AutoBlip Review (In Progress)

kcbrown

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Gotta disagree with you on several points. Surprise, right?

Heel/toe is NOT something that I (or any other instructor I know) teach in entry-level pedagogy. Point of fact, I've never had a student come from a different discipline (drag racing, motocross, karting, etc.) that had even a glimmer of the concept of heel/toe. It was always a "new" skill to learn once the driver had the basics down, and was ready for a fresh challenge. I also advocate learning it on the street (highway, really), NOT on a race track. Simple reason: on the street you should never be anywhere remotely close to "the limit," and as such, a botched heel/toe downshift will just jerk you around inside the car.

I completely agree. I wasn't aware that heel-toe downshifting was something you guys avoided teaching on the track, but that's actually great to hear!

And yes, I also completely agree with the "walk before you run" approach. I was thinking more of the person who is in run group 2. They've demonstrated that they're "safe enough" on the track to be let loose on their own, but they're still very early in the learning stages. They'll be fine as long as they continue the learning approach you were talking about. Even so, the autoblip gives them one less way to screw up. I don't see much of a downside to that, and lots of potential upside.


Next point: Never, never, never shift in a corner. Shift BEFORE the corner! I don't care how fast you are with the stick and clutch (even 60mS for a DSG), the instant you disconnect the engine from the rear wheels, you have altered the dynamic set of the car. A "clutch kick" is how drifters get the car sideways. Why would you want to take a chance on doing that if you don't have to? ALWAYS enter the corner under power (unless you're intentionally trail-braking for a specific reason).
This is not always possible. Want an example? Turns 1, 2, and 3 at Sonoma Raceway. Those are what amount to a continuous series of turns, right out of the main straight, with turns 1 and 2 being the first and second parts of a high-speed sweeper with a decreasing radius. No straight-line braking to be had there -- you end up having to gently get on the brakes while still in the left-hander that is turn 2 in preparation for turn 3. If you're going to negotiate it properly, you have to downshift while turning. Fortunately, there's a small window during which you can do it. Because I'm not going for ultimate lap times or anything, I usually do it while coasting up the hill on entry to turn 2, but it is while under some cornering load. However, it is not while also under braking! I do my braking right before that point, just a little (and gently!) to keep the car's velocity in check.


Someone who is just learning, of course, can modify his line suitably to make a straight-line downshift and/or braking possible.


Bottom line: train the driver first.
Truer words were never spoken! It's why my modifications to my car have been so minimal when compared with others here. I'm still working on the driver mod! But I did replace my springs and rear sway bar with Boss 302 components because I wanted a balance and responsiveness change. The work on the driver mod up until that point made it possible for me to see what I wanted to change and how to go about it.

I don't know if you were aware of it, but I'm now running with run group 3 at NASA (and open passing groups in other track organizations), and I'm more comfortable there than ever before. Remember how I was when I first came here? It's amazing what good track time and driver mod training will do to you. :biggrin:
 
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kcbrown

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There's your problem....no coasting!!!!

Heh.

Well, in that case, I'm taking advantage of the hill to slow in the decreasing radius sweeper. Stay on the power and you end up with too much speed by the time you hit turn 2 (which is basically the final portion of the sweeper). Hit the brakes and you're too slow.

It takes just a gentle brush of the brakes in the early portion of the sweeper to get just the right deceleration curve going up the hill. And since you're basically at the limits of traction (or darned close to it), a gentle brush is all you can really get away with.

That's a fun part of the track. :biggrin:
 

SoundGuyDave

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Just a quick update on this... I just finished a weekend instructing at Road America, and worked with two novice students, one intermediate, and one advanced. Novice #1 was in a 2011 Mustang GT, current military (THANK YOU for your service!!) and had three previous track days at bucket-list tracks. Novice #2 was in a 2012 Boss302, and had five track days last year at Road America, and had previous instruction from another instructor that I know. Advanced driver was in a 2010 Camaro SS, with kitchen-sink mods to the motor, suspension and brakes, but hadn't driven in anger for two years. Intermediate driver, I'll get to in good time.

Only one of them could heel-toe.

Novice #1 was a blast to work with, and made huge improvements, and I actually pointed him here, at this forum. Hopefully he comes by and joins the fun! Heel/toe never really became an issue for us, we focused mainly on line and braking technique. He would essentially finish the braking event, turn in, then coast through the corner, and get the gear change done on the way out. It worked, and for where we were in the learning curve, it was fine. I did describe and demonstrate the heel/toe process, and gave that to him as homework for his next track day.

Novice #2 was an older gent (kinda like me!!) and also made BIG improvements. His personal best at RA was a 3:02 lap time (from the video he took, NOT an in-car lap timer, which I won't allow in novice instruction) with a 2010 Mustang GT, and he had his sights set on a 3:00 flat time with the Boss. He was a bit nervous about the car (who wouldn't be?!?!?), particularly since the first session was in the wet and he only had the car for two weeks. NEVER made it out of 4th gear, and this is on a track with multiple 130+mph straights... Once the track dried out, and we started pushing it up a bit, we found 5th gear (yay!), and his previous instruction left me with nothing to do concerning the line, so we focused on braking and power-on points and rates at exit. He thought I was nuts screaming "power!!" before apex, but... 2:58, on "normal" street tires, which is respectable for a novice-level driver. Heel/toe was a definite issue here, as he had to leave quite a bit on the table in the braking zone to allow for skipping down the gears. He tried the whole "brake to entry speed, do the gear change, then turn in" thing, but that was just a bit too busy for clean coordination. So, we compromised on a more normal braking point, and just did the sllllllooooowwwwww clutch release trick, forcing the motor up to speed. Occasional wheel-hop (release too fast) forced us to brake 100-150 early on the big corners, but was effective, if not efficient. He absolutely understood the benefits of heel/toe after we talked about the physics of drivetrain rpm matching and the impact on weight transfer under various conditions. Heel/toe is #1 on his list for homework before his next track day.

Intermediate was, honestly, not an assigned student. I wormed my way into the right seat. I just couldn't help myself. GT350. Say no more. Heel/toe was flawless, and my God, that car just makes torque EVERYWHERE, and the noise!! Hosanas/angels/harps, etc, all with one hell of a snarl. Hmmm? Driving technique? Yeah, whatever, but LISTEN TO THAT THING!!! ;-) As mentioned, his heel/toe was flawless, and I showed him a couple of secret-sauce racer tricks on the line, and we were both giggling as the thing was going slideways up the hill in T13,tracking out onto the access road. If the "regular" GT350 was this nuts, and it was, the GT350R has got to be positively MENTAL. I want one, and I haven't even driven one yet!

Advanced driver is one that I have worked with before, and really just needed a touch-up and reminder of proper technique. Coming from a 3000lb CMC Firebird with 262HP BACK to a 2010 Slowmaro SS with around 540HP and 4100lbs was a bit of an adjustment. Over-slowing on the way in, botched heel/toe, timid on the gas mid-corner; the usual ferric oxide when going back to driving after not doing it for a while. Pedal arrangement in the two cars are radically different, and I could see a proper attempt at heel/toe, but pedals were missed, etc. It wasn't a mess, but it wasn't pretty, either. ;-) It took a couple of sessions, but the rust did come off, and things improved rapidly as a result. Lap times were in the 2:44 range, on street tires, which is absolutely respectable, particularly given a "green" track that was soaked overnight, and still had "damp" sections.

So, how does this play into this thread? Heel/toe! That was the common thread with my three students (and the ride mooch), and in no case did I actually think that an auto-blip would be a benefit to any of them.

In student #1, it could have made him a "hero" and he could probably have gone faster, but in the end, that wasn't the goal for the day. He wanted to improve as a driver, and put his car on a legendary track without wrecking. Success.

In student #2, once we found 5th gear and stopped being afraid of the gas pedal, he was consistently fast, and was able to pull away from our "rabbit," a fellow instructor out in his bone-stock 2016 Mustang GT. Through the course of the day, his entry speeds into the braking zones were increasing steadily, and his "blip-depth" climbed correspondingly. I think we would have been fiddling with the auto-blip rather than focusing on the other driving aspects. Yes, the auto-blip would probably have let him "win HPDE," but again, that wasn't the point. His goal was to get used to a car he had owned for only two weeks, and to see if he could crack the 3-minute barrier. Success.

Intermediate driver had the technique down flawlessly, absolutely no issues. We had fun. Success for me; driver might have grumbled (good naturedely) about the extra ballast in the car...

The advanced driver already had heel/toe capability, but lost it through disuse. A little time in the car knocked the rust off, and all was good. Success.

Again, bottom line for me is to train the driver, and not rely on a gizmo as a crutch. It's like any other mod on the car don't add it until you need it. If you can't get rid of the understeer through driving techniques, then throw hardware at it to fix the problem. NONE of the drivers that I worked with were incapable of heel/toe, all four would (did) benefit from it, and the last is actually likely to wind up behind the wheel of a variety of iron, and if the auto-blip was relied on, it would be a disaster in the left seat of a GT3RS without one... Can you say dreidel???

Oh, and we did see a BEAUTIFUL Audi R8 V10 out there as well. Blew the motor SKY HIGH in The Carousel... "big bada boom" (bonus points for identifying the movie reference, it's an easy one!) and a huge smoke show, but surprisingly no oil down on the track at all. Must have let go internally, and chuffed half the pistons out of the exhaust. Still not sure how that happened, but...
 

Boaisy

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Once I started practicing blipping, I found that I was spinning less (in autocross) from downshifts. Now I practice it whenever I can (a little tricky in my dad's old car). As mentioned on the first page, clutch in during turning can hurt. Without keeping the engine and transmission RPMs matched, it can "jolt" the car around.
 

jayel579

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Oh, and we did see a BEAUTIFUL Audi R8 V10 out there as well. Blew the motor SKY HIGH in The Carousel... "big bada boom" (bonus points for identifying the movie reference, it's an easy one!) and a huge smoke show, but surprisingly no oil down on the track at all. Must have let go internally, and chuffed half the pistons out of the exhaust. Still not sure how that happened, but...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uwzg7SYZKF0
 

Vorshlag-Fair

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I think some folks are digging in their heels a bit too much. Being "purists" just to be obstinate. "Romantics", but not the complimentary definition of this word. Don't let them get to you - some people are just a pain in the ass (myself included!) :insane:

The "autoblip" boxes are becoming much more commonplace at HPDEs and I've worked with many HPDE students and customers that HPDE that have these boxes installed. They are pretty simple, and they work. We've installed a few for folks. They don't cause bad things to happen, they LESSEN the chances of bad things happening. So why are they bad?

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When I test drive a customer's car with one of these it does freak me out a little, sure, so I turn it off. But I learned to rev match downshift the first year I learned to drive a stick in the 1980s, and practiced on the street for months before it became second nature. Now I can't imagine driving on track without this skill... but this is one of the most difficult track skills to master. Not everyone can do it smoothly, as it requires a lot of hand-foot-eye coordination. I still see scores of W2W racers that can't rev match and brake. It .... just happens. Do I snicker a little? Sure. They are giving up time - not braking or accelerating every fraction of a second means they are COASTING.

But these BlipShift boxes are a boon for those folks. I feel that any driver aid that makes a driver SMOOTHER and less jarring on inputs like brake and clutch is a good thing. I've only ever had one HPDE1 student that could already heel-toe in 20 years of instructing, and its damn sure is NOT something we try to teach new HPDE students. Most of the time we have students ..... brake... then downshift at the slowest part of the turn (after braking, before the apex).... or just use one gear for the whole course. HPDE1 is about learning flags/safety, Situational Awareness, passing and being passed. We work on driving lines and braking points, sure, after the above bits are mastered.

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And the Mustang isn't exactly a beacon of high tech automobiles - these cars still had a solid axle until 2015 model (the 99-04 Cobra IRS was parts-bin rubbish). There's still no sequential transmission option and likely won't be for some time yet (due to torque levels and costs). Auto Blip rev matching features are coming factory installed on more and more manual transmission cars these days, however. No, BlipShift box isn't wired in via "ISO" standards but 99.99% of what we add to cars for track use isn't, either. They won't just spontaneously explode.

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When the EVO X came out with a Getrag built "Dual Sequential Gearbox" we got one the first model year, 2008. Wow, this was an amazing new piece of technology! Super easy for anyone to drive fast - one less burden needed (rev matching downshifts). You feel like an F1 driver... because they use similar transmissions. Driving with the DSG made us faster. More and more cars are moving to DSG transmissions and that's just.... natural progress. ALL "manual" transmission cars will go to this, eventually. We haven't had carburetors since about 1985 and that's OK, too.

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Anti Lock Brakes (ABS) have been prevalent in sports/sporty cars since about 1986 or so, and this was a HUGE boost in driver confidence. We go to great lengths to keep the ABS functional in our V8 swaps, because when it works IT REALLY WORKS. Some of the early systems were crude (econobox 2 channel stuff) but the 3 and 4 channel versions made those cars quicker, right from the earliest days. And they've only gotten better (with a few rare exceptions). Do the purists want to yank ABS away from new HPDE drivers? Of course not. I won't remove it for any reason in any cars I own, and I've been doing road course events for nearly 30 years. I know how to "threshold brake" without it, but nobody can control 4 calipers with one pedal 100's of times a second. Flat spots? Don't need 'em.

Traction Control / Stability Control, on the other hand, is generally a pretty POOR technology, as used by OEMs - with a handful of exceptions. We end up turning that off because 1) it makes drivers SLOWER on track and 2) it kills rear brakes when used. But.... MOTORSPORTS level traction control kicks major ass. Its the only way to make a higher horsepower RWD car fast with limited tire widths/compounds. Drag cars, track cars, autocross cars - the fast guys are using this, quietly. Motorsports Tracion Control makes the car FASTER. There are almost zero OEM systems that work well. Exception: the 2015+ Porsche GT3 traction control (coupled with torque vectoring differential) is TITS. Have driven that on track, very epic. Wow.

So let's not hate on this new box of wizardry - it works. If you can't rev match manually (aka: "heel toe") don't be ashamed to use a Blip Shift box. They are simple and they work. Anything to keep people from COASTING through corners is a good thing. Anything to keep people from just MASHING a shifter and forcing the transmission synchros into doing a LOT of work when downshifting is a good thing.

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And "engine braking on the street to save brake pads" is a bit ridiculous. What is cheaper to replace: street brake pads or your engine's piston rings? Think about it... :yaoface:

So don't be a "hopeless romantic" lusting for old, dead technology: Flathead engines. Carbs. Drum brakes. ABS-less braking systems. Pre-WW2 shock technology. "Points" ignition systems. Leaf sprung solid axles. Torque Arms. Instead embrace new technology when it works and makes you faster. Progress happens, it is inevitable. Unless you have a time machine, we all have to move forward to stay ahead of the pack. :)

Cheers,
 
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SoundGuyDave

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Terry, you're dead right! I have seen the light, and here's a peek at what the future holds:



Take the driver out of the equation, and let the engineers run it. No need for learning pesky skills like turn-in technique, or braking, or acceleration. ABSOLUTELY no need for impossible skills like threshold braking, heel-toe rev matching, or balancing between understeer and oversteer with the throttle. Hell, there's not even any need to learn racecraft or offline passing techniques! Just take your car to the track, plug in the "Leh Keen lap" mod, and let the car have fun! You get the bragging rights for buying the lap profile, and you can go home as the Intergalactic HPDE Champion!!

I think it's time for all of us "hopeless romantics" to hang it up, and find a new hobby, one where we actually participate.

In all seriousness, I want to be on record as advocating driver education and skill development. Learn the skills, and master them as best you can. THEN go the hardware/software route to create a safety net, which will allow you to USE THE SKILLS YOU HAVE with confidence right up to the limit.

Want to race for real? CMC: No ABS, no TC, and it's tight, close, hard racing from the standing start all the way to the checker. AI: No TC, ABS is optional, but penalized. Also close, hard racing. F1? It's a joke these days.

Then you get this:


No ABS, No TC, No auto-blip, just big meat, big power, and aero. Gotta drive that one.

Two vids, polar opposites. Which looks like more fun, Terry?
 

Vorshlag-Fair

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Terry, you're dead right! I have seen the light, and here's a peek at what the future holds

... compares blip shift to computer driven cars ...

I think it's time for all of us "hopeless romantics" to hang it up, and find a new hobby, one where we actually participate.
There's always Lemons Racing... :whistle1:

I agree that too many driver aids kills the enjoyment to the skilled and experienced drivers, and removes more and more of the driver from the equation. Something like the Nissan GTR is the epitome of this. Tons of driver nannies, lots of tech, more power than they admit to, but somewhat boring to drive (to me), makes anyone look fast - even automotive journalists! Doesn't mean these cars aren't fast.

But really the blip shift box is such a minor thing, and I think folks are blowing it out of proportion. I have seen countless noobs trying to learn to rev match downshift on track, and SPIN constantly. This is a skill that has a pretty high level of risk when you get it wrong, and its actually one of the toughest to master. I won't let my HPDE students "practice" this with me in the car, no thank you.

In all seriousness, I want to be on record as advocating driver education and skill development. Learn the skills, and master them as best you can. THEN go the hardware/software route to create a safety net, which will allow you to USE THE SKILLS YOU HAVE with confidence right up to the limit.
Well I'm all for learning skills and developing drivers, but where in the HPDE ladder / solo / instructor scheme of things do you teach rev match heel toe techniques? In HPDE1? In HPDE2? HPDE3?

I think its safer to actually learn to rev match on the street, in low to no traffic conditions. Or at an autocross, in a parking lot. That's where I learned, and didn't make an ass of myself on track trying to be an F1 driver in HPDE1. "Practicing" heel toe on a race track will most assuredly lead to spins and off track excursions. Once you have this muscle memory down, though, of course the track it is the right place to use it. Again - I'm not saying people shouldn't learn this skill, but that its more difficult for some to learn than others, and in these cases... a little computer help isn't terrible.

Want to race for real? CMC: No ABS, no TC, and it's tight, close, hard racing from the standing start all the way to the checker.
Hey, and I dig the concept of CMC. V8s, RWD, cheap tires, low cost. Lots of tight racing. But 260 whp in a 3200 pound car isn't exactly a gut wrenching tour de force iron man drive. ;)

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The main reason I don't run a CMC car myself (other than the high amount of carnage) is that these cars have relatively slow lap times. Like... Spec Miata slow (or slower). Yes, I have driven several CMC cars. And Spec Miatas. And while I have zero desire run in a CMC car or a Spec Miata, I respect those that do. We have worked on these and AI cars alike. I dig 'em.

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And knocking on CMC and Spec Miata lap times is a ironic, considering how slow one of my TT cars is right now (BMW, above)... getting passed by Spec Miatas at TWS two weeks ago, ugh. But we've got a lot of things left to work on and big changes in store. Now my 25 year old C4 is a good bit faster than CMC, and AI most times, and driving it on 25 year old shocks and reman brake master cylinders that tend to last one day max it is "a challenge to drive". ;)

AI: No TC, ABS is optional, but penalized. Also close, hard racing.
Well... the fast AI guys tend to use ABS. ;) And again, 9.5 or 9:1 power to weight isn't exactly "Ayrton Senna driving Monaco in the rain" levels of driving difficulty. But of all of the NASA classes, American Iron does look like the most fun. If there wasn't just so much contact I'd be out there with them. Seriously. Every time I drive an AI car it just feels right.

F1? It's a joke these days.
Well... its easy to say that from the cheap seats where we all sit. :) I suspect its a good bit more difficult than we all think. I have friends that have driven modern F1 cars. OK, one friend, who is more of an acquaintance. ;) We went to dinner a number of times, and it was fun listening to his stories (he was one of the modern era Stigs on Top Gear). This guy was a real master in any pro car he has driven... and he said F1 cars were much harder than it looked.

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Having to keep track of the in-car adjustments that the 2016 season cars have seems like a monumental challenge: differential modes, engine maps, front wing adjustments, KERS charging/discharging/metering, DRS use, fuel consumption levels, and more. Not to mention high speed aero capabilities that literally make your head swim.

But I still make fun of Maldonado as much as the next guy... :whistle1:

Then you get this:


No ABS, No TC, No auto-blip, just big meat, big power, and aero. Gotta drive that one. Two vids, polar opposites. Which looks like more fun, Terry?
Well this AIX video honestly looks like the least challenging: having half the power to weight of the entire field seems like shooting ducks in a barrel. Who needs to worry about cornering speeds and braking zones when you have TWICE the power of everyone else. You can drive a car like that at 80% and still beat everyone, if you are the only car in a field of 9:1 or 12:1 power to weight ratio cars and you have 5:1.

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Now if there was more than one car in AIX that day, with similar levels of grip/power/weight, then that's a challenge, yes. Those guys have to really manage their cars well or things break, fall off, and get nasty in a hurry. Those cars, in a group, look like a blast to drive. Super expensive to maintain, but fun. :)

Last I will chime in about blip-shift devices. I think its much ado about nothing, but some seem to think its a mortal sin. Hey whatever floats your boat guys. Don't let the haters keep you from trying these little devices. They are simple and they work.

Cheers...:party52:
 

Norm Peterson

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Terry, let's not confuse technologies that don't insert themselves into the control loop
old, dead technology: Flathead engines. Carbs. Drum brakes. ABS-less braking systems. Pre-WW2 shock technology. "Points" ignition systems. Leaf sprung solid axles. Torque Arms.
with those that do. I'll give ABS a pass on the strength of its ability to prevent flatspotting expensive tires, but that's about it.


The "autoblip" boxes are becoming much more commonplace at HPDEs and I've worked with many HPDE students and customers that HPDE that have these boxes installed. They are pretty simple, and they work. We've installed a few for folks. They don't cause bad things to happen, they LESSEN the chances of bad things happening. So why are they bad?

But these BlipShift boxes are a boon for those folks. I feel that any driver aid that makes a driver SMOOTHER and less jarring on inputs like brake and clutch is a good thing. I've only ever had one HPDE1 student that could already heel-toe in 20 years of instructing, and its damn sure is NOT something we try to teach new HPDE students. Most of the time we have students ..... brake... then downshift at the slowest part of the turn (after braking, before the apex).... or just use one gear for the whole course. HPDE1 is about learning flags/safety, Situational Awareness, passing and being passed. We work on driving lines and braking points, sure, after the above bits are mastered
This is what concerns me - I'm envisioning people claiming respectable lap times (if only to themselves) when it wasn't their skill with the available mechanical bits that got them there. I'd much rather shave a couple of tenths off my personal best (on any track) knowing that it was all because I got better, than knock off a couple of whole seconds because some electronic device could do any of it better.

Never mind that I've been rev-matching downshifts (normally double-clutching them) for at least 45 years. Can't remember any further back than that to the early 1960's and the 3-on-the-tree 1956 Chevy that I learned to drive on, but the concept of being kind to the mechanical bits has been with me for a very long time.

Once, back when I was in the work force, I counted up the number of shifts I was making over a round trip total of 11 commuting miles, and came up with ~100. About a third of those were downshifts not occurring when stopped. You might say that rev-matching, minus the heel-toe part, is second nature, and it wasn't hard for it to get there.

On track, I'm in an appropriate gear before turning in, always. Probably not using as much throttle at apex as I could, but not coasting either.

Auto-blip would likely have me fiddling with the settings every time I swapped between track and street driving. And buying a device for each of our three cars (they're all 'sticks'), which would then burden my wife and at least three other occasional drivers with unexpected car behavior. Or else risk having my own muscle memory either rev-match when not needed or not do so when it would be.

I understand the potential of auto-blip in competition, assuming class-legality. But in HPDE where a 'win' is being able to drive the car home at the end of the day? Hell, I'm just out there for fun and hopefully some skill set improvement. That means making the primary vehicle control inputs myself, to the best of my ability.


Norm
 

modernbeat

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Terry and I have spoken about all manner or tech in cars on track. Some of what he says is what I've convinced him of, and some of it we both agree on. And well, there are a few things I'd like to wind the clock back on, but there is no putting the genie back in the bottle.

My take on this is:

If you are in HPDE and are trying to build driving skills, you ABSOLUTELY should be taking a TON of data. Good data. And reviewing EVERY segment of every lap. This includes video. You don't need video overlay, that is good for showing off on youtube. You will need a lot of raw data and put together some math channels so you can interpret it well. That means sitting at a desk a couple days after the event and studying it. Not giving it a quick glance between sessions, though after you build some experience, that can help also. Once you are working on driving skills (as opposed to learning the line, or spotting flags, or observing other drivers on track in front and behind you (the point by discipline) you should be timing laps. I know that many HPDE groups don't, or won't time laps, but you should have an in-car predictive lap timer that gives you instant feedback. We like to use the AIM SOLOs for this, as they are inexpensive and easy to move from car to car. I see a lot of guys with phone apps trying to take data, and don't recommend them once you decide that track events are something you are going to stick with. I hate having a phone in the car on track. If you forget to disable stuff, you get calls, texts, and notifications while on track. And it's easy to damage or lose, and frankly, I don't want to lose or break my phone. If you want more or less tech, or stickier or harder tires, or more or less power, fine. Just get a reliable and consistent car while you learn these skills.

Once you are actually in a competition class though, you should be exploiting EVERY technology that you can afford and that the rules allow to go faster, last longer, and run cleaner, particularly if you can do it with less risk and maintenance. If you don't, someone else will. This applies to autocross, time trails, W2W racing, stage rally, hillclimb, drag racing and even TSD rally. Hell, it even applies to concours!

Now, there is a limit here. There are technologies that are too expensive, too fragile, and too difficult to use on a one-man team. More money, more understanding and the ability to seek assistance goes a long way toward getting technology into the car that works reliably and is set up correctly.

Bottom line, if you are in competition and can't heel-toe very fluidly, you may consider using an aid. Even if you -think- you are a master at shifting, braking and turning, you might still at least try out the new tech to see if it's faster than you are. If it is, you should switch.

Terry mentioned all the new tech that makes it easier to drive. One of the most noticeable I've seen recently are good multi-link rear suspensions. Many of them are amazing at steering the car back on line when the driver starts putting in a little too much slip-angle on it, as long as you don't muck it up too much with bad alignments or restrict it's movement too much (too much spring rate vs grip level).
 

El_Tortuga

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Not my cup of tea but to each his own. Buddy of mine loves his auto-blipper. I just don't want anything that detracts from the driving experience and I'm getting a hell of a lot better at it so I'm kind of proud of that. Its almost subconscious now most of the time and done right its truly a beautiful thing. I still struggle sometimes with relating street pedal heights and mild RPMs vs hot brakes and aggressive RPMs on track. Part of the learning curve...

I think Porsche is doing right by not putting DSG trans on some of their "driver" models e.g. GT4. But I do marvel at how fast the DSGs bang gears. Wow! I don't have that kind of money to spend so its not like I have to choose.
 

El_Tortuga

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Not my cup of tea but to each his own. Buddy of mine loves his auto-blipper. I just don't want anything that detracts from the driving experience and I'm getting a hell of a lot better at it so I'm kind of proud of that. Its almost subconscious now most of the time and done right its truly a beautiful thing. I still struggle sometimes with relating street pedal heights and mild RPMs vs hot brakes and aggressive RPMs on track. Part of the learning curve...

I think Porsche is doing right by not putting DSG trans on some of their "driver" models e.g. GT4. But I do marvel at how fast the DSGs bang gears. Wow! I don't have that kind of money to spend so its not like I have to choose.

Auto-blipper is kind of like that "built not bought" argument. I think its cooler for the guys that fab something from scratch, but I've got no shame doing the Mustang "catalog car" thing. Fortunately, the Mustang aftermarket supports whatever flavor of mild to wild you like and often multiple choices at the same level. I've only fabbed a couple of things where I thought the price was out of whack or I wanted a slightly different solution.
 

SoundGuyDave

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I agree that too many driver aids kills the enjoyment to the skilled and experienced drivers, and removes more and more of the driver from the equation. Something like the Nissan GTR is the epitome of this. Tons of driver nannies, lots of tech, more power than they admit to, but somewhat boring to drive (to me), makes anyone look fast - even automotive journalists! Doesn't mean these cars aren't fast.

We agree on this completely. The GTR, to me, is just numb. The computers are sooo intrusive, that it damps driver feedback. In the end, Bozo-the-fucking-CLOWN could drive one of these fast, with his clown shoes on!

The part of your statement that goes directly to my point, however, is "I agree that too many driver aids kills the enjoyment to the skilled and experienced drivers, and removes more and more of the driver from the equation." This is what my bone of contention is with ANY device, like the blip-shift, that impacts and degrades driver training. HPDE is for driver training. Teach them the basics, then more and more advanced techniques as they are developing, until you have a well-rounded, skilled, experienced driver that can successfully transition to the competition environment should they so choose.

But really the blip shift box is such a minor thing, and I think folks are blowing it out of proportion. I have seen countless noobs trying to learn to rev match downshift on track, and SPIN constantly. This is a skill that has a pretty high level of risk when you get it wrong, and its actually one of the toughest to master. I won't let my HPDE students "practice" this with me in the car, no thank you.
I won't either! There is a place and time to learn heel-toe, and it's NOT on a race track, with the car performing at 100% (or as close as the student can get it to that point).


Well I'm all for learning skills and developing drivers, but where in the HPDE ladder / solo / instructor scheme of things do you teach rev match heel toe techniques? In HPDE1? In HPDE2? HPDE3?

I think its safer to actually learn to rev match on the street, in low to no traffic conditions.
Again, agreed 100%, as I said in post 59 and post 60 of this thread... I know they're hard to find, I mean they are both SOOO old, a whole page ago... ;-)


Or at an autocross, in a parking lot. That's where I learned, and didn't make an ass of myself on track trying to be an F1 driver in HPDE1. "Practicing" heel toe on a race track will most assuredly lead to spins and off track excursions. Once you have this muscle memory down, though, of course the track it is the right place to use it. Again - I'm not saying people shouldn't learn this skill, but that its more difficult for some to learn than others, and in these cases... a little computer help isn't terrible.
Exactly. Post 59 again.


Hey, and I dig the concept of CMC. V8s, RWD, cheap tires, low cost. Lots of tight racing. But 260 whp in a 3200 pound car isn't exactly a gut wrenching tour de force iron man drive. ;)
It is when you're three-wide for half the track, nose-to-tail for the rest, and on the last lap there were four lead-swaps. Oh, and no contact at all... Right now, CMC is the most exciting racing to watch in our region. And again, very little contact. And 260HP in a 3050lb car that LOVES to change ends at the drop of a hat meets the criterion for "gut wrenching" to me! I had my reasons for moving on from CMC, but the racing and people were not factors.

And knocking on CMC and Spec Miata lap times is a ironic, considering how slow one of my TT cars is right now (BMW, above)... getting passed by Spec Miatas at TWS two weeks ago, ugh. But we've got a lot of things left to work on and big changes in store. Now my 25 year old C4 is a good bit faster than CMC, and AI most times, and driving it on 25 year old shocks and reman brake master cylinders that tend to last one day max it is "a challenge to drive". ;)
Think how much faster it would be with Auto-blip, ABS, TC, KERS and regenerative braking!! Sorry, couldn't resist. Remember, racing isn't necessarily about lap time, it's more about position. Running out front by a 6-second margin is not any more fun than a TT session, or a solid track-day session in the advanced group. Battling for 5th place with four other cars, for 40 minutes? Now THAT is fun!!


Well... the fast AI guys tend to use ABS. ;) And again, 9.5 or 9:1 power to weight isn't exactly "Ayrton Senna driving Monaco in the rain" levels of driving difficulty. But of all of the NASA classes, American Iron does look like the most fun. If there wasn't just so much contact I'd be out there with them. Seriously. Every time I drive an AI car it just feels right.
Again with the contact? Are your Texas boys unable to complete a lap without crashing??? ;-) Yes, we have contact in GL/MW region as well, but it's fairly uncommon, outside of the typical "racing incident" where you might wind up with a door donut. Focus on the 50/50 rule and less on show-car shine, and you'll do a minimum of bodywork through the season. Also, buy the American Iron Bodywork Kit and keep it in your trailer. It's a 2x4 and a 10lb sledge. Comes in handy once in a while! AI is an interesting series, where you have so many paths to "the number" that work. Boss302S? Cha-ching, change tires, done. Or go the other route. We have an 80s era Firechicken that's so lightweight and cut up that he runs a bone-stock gen-1 350SBC and hits the 9:1 ratio with a restrictor. And yes, he's fast. And his tires last forever. Regional champion, and did well at Nationals as well... Has a race budget annually that is a fraction of your tire budget for the year. Seriously. Lots of sweat equity in that car!


The F1 discussion:

Having to keep track of the in-car adjustments that the 2016 season cars have seems like a monumental challenge: differential modes, engine maps, front wing adjustments, KERS charging/discharging/metering, DRS use, fuel consumption levels, and more. Not to mention high speed aero capabilities that literally make your head swim.

But I still make fun of Maldonado as much as the next guy... :whistle1:
The drivers in F1 (with a few exceptions) ALL operate on a level that you and I cannot even conceive of. Unfortunately, they're in a series that is so rules-laden that it has become comical. And don't even get me started on Bernie's antics! When was the last time we saw a seriously decent battle to the finish, with more than two cars involved and fuel wasn't an issue? Oh, and here's a different version of the F1 wheel from Kimi's car:

ay_1024925401.jpg


I particularly like the "Jenson" button... ;-) Despite the computer-controlled DCTs, though, I would bet every single driver on the F1 grid can heel-toe... ;-)


Last I will chime in about blip-shift devices. I think its much ado about nothing, but some seem to think its a mortal sin. Hey whatever floats your boat guys. Don't let the haters keep you from trying these little devices. They are simple and they work.

Cheers...:party52:
Ah, I'm not a hater, to be honest. It's just that the bulk of the people reading this thread are firmly in the "educational" portion of the HPDE ladder. If a racer sucks at heel-toe, then this is a killer piece to help them manage their race. If a TT driver is looking for that last 0.001 in lap time, the Auto-blip will let them keep steadier brake pressure, and they can find that time. If an HPDE driver has been trying for a few months and just can't get the heel-toe thing together, even after coaching, then yes, this takes that workload off his shoulders. For somebody that has never set a wheel on a race track before? No. Learn the technique to the best of your ability (post 60 in this thread), then revisit the concept later if you still need to.

Again, to me it's all about portability. Until EVERY car that they may drive has rev-matching, or a DSG, it's likely that they'll get into trouble if they never even learned the basics of the techniques. Is the Auto-Blip some sort of devil-spawned mortal sin? Not at all. But why would a driver want to make a conscious choice to handicap their development?

Spec Miatas may be slow, but man are they a blast to drive! And no rev-matching, ABS or TC between the driver and the lap. It's also THE single most popular club-racing class. Period. If you want competition, that is certainly a solid place to look for it. Since the cars are so regulated and restricted, they are essentially identical (and yes, I know about the $10K "stock" engine builds!), so it really comes down to the driver. Unlike in a GTR, to bring this full-circle.

For me, this whole "argument" (in the traditional sense) is about philosophy, rather than a like/dislike of a single product. I'll stand by my point: Driver training is "Job One," and anything that gets in the way of that is an impediment to becoming the best you can be. Once you have achieved a modicum of capability, though, it becomes an informed choice.

What I CAN'T support is the notion that a novice "needs" this, or that heel-toe is "too hard to learn" because they don't and it isn't. What I would hate to see is a legion of new drivers that tried to heel-toe once, got the car a little loose, and immediately gave up on it and went with a box. What happens to those drivers when they change to a car that doesn't have the box? They're now wayyyyyy back on the learning curve, and they honestly didn't need to be. If, after your level-best attempt at learning to heel-toe, you just can't do it, for whatever reason, then yes, by all means, grab an Auto-Blip. If you haven't racked up at least 500 street miles seriously trying to learn heel-toe, though, it's too soon to give up on what could be an invaluable skill later in your driving "career."
 

Ken04

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Originally Posted by SoundGuyDave
Gotta disagree with you on several points. Surprise, right?

Heel/toe is NOT something that I (or any other instructor I know) teach in entry-level pedagogy. Point of fact, I've never had a student come from a different discipline (drag racing, motocross, karting, etc.) that had even a glimmer of the concept of heel/toe. It was always a "new" skill to learn once the driver had the basics down, and was ready for a fresh challenge. I also advocate learning it on the street (highway, really), NOT on a race track. Simple reason: on the street you should never be anywhere remotely close to "the limit," and as such, a botched heel/toe downshift will just jerk you around inside the car.


2nd day of Bondurant school, heel and toe downshifting.

6' 5" and size 14 shoes, not a lot of room down there to maneuver. Driving shoes helped some. Autoblip will help more.

I do track days for enjoyment. I could care less what's pure, I want to find the best lines, what suspension settings work best and the limits of throttle out of turns. If I get to the point where I have nothing left to master I'll turn the autoblip off. But I doubt I'll ever get there since I have a full time job, 6 kids and 9 (soon to be 10) grandkids. I only compare my lap times to what I've done previously.
 

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