Watts Link for improved street manners

Norm Peterson

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This thread sure did bloom –
An aftermarket watts link will be a vast improvement over the stock panhard bar – less compliant bushings / stiffer...
It damn well better be an improvement over stock in these respects else it'd clearly be a step in the wrong direction for those who choose to fit really wide rear wheels and tires.

For a semi-WAG at OE PHB bushing compliance, let's say there's 0.1" compliance per bushing up around 1g lateral. Once you've eliminated 70% of that - which you might even be able to accomplish with a modification to those OE rubber bushings - anything further is going to be a diminishing returns kind of thing (certainly would be for most of us). I'm not saying zero compliance isn't a good thing, only that it isn't as much better (geometrically) than a smaller-than-OE amount of compliance as it may sound. 0" vs 1/16"?

Differences in subjective feel are probably the bigger improvement here. I don't discount the value of that.


So let's look at this for a moment
lower roll center dependent upon setup
A properly set up panhard bar needs to be located lower than the original / stock setup, long as possible and parallel to the ground at ride height.
This is crucial - Determines the roll center and the length determines lateral movement.
And determines (in part) at least one other parameter as well, which may not improve as the geometric roll center is dropped. Don't be looking at a geo roll center determined by either a Watts or a PHB as being isolated from everything else.

A Panhard will loose ground clearance for the entire length of the axle as opposed to the watts 1/2 axle.
Are you conveniently forgetting that the football on the Watts link hangs down two or three inches below the main pivot (two or three inches below a level PHB set to the same geo-RC height)?


Norm
 

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It damn well better be an improvement over stock in these respects else it'd clearly be a step in the wrong direction for those who choose to fit really wide rear wheels and tires.

For a semi-WAG at OE PHB bushing compliance, let's say there's 0.1" compliance per bushing up around 1g lateral. Once you've eliminated 70% of that - which you might even be able to accomplish with a modification to those OE rubber bushings - anything further is going to be a diminishing returns kind of thing (certainly would be for most of us). I'm not saying zero compliance isn't a good thing, only that it isn't as much better (geometrically) than a smaller-than-OE amount of compliance as it may sound. 0" vs 1/16"?

Differences in subjective feel are probably the bigger improvement here. I don't discount the value of that.


So let's look at this for a moment
And determines (in part) at least one other parameter as well, which may not improve as the geometric roll center is dropped. Don't be looking at a geo roll center determined by either a Watts or a PHB as being isolated from everything else.

Are you conveniently forgetting that the football on the Watts link hangs down two or three inches below the main pivot (two or three inches below a level PHB set to the same geo-RC height)?


Norm
Hey Norm 100% correct.
I’m not Watts link guy but I have nothing against the design. Very Costly and heavy.
If I continued to develop our car, the Panhard bar would have been located as low as the bottom of the axle housing give or take ¼” at ride height. I don’t remember but I laid everything out almost 4 + years ago now. I was planning on running a 11” rim with 295-30-18s slicks on square setup (The 295s worked with the TT formula at the time)– I was going to shorten the axle tube & axles. The cost would have been offset by being able to rotate the tires after a few sets other options available today.
I made a heim jointed panhard bar that fit in the stock location and it was a vast improvement over stock when on the edge. (The rear just didn’t seam to float/ shimmy as much) Call it Pacebo effect or not – don’t know - I wasn’t keeping lap times on me. All testing at Willow Springs short course. Wife’s car – I tested a couple of laps and let her go from there. I later swapped it out for a kit that was given to me. I don’t remember whose. It lowered the mount locations a bit but not enough. It helped the car to rotate controllably with that setup - lower rear roll center. (Placebo effect don’t know but worked for me) I then swapped the control arms to heim joints units. MM lower & BMR 2010 + upper - a bit longer & improved pinion angle. Day and night difference again.
All the above is still on my wife’s daily driver many miles but I clean & lube the components every 2000 miles. It is not driven in the rain accept for me when I need to practice basic car control during the early morning hours here in Kalifornia. I have a few proprietary spots where it is safe for everybody else incase I make a mistake. Doesn’t rain much unfortunately.
My opinion and mine only is that the stock bushings flex so much as to cause a spring effect on the suspension. Add that to all the bushings and tire deforming and it makes the car more squirmish at the limit - again my opinion.
Still proper shocks and springs are the best improvement that can be done to our boats
 
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TrickyS197

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Sorry to revive a dead-ish thread but since I always seem to be the guy whose late to the party I'm gonna chime in anyway.
I'm not as well versed in all the science of suspension and all that nor will I ever claim to be.
I'm a street car guy (no legit racing or exp on track yet) and I kinda do one thing at a time mod wise to see if I'm happy with it or not for a street setting based on what my ass says.
Ok on to the fun bit:
So I started with BMR non adjustable upper and lower rear control arms with poly (otherwise stock suspension). Worked out great. You've all seen the stock stuff, yeesh. No more hop on the burnouts and other shenanigans. Then I moved on to bigger tires and wheels front/rear. Rear being 275/45/18 on a 10 inch wheel width. I'm coming from the 17 inch bullits from factory. Fun, but never enough grip when doing said shenanigans. So I still feel like more control can be had here. It came down to the Ford racing full coilovers set up w/PH or a watts link due to my "research". Pretty much just scouring the internet and shops for what would add to what I felt my car needed.
Still had that skipping nonsense over crappy terrain coupled with uneven handling when gettin deep right to left. As an example: my drive to work is only 10-12 minutes 1 way but I go from clean pavement to cobblestone to cobblestone with a massive hump "dukes" style with railroad tracks at the peak to crappy pavement with railroad tracks in between to clean pavement again. It gets wild when I'm running late. So I almost felt bad for my spine and my car when the thoughts of coilovers crept into my head. Watts link it was. Went bmr cuz I like how beefy it was and that it didn't utilize the diff cover. They claim it's only 17 pounds more overall than the stock stuff which doesn't seem far off considering it replaces all the PH equip including the chassis stabilizer mount. (Or whatever it's called). Also their upper and lowers that I mentioned are freakin awesome. (Regreasable poly bush with a nip for the grease gun? Hell yes) I got the metal bushings for the arms cuz I liked the added ease of adjustability of the axle left to right. A lil noisey but I'm driving a mustang so really. (Plus I live in Florida so no cats!!) so anyhow, figure roughly 6 months and I'm still happy I pulled the trigger on this. I really like how predictable the car became after this mod and I do put it thru some work what with cruising with the pony squad in the wee hours on some spirited driving runs. Sorry this was so long but I thought this discussion needed some tapering back to a more average joe opinion. You guys are so much more advanced in your thought processes on things! It was enlightening tho. Again tho, definitely good for the money and they have upgraded the hardware that comes with it from all the past discussions of poor hardware back in like 2010/11 if I remember correctly. That being said I agree with a lot of what you all said about the OP needing to mess with the shock/spring set up first rather than spend like 700$ something on a watts set up. It just sounds like his issue lays there. A year too late but mebbe the next guy that finds this like I did can get something out of this.
 
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