About to start turbo build finally!

Sky Render said:

Ever heard of science? Because science says you get worse fuel economy on E85 because it has 30% less energy than gasoline.

Click to expand...

No, science does not say you'll get 30% worse gas mileage with e85 at all. It says that a gallon of gasoline burned has 30% more energy than a gallon of e85 burned. Combustion engines only actually convert a fraction of that burned energy into motion. Cars optimized for e85 would be thermally more efficient, and convert a greater fraction of that burned energy into motion. Whether it's better (mileage or dollar wise) is still up in the air, because as far as i know, no auto manufacturer makes an e85 only vehicle.

E85 is still government sponsored (I believe, I'm looking for further proof that the legislation ended) and is also declining in production if you look at the graphs.
There is legislation in place sponsored by Big Oil to keep it from being sponsored, branded, or labeled. They cannot even list it for sale on the sign.
How can it live?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/E85_in_the_United_States

RocketcarX said:

E85 is still government sponsored (I believe, I'm looking for further proof that the legislation ended) and is also declining in production if you look at the graphs.
There is legislation in place sponsored by Big Oil to keep it from being sponsored, branded, or labeled. They cannot even list it for sale on the sign.
How can it live?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/E85_in_the_United_States

Click to expand...

What do you mean declining in production? I gave you the graphs that said the US made 506 million gallons more in 2015 than 2014, and 524 million gallons more in 2016 than 2015. That's an increase (of the increase) of 18 million gallons in one year. Also unsure of what you mean by can't even list it for sale on the sign. They are listed for sale on the signs all over the place. I drive by one everyday. Just today it was $1.54 per gallon.

Graham3913 said:

No, science does not say you'll get 30% worse gas mileage with e85 at all. It says that a gallon of gasoline burned has 30% more energy than a gallon of e85 burned. Combustion engines only actually convert a fraction of that burned energy into motion. Cars optimized for e85 would be thermally more efficient, and convert a greater fraction of that burned energy into motion. Whether it's better (mileage or dollar wise) is still up in the air, because as far as i know, no auto manufacturer makes an e85 only vehicle.

Click to expand...

Whatever "optimization" you do to make an E85 engine more "thermally efficient" would also work on a gasoline motor, because they are still both internal combustion engines. And you would still burn more ethanol because of its lower energy content.

Are you next going to start talking about the mythical 100-mpg carburetor that the Gubment and Big Oil hid at Area 51?

Sky Render said:

Ever heard of science? Because science says you get worse fuel economy on E85 because it has 30% less energy than gasoline.

Click to expand...

I was reporting my real experiences with the fuel. You don't have to believe them.

What was your experience?

Sky Render said:

Whatever "optimization" you do to make an E85 engine more "thermally efficient" would also work on a gasoline motor, because they are still both internal combustion engines. And you would still burn more ethanol because of its lower energy content.

Are you next going to start talking about the mythical 100-mpg carburetor that the Gubment and Big Oil hid at Area 51?

Click to expand...

There is a whole lot more going on than just btu measurement. Ethanol thrives on high compression, 14.5:1 is the optimal compression. Run gasoline in that motor and it won't survive.

Run E85 in a motor designed for gasoline and the lower compression won't get the most out of it. Combine that with a flex fuel tune/motor that only changes stoich and it's not going to do be efficient.

I've used E85 off and on for about 8 years now. IMO it has cut into the profit of speed shops that sell race gas because that is where I hear that it's going away.

The first time I saw an E85 pump was 1996.

BruceH said:

I see a 15 to 20% difference in fuel use going from 92 pump gas to e85. That's real world driving in town and on the highway. However, my motor is 12:1 and the tune is for e85. Not just the stoich is changed but so are all the spark advances throughout the load and rpm ranges, not just spark advance at wot.

Click to expand...

You said you got worse fuel economy running E85 over standard gasoline. So you're saying the exact same thing I'm saying.

Sky Render said:

You said you got worse fuel economy running E85 over standard gasoline. So you're saying the exact same thing I'm saying.

Click to expand...

True, but it wasn't the 30% figure you stated. Of course, I think you already understood that.

BruceH said:

True, but it wasn't the 30% figure you stated. Of course, I think you already understood that.

Click to expand...

Nope, I said that it is 30% less energy. I never quantified what the actual effect on fuel economy was, just that it is reduced.

Sky Render said:

Whatever "optimization" you do to make an E85 engine more "thermally efficient" would also work on a gasoline motor, because they are still both internal combustion engines. And you would still burn more ethanol because of its lower energy content.

Are you next going to start talking about the mythical 100-mpg carburetor that the Gubment and Big Oil hid at Area 51?

Click to expand...

No you can't run regular gas in a high compression (15:1) engine like you can with E85, or it will detonate like crazy. The higher compression you can run, the more energy you can extract out of the fuel you burn, though there is diminishing returns the higher you go.