Top Speed at Various Tracks?

Boone

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I'm considering a rear gear change in my car, and I'm trying to decide between 3.31 and 3.55. What are the top speeds S197 drivers are seeing at various race tracks? At 7000 rpm in 4th with a 3650 (1:1) and as short a tire as I think I'll ever have (25.5" diameter), 3.31 will top out at 160, and 3.55 will top out at 150. I want the 3.55 to aide corner exit so I can use 3rd gear as much as possible, but I'd like to know if anyone is seeing over 150 mph on track.

I've run HPDE's at two tracks on the east coast. My top recorded speeds are as follows:
110mph CMP
136mph VIR (used 5th and could easily have seen 145 without the shift)

If I do some traveling, am I going to run into problems at tracks that can see 150 mph+? What speeds are out there beyond my 3 hour radius?
 

Norm Peterson

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How much power does your car have, what axle gears does it have now, what is your exit speed out of the preceding turn, and what do you need to brake down to for the next turn?

I have only a little more than stock power and am only able to see 125-ish at NJMP/Thunderbolt, NJMP/Lightning, and Mid-Ohio. At NJMP/T'bolt I'm carrying about 100 mph through T12 onto the main straight (about 2100 ft total before 65-ish mph T1), and there's almost nothing left when my 5900 rpm upshift light flashes just before I start braking. With a lot more practice, I might be able to get away with braking 100', maybe 150' later, which *might* add another mph. Two at most. I am using 3rd everywhere except from a little before T3 to just before T5, and from a little before T12 to just before T1.

That's with 3.55's with 25.9" MPSS tires and Aim Solo datalogging.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L2noaEvV7uw


Norm
 
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Boone

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How much power does your car have, what axle gears does it have now, what is your exit speed out of the preceding turn, and what do you need to brake down to for the next turn?

To answer:
Car is just shy of 420whp
Currently 4:10 rear gear
Exit and entry speeds will vary per track. Just looking to stay out of 5th gear.

I'm not trying to tune for any single corner/straight combination. I want to keep the rear gear as high numerically as possible to hit top track speeds in 4th. If I can hit all the expected straight speeds with a 3.55 (150mph), I'll go with it. By using the highest numerical gear, I won't loose as much on corner exit (compared to the 4.10), and I may save a few shifts by avoiding 2nd gear.

My mind is not made up that I'm going to change the rear gear ratio, but based on the sheen in my rear gear oil, I'm going to be doing something back there. I have to consider the gains and losses over a complete lap and not just the chest pounding Top Speed Award that nobody gives out ever.
 

Norm Peterson

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Understood. The reason I asked for that information was because it sounded like you have either a forced-induction 4.6, a wild NA 4.6, or a decently tuned Coyote, and I'm trying to relate that to my NA 4.6L with its mild FRPP tune.

I was looking at a decently detailed map of CMP and trying to compare your peak speed there against my peak speeds on the tracks that I am somewhat familiar with and also have detailed maps for. At either of the NJMP tracks, I doubt you'd peak much more than 15 mph more than I can reach, or low 140's. Maybe mid 140's at Mid-O based on what I know a few SS Camaros have been able to run up to there.

Best I can do.


Norm
 

Mike Rousch

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I'm considering a rear gear change in my car, and I'm trying to decide between 3.31 and 3.55. What are the top speeds S197 drivers are seeing at various race tracks? At 7000 rpm in 4th with a 3650 (1:1) and as short a tire as I think I'll ever have (25.5" diameter), 3.31 will top out at 160, and 3.55 will top out at 150. I want the 3.55 to aide corner exit so I can use 3rd gear as much as possible, but I'd like to know if anyone is seeing over 150 mph on track.

I've run HPDE's at two tracks on the east coast. My top recorded speeds are as follows:
110mph CMP
136mph VIR (used 5th and could easily have seen 145 without the shift)

If I do some traveling, am I going to run into problems at tracks that can see 150 mph+? What speeds are out there beyond my 3 hour radius?

355 is going to be your best bet, at VIR I go right about 151 in back stretch going to about marker 1 1/2 at around 428rwhp with a 275/35 ( 25.5 i believe is the height ) at around 7100ish, race weight is around 3700. This is also in pretty good air to, in the heat of the summer knock about 5-6MPH off that top speed. The motor is a Coyote and MT82 but its the same 1:1.

I have tried a 3.31 before and ended up back with the 3.55s, VIR, Summit, RA, and Dominion this is a perfect gear. Here is a video so you can see how this gear works with data attached, start around the 4:19 mark for the clean lap. Also to my knowledge you are not going to find many tracks on the east coast other then Daytona that has a longer strait then VIR.

https://vimeo.com/146696753
 

Boone

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a wild NA 4.6

Norm, close. It's a 5.3L NA.

I have tried a 3.31 before and ended up back with the 3.55s, VIR, Summit, RA, and Dominion this is a perfect gear.

Mike, I can't beat "been there... done that." My extensive research shows what your personal experience confirms. I'll be slaying tarmac with a set of 3.55s next year. For the record, I LOVE my car, but when I watched your video, I want your car. The MT82 makes great use of 3, 4, and 5. I personally have never gotten the wave around by a McLearen.
 

Mike Rousch

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Norm, close. It's a 5.3L NA.



Mike, I can't beat "been there... done that." My extensive research shows what your personal experience confirms. I'll be slaying tarmac with a set of 3.55s next year. For the record, I LOVE my car, but when I watched your video, I want your car. The MT82 makes great use of 3, 4, and 5. I personally have never gotten the wave around by a McLearen.

Thanks! Yours should work out the same but it will be 2-3-4 instead of my 3-4-5, I have a customer that has the 3650 and 3.55s behind a coyote and when i drive his its just like driving mine but one gear backwards. You have any plans to make it back out anytime this year? NASA is next weekend and the fall fest (SCMC club) is Nov 12/13. Plenty of track time with those guys and its a really good group also!
 

SoundGuyDave

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For me (N/A stock internal 4.6) most tracks are in the 125-130 range, with a couple (Road America and Mid Ohio) significantly higher. Tune to the typical is what I would advise. If you optimize for the "big tracks," you'll be leaving a lot on the table with the more typical club tracks. FWIW, I run a 3.73 gear. It's too short for RA, borderline for Mid-O, but maybe a hair too tall for the club tracks, where I can't quite get to the top of 4th.

Also, for the fund of useless knowledge, the gear ratios in the 3650 and MT82 are identical 3-4 and 4-5 respectively. The MT-82 has a slightly closer ratio 3rd, which is nice, but the over/up and back/down change is a little more awkward than the straight up/down in the 3650. Pick your poison.
 

Boone

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Mike, my 3rd and 4th are identical to your 4th and 5th (Edit: Like Dave just noted a moment ago). My 2nd is 2.0 and your 3rd is 1.69, that's the gear I wish I had. When I drop to 2nd, it's on to third in the blink of an eye. Your third gear ratio makes more sense on slower corners at VIR (1, 4, Oak Tree, and 14). I currently only use 2nd at Oak Tree. That may need to be adjusted once the 3.55s go in and all my revs will drop 13.4% at a given speed. I'll try dropping to 2nd gear one corner at a time as I get more adept at heel/toeing.

I have two excursions remaining on my 2016 calendar:
1. An AutoX in November in Winston-Salem, NC
2. A golf tournament in December in Myrtle Beach, SC

#2 doesn't meet the criteria for discussion in this forum, but my wife doesn't differentiate... she just knows I'm gone. Nothing else on the track schedule at this time.

IIR, you have a shop in the Richmond, VA area. PM me if you want to set up the rear gear and do a checkup / recommendation session on my car over the winter. Also, if you have a spare set of balls around, maybe you could loan them to me so I can go through the Uphill Esses at 135mph too.
 
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Boone

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Tune to the typical is what I would advise.

And good advise it is.

I would call my "home" track VIR, and the 3.73 would give me 142mph at 7000rpm (push to 7200rpm redline and hit 146mph). Right near the top of what I'd expect to see. 3.73s would keep 2nd out of play in more corners, which is good and bad.

I have calculated every scenario (really, I made an Excel spreadsheet), and I think I'll still go 3.55 and lessen the stress on the motor. If I ever do find my balls and go as fast as Mike, I'll be set up to do so. I'll struggle through everything else I encounter whether it be a track or auto-x.
 

Mike Rousch

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Mike, my 3rd and 4th are identical to your 4th and 5th (Edit: Like Dave just noted a moment ago). My 2nd is 2.0 and your 3rd is 1.69, that's the gear I wish I had. When I drop to 2nd, it's on to third in the blink of an eye. Your third gear ratio makes more sense on slower corners at VIR (1, 4, Oak Tree, and 14). I currently only use 2nd at Oak Tree. That may need to be adjusted once the 3.55s go in and all my revs will drop 13.4% at a given speed. I'll try dropping to 2nd gear one corner at a time as I get more adept at heel/toeing.

I have two excursions remaining on my 2016 calendar:
1. An AutoX in November in Winston-Salem, NC
2. A golf tournament in December in Myrtle Beach, SC

#2 doesn't meet the criteria for discussion in this forum, but my wife doesn't differentiate... she just knows I'm gone. Nothing else on the track schedule at this time.

IIR, you have a shop in the Richmond, VA area. PM me if you want to set up the rear gear and do a checkup / recommendation session on my car over the winter. Also, if you have a spare set of balls around, maybe you could loan them to me so I can go through the Uphill Esses at 135mph too.

Yeh your corner selection with the 3.55s is dead on, That is the only places you will be in second gear. Sucks you cant make it out for Nov VIR, The same club has a event first of Feb ( weather permitting ). Hopefully you can get to that one! I watched your video and you looked really good out there, That 5th gear mess is killing you. Your lines look really good to all except for oak tree, That line your taking entering is more of a momentum line that a miata would take. Fix that, extend the brake zones just a bit, put the right gears in, and carry about 10 mph into the uphill esses all the way past turn 10 and you will shave off about 8-10 seconds off your time!

Take your time and you can get up to those speeds and all that, Its just seat time and feeling comfortable in your car and getting your brain to believe it will work. I can certainly help you with that when you are ready. I am a instructor so its no problem to get in the car with you if you want some advise! I will PM you the shop info, I can certainly help you out with all that stuff to!
 

Boone

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Your lines look really good to all except for oak tree

Oak tree was one of my focal points of the weekend. I know it's still a mess, but you should have seen it at the start of the weekend. UCKING FUGLY!!!! The only time I have ever been fast through there was when I put two in the grass on the left side entering the braking zone down the hill. Instructor and I had a pucker moment. I gathered it up, but forgot to downshift for Oak Tree and crawled out of it in 4th gear. It was still my fastest lap of the weekend, so I know there's time to be made there. :)

Speaking of my driving abilities (or lack thereof), I'm uncomfortable turning and braking hard, and to pile on to the issue, I was working on heel/toe. Combined, I way under-performed in all the braking zones requiring a down shift. Just means I can still lower my lap times by addressing the low hanging fruit. I'll see if I can make that happen in February 2017.

The main reason I want you to check out my car is for the confidence factor. I've been going to Pro-Dyno, and they are good, but they aren't road racers. Looking forward to improving and meeting you this off season.
 

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Oak tree was one of my focal points of the weekend. I know it's still a mess, but you should have seen it at the start of the weekend. UCKING FUGLY!!!! The only time I have ever been fast through there was when I put two in the grass on the left side entering the braking zone down the hill. Instructor and I had a pucker moment. I gathered it up, but forgot to downshift for Oak Tree and crawled out of it in 4th gear. It was still my fastest lap of the weekend, so I know there's time to be made there. :)

Speaking of my driving abilities (or lack thereof), I'm uncomfortable turning and braking hard, and to pile on to the issue, I was working on heel/toe. Combined, I way under-performed in all the braking zones requiring a down shift. Just means I can still lower my lap times by addressing the low hanging fruit. I'll see if I can make that happen in February 2017.

The main reason I want you to check out my car is for the confidence factor. I've been going to Pro-Dyno, and they are good, but they aren't road racers. Looking forward to improving and meeting you this off season.

Yeh, Oak tree is a really hard corner to master, in our cars you have to turn it into two corners. All the other things you mentioned ( braking and turning ) will all come with seat time and once you get confident in what your doing you will start to advance really quick!
 

Boone

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I was just planning to get going on my rear gear change to 3.55, and I decided to compare different available trannys. I'm comparing the following:
TR3650 (currently in car)
Magnum XL-low ratio
Magnum XL-high ratio
MT-82

I'm thinking the XL-low ratio may be the ticket for road courses since I can get more out of 2nd gear and stay out of OD. It's real close to the 3rd, 4th, 5th combination in the MT-82. (6th gear would be all but useless in the XL-high since 70mph comes at 1575 rpm.)

Anybody ever put this combination together?
Would the fact that I can hit 60mph in 1st make it a total PITA to drive around town?
Any other trannys that I should be looking at?

Thanks for your experience!!
 

SoundGuyDave

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Any other trannys that I should be looking at?

Thanks for your experience!!

Well, um, no judgement, but I HOPE we're talking transmissions, here! ;-)

Rockland Standard Gear Tranzilla is one you may want to look at, and plug the numbers in...

Basically a TR6060 with custom gearsets, carbon blockers, etc., etc, they ain't cheap, but:

2.29/1.60/1.21/1.00/0.82/0.67 is a HELL of a road-race gear-set. Assuming a 3.73 rear gear and 25.5" tires, with a "usable" rev range of 3500-6500, that gives the following:

1: 2.29: 31-58mph, drops to 4541 in 2nd.
2: 1.60: 45-83mph, drops to 4916 in 3rd.
3: 1.21: 59-110mph, drops to 5372 in 4th.
4: 1.00: 71-133mph, drops to 5460 in 5th.
5: 0.84: 85-158mph, drops to 5185 in 6th.
6: 0.67: 106-198mph, if you have the horses to get there.

The only issue is that first will be a dog to get started from a dead stop. Once you're moving, though, you can keep the engine in a 2000rpm window the entire way around the track, which is much, much better than the 3650/6060/MT-82 that came from the factory...

Full disclosure: My 3650 is on it's last legs, and I'm shopping as well, and this did get me excited. Particularly since Jerico-type dog-boxes are illegal for AI.

This would probably be a hot mess on the street, but on track? The numbers look really good. Essentially, the Tranzilla's first gear is close to a 3650's SECOND gear, 6th=5th (useless), but you have four perfectly spaced gears in between.
 

redfirepearlgt

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355 is going to be your best bet, at VIR I go right about 151 in back stretch going to about marker 1 1/2 at around 428rwhp with a 275/35 ( 25.5 i believe is the height ) at around 7100ish, race weight is around 3700. This is also in pretty good air to, in the heat of the summer knock about 5-6MPH off that top speed. The motor is a Coyote and MT82 but its the same 1:1.

I have tried a 3.31 before and ended up back with the 3.55s, VIR, Summit, RA, and Dominion this is a perfect gear. Here is a video so you can see how this gear works with data attached, start around the 4:19 mark for the clean lap. Also to my knowledge you are not going to find many tracks on the east coast other then Daytona that has a longer strait then VIR.

https://vimeo.com/146696753

That video just made me late for work. Nothing like seeing a Mustang clean up the eurotrash! LOL! NICE FRICKIN DRIVING!!! I'd pay good money to carry the shot gun in a ride along.
 

Boone

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Well, um, no judgement, but I HOPE we're talking transmissions, here! ;-)

Yes, Dave... Transmissions. (Go to the bottom of this post if you care to read my commentary on this subject)

The Rockland does have the holy grail of gear ratios. My motor is happy from 4K - 7K, so I could stay with a 4.10 rear gear and get the same numbers your looking at with the 3.73 gears. 2nd is very usable, 3rd pulls just long enough, 4th-no change, and with 5th being a 0.84 it may be usable. The 0.68 5th gear ratio in the TR-3650 brings my car to a near stall. Is anyone using this tranny? And using 5th gear on track in particular?

When I shift to 5th, my car starts to shutter a little. It's not a comfortable sensation. Am I seeing the beginning of the end for my TR-3650? How does one know their tranny is "on it's last legs" as Dave puts it?




WARNING: BRUTALLY NEUTRAL POLITICAL COMMENTARY BELOW!!!

I am from NC, and I assume the rest of the country has heard of the HB2 (House Bill 2) fiasco. For those of you in a box, the liberal local government in Charlotte passed an ordinance stating people could use the public restroom of the gender they identify with. The conservative state government didn't like this, so they passed a bill stating people had to use the restroom associated with the gender on their birth certificate. The liberals cried "LGBT discrimination", and the conservatives cried "pervert protection". Personally, I'd like to take a dump on both groups front porch. Politics over.
 

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