The Great Oil Debate

BruceH

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How long do you think it will be until you spin a bearing or the top end goes from lack of lubrication? AFAIK using the recommended weight has resulted in zero issues.

How much oil does a 5.0 4v need flowing through the bearings to maintain a wedge? Which viscosity allows for a wedge to form while still moving enough oil to prevent heat build up? How about the amount and pressure to make it to the top and maintain a wedge for the cams and lubricate the valve train?

Knowing that information then I'd ask what oils will maintain the flow and psi needed to protect the motor? Of course we will use the stock oil pump for the baseline.

How does all of that change with 10w-30? Other than being thicker at start up which affects the quality of the wedge in a negative way what do you get from it? Do you have a motor with increased clearances that needs a thicker oil on start up?

I run 10w-30 as well. Car is only driven in the Spring/Summer months though.


Ford Motorcraft 5w-20 is actually closer to 5w-30 and their 5w-50 shears down to a 40 weight in under 1000 miles.
 

JEWC_Motorsports

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Bruce do you not believe in the cafe standard? 5w20 was only brought to the us to meet that standard.
 

Grabber Blue 5.0

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Spin a bearing? Seriously? It is okay to think outside the box sometimes.
I trust independent testing based on UOA reports, not opinions.
 

BruceH

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Bruce do you not believe in the cafe standard? 5w20 was only brought to the us to meet that standard.

So you believe everything you read on the internet? I don't believe in a government conspiracy to make you run thinner oil. The tighter the clearances the thinner the oil that can be run and still protect the motor.

If 5w-20 gave better mpg then wouldn't it also give better protection? More friction means more parasitic loss. I don't believe that mpg would change between 5w30 or 20. I do believe that 5w20 will allow for more cooling because it will move more volume which will take more heat away. The bearings are protected by the oil wedge which forms as a result of the oil, psi, clearances, and volume.

I freely admit that I don't have the education in fluid dynamics nor do I have the test equipment or resources to test and disprove what Ford engineers have come up with. This is why I ask what test methods have been used to come up with the reason for a change.

What I do know is that mod motors run forever with 5w20. Why fix something that isn't broken? I choose to believe Ford over a government conspiracy theory.

There have been plenty of mod motors that have spun bearings as a result of using a thicker viscosity oil.

Run what you want, blindly follow the idiots over at bitog, it's your motor. All I'm saying is put some thought into what the oil does. Comparing shear or viscosities doesn't do much to tell you what it's doing in your motor. It does help an oil salesman to sell you something that is almost the same as what is speced when he doesn't have what you need.

Just make sure it's api certified.
 

BruceH

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Spin a bearing? Seriously? It is okay to think outside the box sometimes.
I trust independent testing based on UOA reports, not opinions.

What are the clearances of your motor? Oil viscosity is determined by clearances, psi, and the size of the oil galleries themselves.
 

Grabber Blue 5.0

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Explain this then Bruce. The new 5.0's call for 5w-20 but the track pack cars with the same engines and same clearances call for 5w-50. How can that be?

Another thing. The same new 5.0's in Australia with the same engines call for 5w-30. Right from the factory.
 

JEWC_Motorsports

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I believe what my oil sample and engine tell me. I ran the factory fill 5w20 for the first 1000 miles, after that i switched to Amsoil 5w20. At 5000 miles on the car it developed a tick that was only audible when the car was at operating temp. Ford said it was normal and that i should just change the oil and recommended i switch to 5w50. Instead of the 5w50 i changed the oil to Amsoil 10w30, i no longer have the tick. Now if my ford dealer doesnt recommend 5w20, what does that say for it. Now in your opinion why does one 5.0 run 5w20 and the other 5w50?
 

AutoXRacer

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Seems to me you just had to tear down and rebuild your new engine because it never broke in properly and was burning lots of oil? Once again (or still), you're overanalyzing the fuck out of this and somehow you'll end up fucking it up again instead of just doing what is proven to work. Sorry to be harsh but it pisses me off seeing you go on and on and on and on over something so fucking basic. You're never satisfied with the answer and insist on continuing to forge new paths because somehow you believe the answer hasn't been discovered yet.

Good luck in your quest for the 'perfect' oil. I hope one day you find it and prove us all wrong. In the meantime I'll just keep using what works and not worry about it.

Chill out Skwerl... I just added that quote to derail and add conversation. Found it interesting as it negates the whole "don't use synthetics in a new motor". But I think Bruce hit it on the nail...its dependent on rings and cylinder wall cut.

BTW, my motor was trashed because of my injectors...my cylinder walls got washed down and polished to a mirror finish. Nothing to do with oil or break-in procedure.

I am in no way planning on running synthetic oil in my new motor during the break-in. Like I have stated before, 2 intervals of Valvoline 10W-30 then whatever 5W-20 or 5W-30 full synthetic I default to.

I just hate that there are a multitude of oil out there, everyone says one is better than the other, but there is not really proof. So basically, they are all good oils. Like Bruce said, it really comes down to maintenance.

But I do want to learn more about this new natural gas derived oil...its just interesting to me and totally new. First time its available commercially.

Is this the future of oil...?
 
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BruceH

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Spin a bearing? Seriously? It is okay to think outside the box sometimes.
I trust independent testing based on UOA reports, not opinions.

What are the clearances of your motor? Oil viscosity is determined by clearances, psi, and the size of the oil galleries themselves.

I looked a few of them up for you. Camshaft is .001-.002", side rod standard is .0128", connecting rod bearing to crank is .0011-.0027", main bearing is .0009-.0018".

The oil pump has a pressure relief for high viscosity conditions. This allows for the engineered psi to be maintained provided the correct viscosity of oil is used.

This is just a guess but more than likely you are starving your motor during cold motor operation.

The circular clearances are actually half of what you see. This means that your main bearing clearance has from .00045-.0009" of a space all around it for oil to flow. What happens if not enough oil flows because it's too thick? Pressure increases which might open the pressure relief valve on the oil pump resulting in even less volume of oil. The bearings will also get hot and have metal to metal contact due to the loss of the oil wedge. Film strength is the last resort for protection, the primary protection comes from the wedge which is a moving, dynamic thing which is dependent on oil viscosity, psi, volume, and clearances. We want enough oil to provide physical separation but want it to also move so that heat is taken away.

Like I said I don't have the resources to do the testing so I trust the manufacturer.

I do like to ask people who use 10w-anything why they do it. What testing have they done? Even something as basic as motor teardowns. I've pretty much used 5w-20 in all my motors and haven't had an issue up to 699rwhp. I keep Ford clearances for this reason. The only one of my motors that I've done a complete tear down on looked great.
 

BruceH

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Explain this then Bruce. The new 5.0's call for 5w-20 but the track pack cars with the same engines and same clearances call for 5w-50. How can that be?

Another thing. The same new 5.0's in Australia with the same engines call for 5w-30. Right from the factory.

There is a big difference between 5w and 10w. I'd imagine the environment is different there as well. I also know that 5w-20 has only been available in Australia for less than a year. It's pretty hard to spec something that isn't available.

Do you track your car with extended periods of wot? Tell me what nascar runs? 0w-02 iirc. Why would that be? Clearances.
 

BruceH

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I believe what my oil sample and engine tell me. I ran the factory fill 5w20 for the first 1000 miles, after that i switched to Amsoil 5w20. At 5000 miles on the car it developed a tick that was only audible when the car was at operating temp. Ford said it was normal and that i should just change the oil and recommended i switch to 5w50. Instead of the 5w50 i changed the oil to Amsoil 10w30, i no longer have the tick. Now if my ford dealer doesnt recommend 5w20, what does that say for it. Now in your opinion why does one 5.0 run 5w20 and the other 5w50?

I'd imagine intended use. A motor that's going to be at high rpm for extended periods will have the clearances change with the extended heat. If I have it correct a hotter than normal motor will open the clearances up which would require a thicker oil to maintain psi and the wedge. The 5w part would be because the clearances are the same at start up as a non tracked motor, then they open up farther than normal at race temps.
 

Riptide

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I've seen oil analyses of non track pack GT cars that were road raced with 20 viscosity oil. And it was fine.


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AutoXRacer

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Damn, Bruce got me wondering if I should not use my 10W-30 that JDM speced to break in my new motor!!!

Maybe I should just use 5w-20/30...

Damn it Bruce...you make a good argument!!

Anyone need 8 quarts of VR1 10W-30? lol
Although my engine builder said my bearings looked normal after 10K miles. lol
Been running 10W-30 the whole 10K miles.

But I will ultimately go with what my engine builder specs.
 

BruceH

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I'll tell you right off that I don't agree with most of the oil experts on the internet. I consider what the oil is for and why it's in my motor. I've done uoas before but in reality they are mostly used for people who want to extend their drain intervals. I'd rather change the oil and filter on a more frequent basis that to run extended drain intervals.

I also gave up on svtp some time ago. There are a few good people there but not enough to slog through the mind numbing parroting that goes on.

 

JEWC_Motorsports

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UOA's tell the story for an individual car. Best thing anyone can do is send a sample in and adjust accordingly. I know what works for my car....
 

BruceH

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In the end you have to make your own decisions. I'm not sure why I feel the need to explain that there is much more involved in oil selection than comparing uoa, sheer, tbn, etc. Those things have their place but ultimately clearances are what determines the oil type and viscosity. At least for cold start and normal driving.

For some reason not very many people are even aware of what the oil does but they are experts at stats and specs of different oil types and brands. As long as the oil is api certified you are at least comparing apples to apples.

Damn, Bruce got me wondering if I should not use my 10W-30 that JDM speced to break in my new motor!!!

Maybe I should just use 5w-20/30...

Damn it Bruce...you make a good argument!!

Anyone need 8 quarts of VR1 10W-30? lol
Although my engine builder said my bearings looked normal after 10K miles. lol
Been running 10W-30 the whole 10K miles.

But I will ultimately go with what my engine builder specs.
 

Riptide

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I would like to see a single case of a modular engine failure proven to be oil related and due to using 20 viscosity oil.

If you ask me there is far too much paranoia in this subject area.


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BruceH

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UOA's tell the story for an individual car. Best thing anyone can do is send a sample in and adjust accordingly. I know what works for my car....

And I feel the best thing I can do is to change my oil and filter on a regular basis.

Uoa is great for heavy equipment to know when a teardown is required. Unless something else is going on most aren't going to freshen up the bearings because of a uoa only.

Once again this is only opinion.
 

BruceH

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I would like to see a single case of a modular engine failure proven to be oil related and due to using 20 viscosity oil.

If you ask me there is far too much paranoia in this subject area.


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It sells boutique oils. When 5w-20 first came out the real oil companies weren't selling the base stock to boutique oil blenders. Since they couldn't get ahold of it they came up with all kinds of reasons not to use it. IMO the best one is the government conspiracy. People always want to rebel against the man.
 

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