What performance shops in the state or adjoining REALLY know their shit regarding handling setups? I know you have to pay to play, but want real working advice. Seems uncommon around here compared to drag racing shops.

I'll continue to read as much as I can in the corner carving section. It's been a fascinating read so far and I am pumped to get out this spring and push the car in corners with more intent...

Thanks, as always...

MechE said:

Not to get too far off topic but I just put the GT handling springs on with Bilsteins and after 500 miles, I'm looking at about 3/4" up front and 1 1/4" drop in the rear. I got them in spite of the 1.5" drop not because of it. I couldn't be happier with a much higher, linear rate spring that looks better too.

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Which Bilsteins do you have, the Vorshlag version....or the Bilstein HD version ? How does your setup handle on the street...esp on crappy roads.

Pentalab said:

Which Bilsteins do you have, the Vorshlag version....or the Bilstein HD version ? How does your setup handle on the street...esp on crappy roads.

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P/N 35-128717

Perfect. They are at the "dude, fucking get 'em" level. I do have very good roads though. But there is 0 compromised for me. The only trade off I've found is an increase in what feels like porposing at 30-40MPH. However I attribute that to the springs and flat ride tuning. The usual proposing at 65-80 is gone.

MechE said:

P/N 35-128717

Perfect. They are at the "dude, fucking get 'em" level. I do have very good roads though. But there is 0 compromised for me. The only trade off I've found is an increase in what feels like porposing at 30-40MPH. However I attribute that to the springs and flat ride tuning. The usual proposing at 65-80 is gone.

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35-128717 is the Bilstein HD front strut for the 05-10 cars.
24-122245 is the Bilstein HD rear shock for the 05-10 cars.

"Application. This Bilstein HD Series Shock and Strut Kit is specifically designed for all 2005-2010 Mustangs, including V6, GT, Bullitt and GT500 models with STOCK springs installed.

You will lose a bit of piston travel with the above struts /shocks..if lowering springs used. Amount of piston travel loss = amount the car is lowered. It's usually not too big an issue, esp if stiffer springs used.

The Vorshlag Bilsteins are designed for lowered cars (up to 1.25" front....and 1" rear) http://www.vorshlag.com/product_info.php?cPath=141_142_179&products_id=642

Scroll down part way..and you can see the difference between the Voshlag Bilsteins....and an oem length strut.

Boss281 said:

"street manners" caught my eye, slight thread drift but I'll be quick.

My car has been a drag racer since 2006, and I've been acquiring parts to get it back to "street trim". In corners it understeers like shit. Goal now is street/corner carver: I've always wanted to do HPDE on open track at Summit Raceway in West Virginia (I'm in central MD).

So, the questions:

1. . . . Which sub forum is appropriate?

Click to expand...

This question I can handle . . . the correct sub forum is this one right here, "Corner Carving Racing Tech Discussion". Just start a new thread.


Norm

MechE said:

P/N 35-128717

Perfect. They are at the "dude, fucking get 'em" level. I do have very good roads though. But there is 0 compromised for me. The only trade off I've found is an increase in what feels like porposing at 30-40MPH. However I attribute that to the springs and flat ride tuning. The usual porposing at 65-80 is gone.

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The porposing bother's me. I thought only subaru's did that...oscillating like a rubber ball down the road..after hitting 1-3 bumps.

Any car will porpoise if the spring rates are poorly chosen for the speeds involved and the shocks/struts don't have much damping at body inertia velocities (low speed damping, up to maybe 3 in/sec or so).

Ignoring damping for a moment, the rate at which porpoising increases as speeds drop below the theoretical flat ride speed is not symmetrical with respect to increases as speeds rise above it.


OE Subaru rear shocks do tend to have insufficient low-speed rebound damping. Not sure about the spring rates/wheel rates themselves.


Norm

Boss281 said:

"street manners" caught my eye, slight thread drift but I'll be quick.

My car has been a drag racer since 2006, and I've been acquiring parts to get it back to "street trim". In corners it understeers like shit. Goal now is street/corner carver: I've always wanted to do HPDE on open track at Summit Raceway in West Virginia (I'm in central MD).

So, the questions:

1. I'd like to post up my suspension current spec, and gets some guidance on how to set up the car with the Frankenstein mishmash of parts I used on it (drag only parts removed now) to perform nicely on the street, and slowly work my way to a proper setup that will give me years of joy once I retire this December and spend countless hours in the garage, the street and tracks. Which sub forum is appropriate?

2. I'm in central MD. What performance shops in the state or adjoining REALLY know their shit regarding handling setups? I know you have to pay to play, but want real working advice. Seems uncommon around here compared to drag racing shops.

I'll continue to read as much as I can in the corner carving section. It's been a fascinating read so far and I am pumped to get out this spring and push the car in corners with more intent...

Thanks, as always...

Click to expand...

You can check out FlimFlam Speed in Richmond (yes the name does sound a bit goofy). I know it isn't exactly Maryland, but it is only about 3 hours away and one of Cortex Racing's recommended installation shops in your area. If I am remembering correctly they helped set up Chris Cobetto's American Iron RTR which won a few races and for whatever reason I am thinking finished the season in first place with the car. You might recognize it, but then again you may not haha

http://www.flimflamspeed.com/

Boss281 said:

2. I'm in central MD. What performance shops in the state or adjoining REALLY know their shit regarding handling setups? I know you have to pay to play, but want real working advice. Seems uncommon around here compared to drag racing shops.

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none. That's why I do my own installs.

stevbd said:

Vapour, when it comes to getting decent roll stiffness in a daily driver without excessive impact harshness, I'm a big believer in the Bilstein monotube dampers with their digressive valving. Yeah, you have to wade through a lot of marketing hype but I think that tech advantage is real. I've used Koni yellows myself for years (not on my Mustang) and the adjustablility is kind of cool. But the problem IMO is that once you get the Konis stiff enough to control roll and dive, the ride over sharp bumps, potholes, etc. goes totally to hell. No personal experience with Tokicos but maybe a similar problem? Bilsteins are much better on this point.

I'm waiting on Vorshlag's "street pro" setup (FRPP P springs and bilsteins) and will report back on how much it reduces the skittishness compared to stock on a 2011 non-Brembo suspension, if at all. I live outside Boston and drive on horribly bumpy narrow two lane roads where my stock suspension feels like it's going to skid into the weeds. So I know of what you speak. On the track is not the problem.

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So I got the Vorshlag kit installed and the difference is all I hoped it would be. It's a huge improvement compared to stock in a variety of ways, but with respect to the OP's question, that skittish jumping around feeling on bad road surfaces is gone. The car just stays in its lane and goes where you point it. It feels like the tires are staying on the pavement, which I think for the first time they actually are. White knuckle rough road corners have become one hand drink your coffee easy. Huge improvement.

Ride is typical Bilstein if you're familiar with that. Slower impacts like a speed bump are firmer, with the result that the ride can feel busier. But fast harsh impacts like a bridge abutment or pothole are actually smoother and less harsh than stock. It's kind of a weird feeling at first, but I love it.

BTW I bought an adjustable PHB but didn't install it yet because I wanted to limit the before and after variables. This was on a totally stock suspension, no other mods at all other than the Vorshlag kit.

I am still tempted to buy a watts link for various other reasons, but at least my initial impression is that a watts link isn't necessary for rough road stability with this current setup. My car feels VERY planted and stable. And I'm pretty picky about this stuff.

Good luck!

EDIT: like a bridge expansion joint. A bridge abutment would be harsh indeed.

I should've added, I think the key to this improvement is the way improved shocks - which I think Sky Render said in one sentence way back in the second post, lol.

stevbd said:

I should've added, I think the key to this improvement is the way improved shocks - which I think Sky Render said in one sentence way back in the second post, lol.

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Just to piggy back off my last post it looks like Flim Flam speed had a good weekend.

OP, I'm also in Winnipeg and can attest to the road conditions. The factory Brembo package pretty much handles like shite on our roads too.

I ordered Steeda Ultralites, Koni Sports and a few other suspension bits earlier this week.

Send me a PM if you want to hook up in the springtime for a test ride.

Bringing back this thread for a minute, I've been trying to figure out the basic engineering reason why so many people report a noticeable improvement in daily driving stability with a watts link. And sort of the related question, whether there really is an apples to apples improvement. The positive reports seem too many to ignore....

So it occurs to me, the weight of the SRA is something like 175 pounds or so. With a PHB, when one rear wheel hits a bump, the entirety of that weight is free to move up and down, thus saddling the shock and spring on the side that hit the bump with maximum unsprung weight to control. But with a watts link, the center point of the axle needs to move straight up and down. Which means if one of the rear wheels still has contact with the road, the other wheel is more limited in moving vertically because in order to do so, the rear weight of the car (1500 pounds or so) needs to stay centered over the center of the axle. Thus the watts link might act as something of an additional shock absorber. With the result that the shock which is on the side of the wheel hitting the bump has to control far less unsprung weight than with a PHB - thus allowing it to do it's job better and make the car more stable.

I'm not an engineer, so those of you who are, does this theory make any sense? Thanks.

Nope. There's nothing preventing only one side of the axle moving up and down.

Sky Render said:

Nope. There's nothing preventing only one side of the axle moving up and down.

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Well the axle can move up and down but it needs to do so in a straight vertical line relative to the chassis, right? So think about it, when one wheel hits a bump either the wheel with traction will need to slide over or the chassis of the car will need to shift over slightly in order to keep the vertical alignment between the chassis and the pumpkin. Either of which would seem to be a helpful source of vertical inertia which might reduce the net unsprung weight to be controlled on the side that hit the bump. Another way to look at it, you can usually feel the improvement if you lighten a wheel by 10 pounds or so. This effect might be the same?

I understand some people say a watts link does nothing more than a PHB in this situation but the anecdotal evidence is pretty substantial. Either a lot of people are wrong in their reviews or there is an engineering explanation for it.