Vorshlag "Street Pro" = 9 seconds

stevbd

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I recently installed Vorshlag's "Street Pro" suspension on my 2011 GT and saw a 9 second improvement in lap times at Palmer up here in MA. Went from a 2:03.9 to a 1:54.6. I hoped the car would be better but I didn't expect this kind of difference. Only other before vs. after change was a Whiteline adjustable PHB to align the rear axle.

In fairness some of the improvement probably is me learning the track better. But the improvement in squat, dive, and roll was dramatic and the camber plates seemed to give a lot more front end grip.

Other mods on the car (both before and after) are 18x9.5 Apex EC7 wheels, 275/40/18 MPSS square setup, and the standard FRPP 14" Brembo brake upgrade kit.

Overall I'm thrilled. And thanks to the guys at Vorshlag for spending plenty of time with me on what was a very modest sale for them.
 

oldVOR

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We have the Vorshalg Street-Pro setup on my sons '05 with FRPP K springs and it was a night/day difference going from the OEM setup to the Bilsteins/springs/camber plates.

As you've noted, they completely changed the handling characteristics of the car.
 

Boaisy

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I had the Eibach springs on my kit, and loved them. The rest of the suspension was Whiteline with the exception of BMR LCAs.
 

stevbd

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Of course you always want more and part of me kind of wishes I had gone with coilovers. The extra stiffness and adjustability would be nice. But that gets to be 2-3x the cost depending on how you set it up. This feels like a reasonable DD compromise and should be a good platform to learn on for quite a while. I still commute in this thing so it's ok as is for now.
 

Norm Peterson

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Don't overlook the value of the car being more 'composed' at speed on the track, which is a separate matter from whatever increases in ultimate car capabilities resulted from their installation.

It's not really a 'driver mod', either, though it certainly helps here. It's part of what gives you the confidence to drive it harder, and you're likely to feel more relaxed driving it harder/faster after a few carefully selected mods than you were when you were driving it slower in its original condition before.


Norm
 

stevbd

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Norm, those are really excellent points. And they probably apply even more in my case because although Palmer is beautiful it is absolutely full of late apexes, granite walls, and concrete barriers. I can't really think of a good spot to go off. Combine that with me being a track noob, previously I was backing off all over the place because the car felt so unsettled. In this latest track day I definitely was able to keep my foot in it a lot more.

Just my gut tells me that maybe half or a little more of the improvement was due to the increased composure giving me more confidence, with the rest being the negative camber and very modestly lower COG actually creating more front grip. But I'm no engineer. I will say that a really experienced (and brave) driver probably would get the stock platform lap time a lot closer to the "suspension mod" lap time.
 

bujeezus

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They sell them sans springs and upper mounts too. They are on my X-mas list.
http://www.vorshlag.com/product_info.php?products_id=642{77}732{31}729
 

stevbd

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What next handling mods will net me more cornering grip, as opposed to just better handling composure? Current mods are in the OP. I think I want to stay on street tires until I get a little more experienced on track. Tips and advice appreciated, thanks.
 

Boaisy

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Maybe sway bars. I had Whiteline adjustable's.

For LCA's I had BMR's TCA022 with the Elastomer bushings instead of the poly. Those went on the same time I put on the StreetPro kit, and it was awesome. Had the relocation brackets too since it was lowered. BMR's poly bushings will wear out after a while from road racing. BMR Kelly stated that they were only meant for the drag strip anyways.

I was running on 18x10 EC7's with BFG Rivals, so probably not too much of a difference from what you have now.

UCA I had a Whiteline, but I wasn't too happy with it. Felt like it really didn't change anything. I was about to switch to a UMI UCA. The thing with spherical bearings is it will add NVH. It didn't bother me, but it may bother you.

Also, kind of suspension related, but I had a Eaton TrueTrac installed when I had the Whiteline Watts link put in. The diff helped a bit.
 
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stevbd

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Very nice, you pretty much had my wish list. How would you rate sways, LCA/relo brackets, watts link, and Eaton Truetrac in terms of increasing cornering grip? I guess the Eaton is kind of in a separate category? I read with interest Sky Render's write up about tuning understeer/oversteer with the LCA relo brackets.

Thanks!
 

Boaisy

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Well, the order of mods that I went was kind of unorthodox compared to what most recommend on here. Most usually say go for wheels/tires, springs/shocks, then the rest. I just added what I could afford at the time.

Sway bars was the first mod I ever put on, suspension wise. Once you learn how to properly set up sway bars, it can be a bit beneficial, but obviously the other mods will have greater effects. If I had to go back and do it again, I may put sway bars towards the bottom of the to do list. I believe Terry from Vorshlag said it is usually more of a "fine tuning" tool on the suspension.

I think what helped the most was the TrueTrac and Watts Link. Some may argue that a aftermarket adjustable PHB is just as effective as a Watts Link, and vice versa. I just went with a Watts Link because of the ability to center up the axle a lot better than with the PHB. The TrueTrac, by design, is very useful when taking corners since it is applying proper power to the dominant tire whereas the factory system is going to have 1 dominant/1 slave tire. When I had this upgrade installed, it was pretty nimble. The rear felt a little more "controlled" whereas with the stock system, it could come around without notice. Only downside with the TrueTrac, and there is a thread about this on SVTPerf, some units can exhibit a tank track noise with the drivetrain is unloaded (coasting down hill, driving in neutral, etc.) It didn't bother me, but it would be one of the first things passengers would notice riding in the car.

LCA's, for me, is hard to tell how it works vs. stock. When I bought mine (used), it already had BMR poly/poly LCA's. I wasn't sure how much they were helping/hurting until I went with the Rod/Elasto combo. Now at the time, according to Kelly, I was the only one running the Rod/Elasto (instead of Rod/Poly) TCA022 combo, but he did say it was going to be a world of difference. Let's just say, with the StreetPro combo, and the LCA kit he gave me, the car drove around corners like a go kart. It was a straight up blast. With autocross's I was running consistently up there with Z06's (non-stingray). HPDE's it was a rocket. I think the only improvement, after that last batch of upgrades, would've been true coil-overs.
 

stevbd

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Ugh, this is confusing. Sounds like I need all of it, but I'm trying to do things in stages rather than just throw a bunch of parts on at once. There are lots of threads about individual upgrades but not many about the proper order of things for better cornering after springs, shocks, and tires.

It sounds like the watts link and Eaton - maybe do both at once - would be a good next investment, followed by LCA and finally sways? With the goal of getting around corners faster, are there other parts I should be thinking about instead? Where's the Easy Button?

Thanks for your advice, it's very helpful and much appreciated.
 

ddd4114

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Honestly, if you're not sure about what parts to buy, I wouldn't buy any of them. I'm not sure what you're after in terms of improved grip, but after basic suspension and tires, you're well into diminishing returns.

When I first upgraded from my completely stock suspension to a "basic" spring/shock combination, I dropped 3-4 seconds on every course. This was after running pretty consistent lap times for several events, so I knew the courses fairly well. Since then, I've spent a few years trying a bunch of combinations of sway bars, shocks, springs, and alignment settings, and I haven't been able to change my lap times by more than a few tenths. Once you've stabilized the dynamic "alignment" of the wheels (including adding lots of static camber) and tuned the balance of the car, you're already using the tires near their capability. Due to class rules, I had to run the same tire and weight, so I had basically hit a plateau.

To really make noticeable changes in grip, you'll basically have to get better tires, drop a LOT of weight, or add aero bits (which I would discourage at your level). I'm sure you hear this a lot, but I think the biggest differences in lap times will come from spending your money in seat time, not other parts.

For the most part, I only "upgrade" something when I break it. If you still have an OEM (non-Torsen) differential, you will eventually smoke the clutch discs. That would be a good time to switch to an Eaton diff (or something like it). If you want to try it earlier to see the effect, I think it's worth it because you'll eventually have to upgrade anyway. I switched from the OEM LSD to a T2-R, and corner exits became cake walk. Before the switch, I had to use a lot of throttle control to prevent lighting up the inside rear tire. Despite that, I only decreased my lap times by a few tenths. In my region, there aren't many corners that severely limited me by having to modulate the throttle more. If I had a lot more grip, more power, or a looser setup, then the better differential might have given more improvement. Maybe tracks in your region would reward you more with an upgraded diff, but I don't know.

I can see some of the other parts improving response and/or predictability, which might improve lap times. However, they will not add a lot of grip by themselves. I would hold off on them for now.

I know, I know, I'm kind of a buzzkill, but I think you will be happier in the long run by saving your money. Once you can identify exactly what changes you need to make and understand why, then go for it. Also, I don't know what your long-term plans are, but if you eventually want to compete either W2W or in TT, you might be limited on what you can do to your car anyway. It wouldn't make sense to dump a lot of money into parts that you'll just have to remove and sell.
 

Voltwings

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I know, I know, I'm kind of a buzzkill, but I think you will be happier in the long run by saving your money. Once you can identify exactly what changes you need to make and understand why, then go for it. Also, I don't know what your long-term plans are, but if you eventually want to compete either W2W or in TT, you might be limited on what you can do to your car anyway. It wouldn't make sense to dump a lot of money into parts that you'll just have to remove and sell.

This. Its the hardest thing because you get on the forums and read about all these great parts and decide you need all of them, when in actuality you dont. It wasnt until my 6th track weekend, so 12th track day, that i finally realized i was out driving the car; the car was finally holding me back and not the other way around. Car was pushing like crazy so i made some adjustments for more rotation. Once i hit the next limitation (again, that isnt me) i'll buy that part, but i gotta find it first. Its hard because i have a wish list a mile long, but i just have to hold out haha.
 

Pentalab

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I think what helped the most was the TrueTrac and Watts Link. Some may argue that a aftermarket adjustable PHB is just as effective as a Watts Link, and vice versa. I just went with a Watts Link because of the ability to center up the axle a lot better than with the PHB. The TrueTrac, by design, is very useful when taking corners since it is applying proper power to the dominant tire whereas the factory system is going to have 1 dominant/1 slave tire. When I had this upgrade installed, it was pretty nimble. The rear felt a little more "controlled" whereas with the stock system, it could come around without notice. Only downside with the TrueTrac, and there is a thread about this on SVTPerf, some units can exhibit a tank track noise with the drivetrain is unloaded (coasting down hill, driving in neutral, etc.) It didn't bother me, but it would be one of the first things passengers would notice riding in the car.

LCA's, for me, is hard to tell how it works vs. stock. When I bought mine (used), it already had BMR poly/poly LCA's. I wasn't sure how much they were helping/hurting until I went with the Rod/Elasto combo. Now at the time, according to Kelly, I was the only one running the Rod/Elasto (instead of Rod/Poly) TCA022 combo, but he did say it was going to be a world of difference. Let's just say, with the StreetPro combo, and the LCA kit he gave me, the car drove around corners like a go kart. It was a straight up blast. With autocross's I was running consistently up there with Z06's (non-stingray). HPDE's it was a rocket. I think the only improvement, after that last batch of upgrades, would've been true coil-overs.

The tru-trac + watts link combo, both done at the same time, is a worthwhile investment. The oem LSD won't last. I used the WL watts link, so the differential cover was coming off anyway. Don't forget the the rear axle catch can. The rod / elasto combo sounds like a winner.
I can barely hear the whine of the tru-trac when unloaded, it's a non issue really, and drowned out by most exhaust systems.
 

stevbd

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I'm not sure what you're after in terms of improved grip, but after basic suspension and tires, you're well into diminishing returns.

So this is kind of what I know in the back of my mind but probably what I needed to hear again. I think what I want probably doesn't exist - substantially more mechanical cornering grip without using r comps. My problem is that I've been enjoying the huge cornering improvements that come with better tires, springs, shocks, and camber plates and I want to stay on that same trajectory but I understand that isn't realistic. I've been pretty good about doing one thing at a time but that's been easy so far because the obvious problems and solutions have been easy to spot up to now.

I've been getting a fair bit of track time with this current setup and am pretty consistent in my lap times. Overall I'm very happy with the car, it feels balanced and is easy to drive fast.

I definitely need to figure out this rear axle catch can solution, oil is misting over the back of my car on track days and it made a pretty good mess of my right rear wheel.
 

stevbd

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A buddy of mine posted up a video of my best Palmer lap, plus the lap before. It's kind of boring and the audio is bad but I would love any tips or advice. I have a hunch about several things I'm doing wrong but would appreciate any free coaching. Thank you!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X5wLfmK4EoI
 

Boaisy

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I would try to keep the hands at 3 and 9. You might end up shifting your hands less in the corners as well in doing so. When I drove mine, I rarely moved the hands in turns. I just feel that shifting the hands too much around the wheel risks "jerking" the car. You don't want to pretzel the arms either.
 

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