3v on3 turbo best upgrade for street race ?

aboody roush

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Hi
i want ask about on3 upgrade turbo for mustang 2010 4.6 3v :



1 - what best choice i take for street race i want 650 - 850 hp and Best turbo for 3k RPM full boost spool ( i thik i mean from rpm 3000-3500 turbo give me full boost to 7000-7500 i ask because i dont understand anything about turbo ) ?



my car sometime i use DD


car built engine
weisco piston 9.8cr , manley h beam rods, , cobra forged crankshaft
and now it is have vmp 1.9 tvs run 16 psi i am happy with VMP SC but i want more HP by turbo
car tune by Lito



thank you
 

NUTCASE

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There are so many ways to skin a cat on this one.

ON3 will work but there are other ways also. It depends on exactly what you want and what you are willing to do.

And I am pretty sure this forum does not condone street racing, though we will help you learn how to make a car hook. Which once you start getting big power on the street you achilles heel becomes how are you going to use it all.
 

JeremyH

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I will try to add some tech to this thread, Its a balance when it comes to sizing the turbo and turbine ar size. Its easy to get extreme ends of the spectrum. IE you can go for fast spool and transient response with more low end torque but you give up rpm range up top and the ability to hold power up there. Or you sacrifice that low end torque, response and spool time, but make more power up top that holds to a high rpm.

And its also related to the power and boost level. More specifically pressure ratio, which is a number you can get from a turbo calculator that is a function of 4 things. Engine displacement, volumetric efficiency of the motor, engine speed(rpm) and boost pressure.

This can be tricky to do and may take trial and error and does have other factor such as kit design, vehicle weight, trans, gearing, tire height etc.

You may get a turbo that has a good balance of spool and top end power but it will go inefficient as the pressure ratio factors change. Ie it may be super responsive and hold power to 7k rpms at say 12psi but then you up the boost a few psi and now it can only hold power to 6500 rpm. Few more psi and now power is dropping off hard at 6krpms.

Going up in turbo size turbine/ar/compressor may now keep power to that higher rpm at the higher pressure ratio but you will sacrifice response and spool time. And peak torque and power will shift higher in the rpm range.

So its a balance when you want to have your cake and eat it to. Selecting a turbo that's a balance of both to fit your setup is the easiest way to try and do it. So in short if you want to maximize lowend you have to get a turbo that is just big enough to support your max power and rpm goal and no larger. As you go larger on the turbo you move the surge line and efficiency of the turbo though. Which simply could mean you need more boost than you did to get to the same pressure ratio or effect how well the turbo performs at lower boost pressures.

You mentioned you want 650-850hp at 7000-7500rpm that's a wide range. You would have to build for that top number. You have to get a big enough turbo to make 850 at 7500 rpms, just keep it mind it wont have the same low end response of a turbo that would do 650hp at 7k rpms when sized for that.

Things that help widen your room for error or ability to get a balanced setup. Billet extended tip compressor wheel designs. They have lower inertia and flow more air on smaller wheels ie response of a small wheel with flow of a larger wheel. They also flow better at higher pressure ratios. They achieve this with smaller hubs and wider vanes with a revised wheel design so even though inducer diameter is the same you get more response and flow.

From there when having to go larger on the turbine size and turbine housing ar to support the topend power and rpm you want, you can get more lowend response by moving the turbine closer to the engine. When its 1-2 ft from the head vice 6-9ft away with a front mount you will load the turbine faster as there is less exhaust volume to fill pre turbine. Trans type plays a roll an auto with a stall will load better than a manual ie you can get away with a larger turbo on an automatic car. A heavier flywheel and driveshaft will load better as well. Rearend gear and tire height also can be played with to load better.

So essentially you have to really size for the power and rpm you want and you will get what you get when it comes to spool and transient response outside of playing with the factors I stated above.

Some data for you that I have gathered, a 6765 turbo with .96ar or .81ar housing will hold power to 7krpms at 650rwhp roughly 14-18psi range. It can be pushed to 18-20psi 700-725rwhp but power will not hold to 7krpms. As it does at the lower power and boost level. Some more rough average data 6871 750-800, 7275 850-900hp, 7679 900-1000hp. These size will maintain spool at these power levels and as always can be pushed but you start lowering flow up top at high rpm.

Last thought, is what are your intake manifold, heads, cams, valve spring setup. 7000-7500rpm is a bit of stretch for a 3v boosted setup with out mods here. Most will be in the 6500-7000rpm range here otherwise your exceeding the ve of the 3v motor setup, and adding boost wont add power where the engine cant move air anyway.
 
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06JET

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Dang JeremyH.
I'm not even thinking about a turbo and I appreciate all the time and info you put into that post. Very interesting. Thanks for the food for thought.
 

aboody roush

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I will try to add some tech to this thread, Its a balance when it comes to sizing the turbo and turbine ar size. Its easy to get extreme ends of the spectrum. IE you can go for fast spool and transient response with more low end torque but you give up rpm range up top and the ability to hold power up there. Or you sacrifice that low end torque, response and spool time, but make more power up top that holds to a high rpm.

And its also related to the power and boost level. More specifically pressure ratio, which is a number you can get from a turbo calculator that is a function of 4 things. Engine displacement, volumetric efficiency of the motor, engine speed(rpm) and boost pressure.

This can be tricky to do and may take trial and error and does have other factor such as kit design, vehicle weight, trans, gearing, tire height etc.

You may get a turbo that has a good balance of spool and top end power but it will go inefficient as the pressure ratio factors change. Ie it may be super responsive and hold power to 7k rpms at say 12psi but then you up the boost a few psi and now it can only hold power to 6500 rpm. Few more psi and now power is dropping off hard at 6krpms.

Going up in turbo size turbine/ar/compressor may now keep power to that higher rpm at the higher pressure ratio but you will sacrifice response and spool time. And peak torque and power will shift higher in the rpm range.

So its a balance when you want to have your cake and eat it to. Selecting a turbo that's a balance of both to fit your setup is the easiest way to try and do it. So in short if you want to maximize lowend you have to get a turbo that is just big enough to support your max power and rpm goal and no larger. As you go larger on the turbo you move the surge line and efficiency of the turbo though. Which simply could mean you need more boost than you did to get to the same pressure ratio or effect how well the turbo performs at lower boost pressures.

You mentioned you want 650-850hp at 7000-7500rpm that's a wide range. You would have to build for that top number. You have to get a big enough turbo to make 850 at 7500 rpms, just keep it mind it wont have the same low end response of a turbo that would do 650hp at 7k rpms when sized for that.

Things that help widen your room for error or ability to get a balanced setup. Billet extended tip compressor wheel designs. They have lower inertia and flow more air on smaller wheels ie response of a small wheel with flow of a larger wheel. They also flow better at higher pressure ratios. They achieve this with smaller hubs and wider vanes with a revised wheel design so even though inducer diameter is the same you get more response and flow.

From there when having to go larger on the turbine size and turbine housing ar to support the topend power and rpm you want, you can get more lowend response by moving the turbine closer to the engine. When its 1-2 ft from the head vice 6-9ft away with a front mount you will load the turbine faster as there is less exhaust volume to fill pre turbine. Trans type plays a roll an auto with a stall will load better than a manual ie you can get away with a larger turbo on an automatic car. A heavier flywheel and driveshaft will load better as well. Rearend gear and tire height also can be played with to load better.

So essentially you have to really size for the power and rpm you want and you will get what you get when it comes to spool and transient response outside of playing with the factors I stated above.

Some data for you that I have gathered, a 6765 turbo with .96ar or .81ar housing will hold power to 7krpms at 650rwhp roughly 14-18psi range. It can be pushed to 18-20psi 700-725rwhp but power will not hold to 7krpms. As it does at the lower power and boost level. Some more rough average data 6871 750-800, 7275 850-900hp, 7679 900-1000hp. These size will maintain spool at these power levels and as always can be pushed but you start lowering flow up top at high rpm.

ok i will buying Precision 7275 i found in ebay :
What do you think about this link that ?
http://www.ebay.com/itm/PTE-7275-tu...-74mm-7575-t76-t72-t78-t88-7675-/281259373178


Last thought, is what are your intake manifold, heads, cams, valve spring setup. 7000-7500rpm is a bit of stretch for a 3v boosted setup with out mods here. Most will be in the 6500-7000rpm range here otherwise your exceeding the ve of the 3v motor setup, and adding boost wont add power where the engine cant move air anyway.

I really appreciate your help and I have benefited greatly from your information about turbo. :clap:
 

JeremyH

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Dang JeremyH.
I'm not even thinking about a turbo and I appreciate all the time and info you put into that post. Very interesting. Thanks for the food for thought.

:beer:

I really appreciate your help and I have benefited greatly from your information about turbo. :clap:
ok i will buying Precision 7275 i found in ebay :
What do you think about this link that ?
http://www.ebay.com/itm/PTE-7275-tur...-/281259373178


Looks like an entry level turbo with an older cast compressor wheel design. Fyi description says its a 7475. Also list H cover which is larger than standard so has 3" outlet vice 2.5" so will be a tighter fit and require some modification to the coupler or piping to fit the on3 kit.

My first turbo on the mustang was a cast wheel 67mm precision, it was lazy in 1st gear on my setup, went searching for more performance and response down low, I upgraded to a billet wheel 67mm. And here was the difference in response.

Red was cast wheel, blue is billet wheel, at 14psi and 4,000 rpms the billet is up 100rwhp/100rwtq over cast wheel design!

hptq4k.jpg
 
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aboody roush

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:beer:




Looks like an entry level turbo with an older cast compressor wheel design. Fyi description says its a 7475. Also list H cover which is larger than standard so has 3" outlet vice 2.5" so will be a tighter fit and require some modification to the coupler or piping to fit the on3 kit.

My first turbo on the mustang was a cast wheel 67mm precision, it was lazy in 1st gear on my setup, went searching for more performance and response down low, I upgraded to a billet wheel 67mm. And here was the difference in response.
best regards for Jeremy . he is help me for custom turbo from comp turbo .


now i want go to remove roush SC in my car . what i need parts use after remove ? like intake manifold, alternator bracket,
please help me in this swap 2010 roush m90 to on3 turbo
thank you :help:
 

aboody roush

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Please help me about what i need after remove m90 supercharger
Because my car roush 427r and i want swap m90 to on3 turbo
 

Marble

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best regards for Jeremy . he is help me for custom turbo from comp turbo .


now i want go to remove roush SC in my car . what i need parts use after remove ? like intake manifold, alternator bracket,
please help me in this swap 2010 roush m90 to on3 turbo
thank you :help:

I hear you on this. I've got a PTE 7576 GT42 waiting to go on the car. Got to pull off the KB, get a new motor together and then do the turbo.

I think anything Jeremy recommends for that application is spot on. There are lots of other things that go into making a car like that hook and go too...
 

aboody roush

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I hear you on this. I've got a PTE 7576 GT42 waiting to go on the car. Got to pull off the KB, get a new motor together and then do the turbo.

I think anything Jeremy recommends for that application is spot on. There are lots of other things that go into making a car like that hook and go too...
and for now i am still wait someone for help me
 

RED09GT

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You'll need a stock or ford racing intake manifold, or you could have an upper plenum fabricated to fit on the M90 manifold to start with.
 

aboody roush

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You'll need a stock or ford racing intake manifold, or you could have an upper plenum fabricated to fit on the M90 manifold to start with.
Actually now i have ford racing manifold and stock manifold.
what about holley manifold for turbo application
Holley 829081 Sniper EFI Fabricated Intake Manifold For 05-10 Ford 4.6L 3v

thank you
 

aboody roush

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What are you doing about putting that power to the ground?
in my location i dont have Drag race.
this power for street car i want kill some bikes , chevy car. LOL:boti:
Someone ask how HP your car now? i told only 450rwhp . LOL
 

46addict

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Actually now i have ford racing manifold and stock manifold.
what about holley manifold for turbo application
Holley 829081 Sniper EFI Fabricated Intake Manifold For 05-10 Ford 4.6L 3v

thank you

The last I heard on the Holley manifolds is they require a switch to a cable throttle setup and have hood clearance issues so you'll need to lower the engine or get a cowl hood. Not to mention they are not intended for boost. Stronger units designed for boost are still under development.

http://www.s197forum.com/forum/showpost.php?p=2381961&postcount=107
http://www.s197forum.com/forum/showthread.php?t=126197&highlight=holley+intake

Unless you are running huge cams and stage 3+ ported heads I don't see why you would need anything bigger than a FRPP manifold. If you are wanting something that looks more "racey," get the S&H manifold.
 
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RED09GT

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I just contacted JPC and their cast 3v intake is available again. It is pricey at $1150 but it is a site to behold.
 

slackinoff

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........or you could have an upper plenum fabricated to fit on the M90 manifold to start with.

It would be interesting to see if you could intercool the charge air (on a turbo setup) with a modified setup from a supercharger manifold. Any supercharger heats the the air more per psi so the his kit would probably cope with more hp?? Just thinking out loud here on a random thought and possibly the most unnecessary route to go.
 

07 Boss

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It would be interesting to see if you could intercool the charge air (on a turbo setup) with a modified setup from a supercharger manifold. Any supercharger heats the the air more per psi so the his kit would probably cope with more hp?? Just thinking out loud here on a random thought and possibly the most unnecessary route to go.

Why go through all the trouble? Just buy one. Air to water intercoolers are not new or anything.
 

slackinoff

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Why go through all the trouble? Just buy one. Air to water intercoolers are not new or anything.
Why? just for the hell of it. Especially if it's already set up. Just make an adapter plate for the top of manifold and you are good to go feeding your boost via your turbo.

Sent from my LG-H910 using Tapatalk
 

Marble

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Sounds way more complicated and involved then you describe. Putting one or two A2W intercooler/heat exchangers in your bumper area would be way easier and probably more efficient.

But it would be entertaining to see you do it!
 

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