Hot rod cams install went wrong, need info.

Keckjr · Jan 17, 2016

Just noticed the the far rear roller follower on the passenger side is literally cracked into two peices. I've retrieved the peices and the very far edge of the last lobe has a slight knick in it but I beleive it's out of the path of where the follower rolls. Could this be what's causing my ENTIRE issue? It really felt like it was fighting the starter to even crank over the entire time but it's the last valve so it's one of two for that cylinder.

BruceH · Jan 17, 2016

Keckjr said:
Just noticed the the far rear roller follower on the passenger side is literally cracked into two peices. I've retrieved the peices and the very far edge of the last lobe has a slight knick in it but I beleive it's out of the path of where the follower rolls. Could this be what's causing my ENTIRE issue? It really felt like it was fighting the starter to even crank over the entire time but it's the last valve so it's one of two for that cylinder.

I don't think it would cause your issue. The motor will still run with one cylinder down and that probably didn't even stop the cylinder from firing.

I do think that you are very lucky to catch it before something worse happened.

eighty6gt · Jan 17, 2016

Why did the follower break? Dont these blow up if you make some minor mistake installing and things aren't perfectly seated?

Keckjr · Jan 17, 2016

Okay even worse news.. not only is the rocker toast but the far rear valve has thrown one of the two valve locks.. does that mean that the piston came up and pushed the lock out?

TexasBlownV8 · Jan 17, 2016

Uh oh. That side is f'd up now.

Keckjr · Jan 17, 2016

Yup. Makes me sick.. all my marks stayed the same, the phaser never dropped out of the chain and the wedge was tight as hell so idk.. hoping I can pressure up that cylinder and reseat the lock and it hold pressure but I'm doubting it at this point

BruceH · Jan 17, 2016

Keckjr said:
Okay even worse news.. not only is the rocker toast but the far rear valve has thrown one of the two valve locks.. does that mean that the piston came up and pushed the lock out?

I doubt it. Another possibility is that the rocker wasn't completely seated when the cam was changed. It then bounced around and jammed up the valve spring retainer which allowed a keeper to come off.

Do you have a valve spring tool? You are going to need one.

Keckjr · Jan 17, 2016

No but the other tech I work with does and he'll let me use it.. honestly I'm betting that it wasn't seated properly.. so I'm going to pressurize that cylinder tomorrow and listen for leaks in intake and exhaust. If it blows I'm gonna just pull the timing cover and the head.. if it doesn't then I'm going to try to attempt to compress the spring and reseat the valve lock and pull the timing cover and go from there.. really really hoping I don't have to pull the head but it's looking like a 50/50 shot..

BruceH · Jan 17, 2016

So either way you have to pull the front cover. Why not pull it now, time it so you know it's correct, and have it ready to go?

I did a mock up of the intake valve, rocker, and a keeper to give you a visual of the space between the rocker and keeper. I don't see how a an out of time cam could cause the keeper to come loose, the retainer would have to be compressed from an outside source like the unseated and/or broken rocker.

FYI putting the cylinder to tdc should keep the valve up. It has for me anyway. You probably know this but I'll repeat it anyway, a spark plug can be converted to a fitting to pressurize the cylinder with.

Keckjr · Jan 17, 2016

Yes I'm going to pull the timing cover either way so that I know for sure that it is in time. And yes I do beleive in my mind that it was the unseated rocker that caused THIS mess but not the overall problem. but I don't think it would have went back together so easily and not have moved the key position on the phaser when I went back IF it did slip a tooth on the bottom gear. On the passenger side the key was at the 6 o'clock position when I removed it and the same position when I mated it back with the cam so I don't think my wedge slipped, but I'm not going to risk doing all this work and it not work right this time so I am going to make sure and pull the timing cover to be sure because like you said I think it would run MUCH better than it did even with one rocker not opening a valve because it was only 1 of the intake valves that came off so the other should have at least made it fire. That's assuming that the top 2 valves are the intake and the bottom valve is the exhaust.

BruceH · Jan 17, 2016

Keckjr said:
Yes I'm going to pull the timing cover either way so that I know for sure that it is in time. And yes I do beleive in my mind that it was the unseated rocker that caused THIS mess but not the overall problem. but I don't think it would have went back together so easily and not have moved the key position on the phaser when I went back IF it did slip a tooth on the bottom gear. On the passenger side the key was at the 6 o'clock position when I removed it and the same position when I mated it back with the cam so I don't think my wedge slipped, but I'm not going to risk doing all this work and it not work right this time so I am going to make sure and pull the timing cover to be sure because like you said I think it would run MUCH better than it did even with one rocker not opening a valve because it was only 1 of the intake valves that came off so the other should have at least made it fire. That's assuming that the top 2 valves are the intake and the bottom valve is the exhaust.

Top valves are always intake. Just think what would of happened had it started for a prolonged period of time? Might of dropped that valve and caused all kinds of issues. In a way the motor not starting was a good thing this time.

Keckjr · Jan 17, 2016

Imy hoping so, still scared witless that it may have somehow over lifted because of the rocker being positioned incorrectly and hit the piston causing the rocker to split. So I'm still looking at a possible bent valve and until I further check the cam out I might even have to go back with stocks and this all be for nothing if it hurt the cam lobe worse than i thought because I can't afford more

Keckjr · Jan 17, 2016

Haven't had any more work done yet but I figured id show an image of what I meant when I say the follower split in two. the little peice on the rag beside it is the other half of the lock. Like you said, lucky so far. Hope tomorrow proves that to be right. Will keep you all updated. Thanks BruceH for the technical info. Does anyone have any timing images or anything to help once the cover is off? I guess I can search it either way.

Wes06 · Jan 17, 2016

oh damn that looks ugly

BruceH · Jan 17, 2016

Keckjr said:
Haven't had any more work done yet but I figured id show an image of what I meant when I say the follower split in two. the little peice on the rag beside it is the other half of the lock. Like you said, lucky so far. Hope tomorrow proves that to be right. Will keep you all updated. Thanks BruceH for the technical info. Does anyone have any timing images or anything to help once the cover is off? I guess I can search it either way.

It's in here: http://iihs.net/fsm/?dir=159&viewfile=Engine.pdf

Keckjr · Jan 17, 2016

My browser won't load it for some reason. I'll just have to find it some other way. Thank you though

BadPiggy · Jan 18, 2016

Bruce's manual link won't work for me either.
I have it saved in a different format.
Try this.....

http://www.s197forum.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=1206&d=1184258119

Wild White Pony · Jan 18, 2016

Posted these pics earlier in another thread but here are pics of the timing marks with the cover off.

After you finish installing the cam and everything is snug not final tightened on the cam caps do the wiggle test on the followers. Each one should wiggle side to side and rock back and forth smoothly. Then final tighten to specs rotate engine manually do the test again a couple more times. You will know if a follower isn't seated properly before you start the engine.

Snap some pics of the camshaft and post up, maybe it's ok.

DiMora · Jan 18, 2016

TexasBlownV8 said:
beware of those timing marks!!!!! their location relative to being spot-on CHANGE when turned!!!! If you install the chains on the marks with covers off, then turn the engine one complete turn, the chain marks will no longer be lined up with the sprocket marks.

If one side is on the mark but the other is not, you have a problem.
Pull the front cover and go from there. Hopefully you didn't bend a valve.

In Bruce's link to the timing marks, the dimple on the face of the lower sprocket should be at a 6:00 position and be where both chains line up to on the bottom.

That's because it takes two complete revolutions of the crank on a 4-stroke engine to get "back to where you started". Turn it another 360 degrees and it should all line up perfectly.

ford20 · Jan 18, 2016

If you need more pictures tmcolgr's build thread I'm sure has all of the pictures you will ever need.

Hot rod cams install went wrong, need info.

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