Any roofing gurus out there? I have a few questions.

BruceH · Jan 16, 2016

First off I've done a small amount of roofing but it was 35 years ago and I'm not sure I remember everything involved.

I'm asking because my house is almost 22 years old and a series of windstorms have compromised the asphalt shingle roof. The yahoos who put the original roof on didn't pull the plastic strip that lets the tar glue them down on about 50% of the shingles. They also used some sort of staple gun that blew right through the shingles. It was a super crappy job. I don't even think they used a chalk line.

The house needs a new roof within the next year. As of right now I'm planning on doing it myself. Either asphalt shingles or a steel roof.

I think I have the asphalt part down. It would involve new shingles over the old ones, not even sure if new tar paper would be needed. As I recall we started the first layer of shingles upside down so the tabs were pointing up and from there it was pretty simple. Follow the chalk line and offset by a tab for each line. Does that sound right?

As I'm researching metal roofs it appears to cost about the same as asphalt shingles material wise. Some of the metal systems have special gable and end parts that interlock while some don't. Not sure about what to go with when it comes to metal. I don't want an old fashioned corrugated tin roof, looking at the modern colored ones.

So a few questions. Do I remember the asphalt shingle process correctly? Has anyone done a metal roof and if so what did you use and how is it working?

As of right now I plan to do the labor. I'm 50 and feel I can still knock a roof out fairly easy. I still have to ask what does installation usually cost? How is the price broken down, is it per square? My house doesn't have any unusual components and the slope isn't too bad. It's a rambler that measures 56 x 36 on the outside, one floor. Not sure of the slope other than it's more than a modular and not as severe as the two story houses around here.

Anyone out there with ballpark estimates of roofing costs? Materials (I only checked with Lowes and HD) should be about $30-$35 a bundle.

weather man · Jan 16, 2016

I would suggest getting up in the attic and carefully inspecting the subroof since you will not be able to see with leaving original shingles on. If your shingles are curling, I would not lay another layer on top. I would also do new flashing and not reuse the old.

I'm sure you thought of this stuff already Bruce, just throwing out as a reminder.

BruceH · Jan 16, 2016

One of the things that is attractive about the metal roof is that it goes onto 2x4s. If I understand the process correctly anyway. As I understand it new underlayment goes down, then 2x4 spaced 24" apart, then the roof panels secure to the 2x4s. Provided that the rafters are good (they are, I'm in part of the attic frequently as we use the part over the garage for storage) I should be good to go over the existing shingles.

Where the existing roof is failing is when we get horizontal rain. It's blowing some of the shingle bottoms up and driving the rain in. This is causing rain to find leak paths and on one occasion it caused an inside leak from the top of a window casement.

The window casement leak (one storm with non typical pattern winds) made me take a good look at the roof condition and determine I'm going to do something. In the interim I glued the shingle bottoms down with caulk but I see this as a very temporary repair. So far so good, no more leaks so I'm fairly confident the leak came from the shingles blowing up during a driving rain storm.

Once I know something needs to be done I can't really rest or feel "right" until it's taken care of. I have resigned myself to waiting until mid summer to tackle this project though. Mid summer is about the start of a Pacific Northwest dry season. I'm pretty sure my temporary repair will last until then. It also gives me time to research and get opinions. I keep flip flopping from asphalt shingle to metal. Shingles are easy, I'm not sure about the metal. Maybe a pair of tin snips and cordless driver is all that's needed? It sure does look easy.

JerryC · Jan 16, 2016

I'm not a roof guru but shingling over a poorly installed roof just doesn't seem like a good idea. When the homeowners insurance company had mine replaced they paid for a tear off of the original shingles. House was 20 yrs old at the time.

Homeowners insurance wont cover it? You have wind damage and they should cover it.

There's a roofing company here that advertises that they can do a ballpark estimate by using satellite imaging. Probably some in your are that can do it too.

Now they have "starter shingles". My roofer showed them to me, you have to use them to get the warranty. He said in the old days you make a starter by trimming it down so the wind couldn't lift it easy.

BruceH · Jan 17, 2016

JerryC said:
I'm not a roof guru but shingling over a poorly installed roof just doesn't seem like a good idea. When the homeowners insurance company had mine replaced they paid for a tear off of the original shingles. House was 20 yrs old at the time.

Homeowners insurance wont cover it? You have wind damage and they should cover it.

There's a roofing company here that advertises that they can do a ballpark estimate by using satellite imaging. Probably some in your are that can do it too.

Now they have "starter shingles". My roofer showed them to me, you have to use them to get the warranty. He said in the old days you make a starter by trimming it down so the wind couldn't lift it easy.

File a claim because the morons who installed the roof 22 years ago didn't do it right and the wind can lift the tabs when it blows real hard? The shingles are still there, they just weren't done right in some spots. I wish I had moron roofers insurance, lol.

I suppose I could for any subsequent water damage but to date there hasn't really been any damage, just a little clean up. I doubt it would amount to enough to cover the deductible. The top of the window casement can use a retape and texture but that's about it.

So I found this. It's a guide for Lowes to custom order the roofing. If I understand it correctly I can order the panels and trim precut to fit my roof, all I need to do is measure it and properly place the dormer looking "architectural" thing that goes over my garage.

http://fabral-lowes.com/general/LowesProductGuide.pdf

Reread the directions from Fabral. They have a guide just for going over asphalt shingles and it's fairly simple.

The underlaying structure has to be good and no shingles should have an excess curl or distortion. #30 or better underlayment is required. A rubberized underlayment is required around the border and in all valleys.

Lay 2x4 "Purlins" down perpendicular to the rafters spaced 24" on center. Secure panels and trim to the purlins. They have a special tape that's used to seal between panels and between panels and trim. Everything screws in.

It would appear that the only challenging aspect would be the vent and chimney cutouts.

Someone has to have experience with this stuff. I see it from time to time on residential structures. Right now I'm wondering if it's just too good to be true or if it really is as easy as it looks?

JerryC · Jan 17, 2016

BruceH said:
File a claim because the morons who installed the roof 22 years ago didn't do it right and the wind can lift the tabs when it blows real hard? The shingles are still there, they just weren't done right in some spots. I wish I had moron roofers insurance, lol.

You just might have it... You could let the insurance adjuster decide whether they cover it or not. I didn't think mine would get covered but it took them less than ten minutes to decide they would. Saved me 10G.

I'm sure lots of substandard work gets covered by insurance, electrical fires come to mind. Pipe leaks, even ones that froze and burst when the homeowner should have done something to prevent it.

BruceH · Jan 23, 2016

I did some calling about permits. I'll need a permit if I do a tear off. A reshingle doesn't need a permit. The house can have two layers of shingles.

The big decision at this point is still if I should go with shingles or metal. I've ball parked new architectural shingles with underlayment, drip edges, and nails at just about $2000 to $2500 for 22 squares worth. The metal roof is about $1000 more and that cost includes the 2x4 lumber I'd mount the metal panels on.

With shingles I can do them in my spare time because there is a roof already down. The metal roof will probably require me taking a week or so off of work. It's the kind of thing I'd want to get buttoned up right away.

I've read a whole lot of opinions on the internet but some of them just don't make sense. Every once in awhile someone will come into a thread who has done the opposite of what the "cool kids" suggest. Whenever this happens the oddball has always had a good experience and none of what the cool kids said would happen did.

I'm still about 6 months away from doing this so I have time to research it more. The metal roof is really looking like the way to go. All of the parts are designed to fit with each other. Most of it screws into the 2x4 purlins that are laid down first. Flashing is sealed onto the roof. The whole roof is more like a complete watertight system vs shingles that shed water downward.

skwerl · Jan 23, 2016

Recently I discovered a really nice underlayment called 'water and ice'. It's a peel and stick sheet and I have found it as cheap as $38-40 per roll (2 yds per roll). When you figure how much you'll actually use it's not any more expensive than cheap tar paper (no overlap) and it turns your entire roof into one solid waterproof membrane. Also if you nail through it and then pull the nail, it will seal up the nail hole.

BruceH · Jan 23, 2016

skwerl said:
Recently I discovered a really nice underlayment called 'water and ice'. It's a peel and stick sheet and I have found it as cheap as $38-40 per roll (2 yds per roll). When you figure how much you'll actually use it's not any more expensive than cheap tar paper (no overlap) and it turns your entire roof into one solid waterproof membrane. Also if you nail through it and then pull the nail, it will seal up the nail hole.

I've seen versions of it. Some localities require it along the perimeter of the roof for 2 feet past the walls and in the valleys. I plan to use it in those areas, not sure about the whole roof yet. The stuff I'm looking at is expensive. Some brands are less expensive. One that I'm considering is made by GAF and it's about $110 for a roll that covers 200 square feet or 2 squares. My roof is about 22 squares so I'd be looking at about $1200 to cover the whole roof with it.

There are different brands with different prices. It's just another reason I like the idea of the metal roof, it will shed all the water with no chance of wind driven moisture getting to the sheathing. It still needs an underlayment though.

I'd really like to know how well architectural shingles will lay over the 3 tab that are on my roof right now. A thick underlayment should help to smooth out any ripples and the shake like texture should further help to break up uneven lines. Two of my neighbors have had a roofing company go over their 3 tabs with architectural shingles and it looks good from the street. They didn't use an underlayment either. The opinions I come across for underlayment on a reshingle vary. I will use one if I go with shingles.

If I go over 3 tab with 3 tab everything should nest together. However, my roof has some uneven lines where the shingles weren't laid straight so it won't line up unless I follow the skewed lines so the reasoning for 3 tab no longer makes sense.

I might pick up a bundle of shingles and roll of underlayment just to do a little testing on how well it will lay on my roof.

skwerl · Jan 23, 2016

Yeah, I meant 2 squares per roll. I guess it helps having friends in the right places.

BruceH · Jan 23, 2016

skwerl said:
Yeah, I meant 2 squares per roll. I guess it helps having friends in the right places.

I haven't gone to a building supply place yet for prices. I saved a whole lot when I resided the house by going that route. Thanks for the reminder.

GIG4FUN · Jan 23, 2016

Bruce,
I have a few rental houses. I had two done 3 years ago in steel and I had one hell of a time with the gutters on them because the installer had re-installed them too low. I had to spend a bunch getting the gutters re-done to suite the different way water speeds off of a metal roof. Be sure to consult and consider the rain control after. I had to consider ice as well, adding to the expense I hadn't planned on.

BruceH · Jan 23, 2016

GIG4FUN said:
Bruce,
I have a few rental houses. I had two done 3 years ago in steel and I had one hell of a time with the gutters on them because the installer had re-installed them too low. I had to spend a bunch getting the gutters re-done to suite the different way water speeds off of a metal roof. Be sure to consult and consider the rain control after. I had to consider ice as well, adding to the expense I hadn't planned on.

Good info. I went into the other side of the attic today (half of the house has vaulted ceilings which obscure seeing the whole underside of the roof from the garage area). There are wet osb panels in several places. It's been raining for a few days. I also walked the roof and found a few springy spots.

What I don't know is how well osb recovers from being wet. I'm guessing that the panels will need to be replaced. AFAIK this must of started after the last wind storm when we noticed the drips.

I might be calling the insurance company. What I'm not sure of is if it's considered a result of normal wear and tear over the course of the time or if it will be considered a result of wind. Even then I'm not sure wind driven rain is covered.

I just reread the policy and it gets somewhat confusing. The exclusions might cover wind driven rain in a vague way but I don't see it specifically excluded.

I do know that if I call them it counts as a claim even if they don't cover it. FWIW I was state licensed to sell insurance about 20 years ago and can remember that much. Every call about "is it covered" is considered a claim.

I think I'm going to have to call this one in. I do know that if I'm making a claim it's my responsibility to call it in as soon as I know or realize there is a potential claim.

In a way I'm glad I started to investigate the roof but on the other hand ignorance is bliss. I've got all kinds of new worries now.

5.0 Probie · Jan 23, 2016

Bruce...

Do yourself a favor. Call your "Agent" and have a hypothetical conversation. It is not wise to call the "Office" and speak to a flunky. They are required to record all potential claims (Normally type it up after the call into your records). An agent is not required to do this.

If you call the insurance company directly, all bets are off. Not only is the call recorded, they cannot provide you any information to be of much help. Unless you open a claim.

Please note...

There are licensed staff, licensed producers, licensed agents and insurance professional/agency owners. You have to make sure you are not placing yourself in a bad position.

I can tell you "Most" insurance companies in WA State can care less if $0.00 was paid out or $1,000,000 was paid out. A claim is a claim. And home claims last for three to five years. They all affect your rates. Some companies provide what is called a "No claim discount" and if you call in, and they register it as a "Potential claim". Guess what. Potential discount lost at your next renewal...

Also... And most importantly... Homeowners insurance does NOT cover workmanship issues like you have described. Would they cover the damage the water caused? Yes. The roof? No.

I hope that helps...

BruceH · Jan 24, 2016

Went back up on the roof this morning. Walked every part that I noticed the wet osb from underneath. Something clicked this time. The bad shingle job is more than just a sloppy installation. What I noticed is that they made the exposure as much as they could. 3 tab shingles should have 5" of exposed shingle. Most of these were laid to have about 6". They took it right up to the maximum that would still cover the roof.

Over time the shingles have weathered, moved, etc. This has exposed drip paths. The drip paths mostly exist at areas where shingles butt together and the overlapping shingle doesn't quite cover the exposed tar paper. Once I knew what to look for I was able to do temporary repairs. I think I got all of them.

The repair I'm using is nothing more than cutting up a full size shingle into smaller sections that can be slid under the butted junctions where the top shingle doesn't cover the exposed tar paper. We will see how well it works over the next few days.

I also did some research on osb and found out that it's supposed to recover from being wet for a number of times. As I walked the roof it was fairly easy to find the wet, springy spots but at no time did I back off because I thought it wouldn't support my 6'1", 230 lb frame. I'll do more investigation as I wait for spring.

At this time I'm pretty sure I'll go over it with new shingles. While I'm waiting for warmer weather I can install drip edges and things like that so that when it's time to shingle I can just go.

The roof is about 22 squares. I'm wondering what my rate of work will be? If I could do 1 square an hour it would take a weekend or two and maybe some time after work for a little while, maybe a few weeks worth, maybe less. The biggest issue will be getting the underlayment down. Especially with the sticky ice and water stuff. Putting the shingles on is really nothing more than assembly work. It's fairly straight forward until I start flashing.

Lining up help with the underlayment will probably be the biggest challenge unless I do it all at once. I'd rather just put a few layers down at a time, cover with shingles, repeat.

s8v4o · Jan 26, 2016

Bruce I've been in the roofing business. Feel free to ask some questions. That plastic strip on the shingle isn't meant to be taken off. It is meant to keep the shingles from sticking together while they are bundled together for shipping and storage. When the shingles are actually laid out the tar strip doesn't line up with the plastic anymore and the shingles will then stick to each other.

http://www.gaf.com/warranties_technical_documents/steep_slope_technical_advisory_bulletins/english_bulletins/clear_plastic_release_film_leave_on_or_take_off_steep_slope_technical_point_tab_r_2011_106.pdf

"What Is That Shiny Plastic Film Strip On Shingles?"

"Sealant protection… GAF adds a thin plastic film to keep the sealant from activating while in storage and shipping. This film is protecting the shingles from sealing together while in storage, but does not align with the sealant adhesive when the shingles are installed."

NEVER put new shingles over old ones. I've seen this done many times when I started a many tear offs. The old shingles start to break down and when you try to remove them they break off into MANY time little pieces and makes for a pain in the ass removal. At least a single layer shingle somewhat stays together and makes for a much easier removal. Problem number two is weight. People don't realize how much shingles weight. Shingles can weigh 200-400 lbs per square depending on the quality of the shingles. Multiply that times 30-60 squares and you've got up to 24,000lbs. Now put another layer on there. I don't like having that extra weight up there.

OSB is ok but it is the cheaper route. Make sure you install the up side up. Most don't realize the two sides are different. The up side has black lines on it in a big checkerboard pattern.

Twenty two squares would take my crew of 4-6 about a half a day. Keep in mind they do this everyday and have every possible tool to make their job easier. Doing it by yourself is doable but will take some time. I would give yourself 4-5 days. You could also go to lowes and buy a huge 60'-40' tarp so you can do whole panels at a time without worry of rain.

Personally I would go with a metal roof if you can afford it. Asphalt shingles never last as long as they're supposed to. That is especially true here in Louisiana. A 30 year shingle might last 20 years. Probably not very important to you but a metal roof will also help with cooling in the summer.

As for insurance, coming from the contractor side of things insurance is a racket. I've seen MANY people be denied claims that genuinely needed a roof. Here in Louisiana we have problems with hurricanes. Now insurance companies have stipulations in their policy about "wind and hail". Here it used to be if the storm had a name we would fall under that special category and now it's just wind or hail. If you have damage due to wind or hail your deductible can be 1-5% of the value of the home. How shady is that? Now I'm just rambling and will leave you with the above information. Good luck with whatever you decide.

BruceH · Jan 26, 2016

s8v4o said:
Bruce I've been in the roofing business. Feel free to ask some questions. That plastic strip on the shingle isn't meant to be taken off. It is meant to keep the shingles from sticking together while they are bundled together for shipping and storage. When the shingles are actually laid out the tar strip doesn't line up with the plastic anymore and the shingles will then stick to each other.

http://www.gaf.com/warranties_techn...teep_slope_technical_point_tab_r_2011_106.pdf

"What Is That Shiny Plastic Film Strip On Shingles?"

"Sealant protection… GAF adds a thin plastic film to keep the sealant from activating while in storage and shipping. This film is protecting the shingles from sealing together while in storage, but does not align with the sealant adhesive when the shingles are installed."

NEVER put new shingles over old ones. I've seen this done many times when I started a many tear offs. The old shingles start to break down and when you try to remove them they break off into MANY time little pieces and makes for a pain in the ass removal. At least a single layer shingle somewhat stays together and makes for a much easier removal. Problem number two is weight. People don't realize how much shingles weight. Shingles can weigh 200-400 lbs per square depending on the quality of the shingles. Multiply that times 30-60 squares and you've got up to 24,000lbs. Now put another layer on there. I don't like having that extra weight up there.

OSB is ok but it is the cheaper route. Make sure you install the up side up. Most don't realize the two sides are different. The up side has black lines on it in a big checkerboard pattern.

Twenty two squares would take my crew of 4-6 about a half a day. Keep in mind they do this everyday and have every possible tool to make their job easier. Doing it by yourself is doable but will take some time. I would give yourself 4-5 days. You could also go to lowes and buy a huge 60'-40' tarp so you can do whole panels at a time without worry of rain.

Personally I would go with a metal roof if you can afford it. Asphalt shingles never last as long as they're supposed to. That is especially true here in Louisiana. A 30 year shingle might last 20 years. Probably not very important to you but a metal roof will also help with cooling in the summer.

As for insurance, coming from the contractor side of things insurance is a racket. I've seen MANY people be denied claims that genuinely needed a roof. Here in Louisiana we have problems with hurricanes. Now insurance companies have stipulations in their policy about "wind and hail". Here it used to be if the storm had a name we would fall under that special category and now it's just wind or hail. If you have damage due to wind or hail your deductible can be 1-5% of the value of the home. How shady is that? Now I'm just rambling and will leave you with the above information. Good luck with whatever you decide.

Thank you very much for the info. I'm not a fan of osb but it's what's on there now and I have to work with it. If I have to replace some I'd probably go with plywood but it would only be a few areas.

I keep going back and forth between metal and shingles. Metal isn't that much more for my cost, about $2000 more if I've figured it correctly. I'm not getting much of a break on the metal. Shingles I get a 15%-25% discount when I buy over 13 squares but it's still all consumer pricing.

One benefit to metal is that I'm installing 2x4s every 24" going up the roof to install the metal to. The shingles can stay on and not hurt a thing. Metal weight is about .8 to 1.5 lbs per sf according to Fabral. That's less than half the weight of the shingles I'm considering.

As long as I have your ear I'd like to ask a question. What is determined to be bad sheathing? There has to be some sort of criteria. I'm thinking if I stepped through it would definitely be bad, but what else? If it doesn't hold a nail? Is a small area of delamination (like an inch or so) going to cause problems down the road?

I'm researching shingles and will probably go with GAF or OC. Internet research is somewhat scary because someone has had issues with every kind of shingle out there. GAF Timberline or OC TruDefinition Duration and the two contenders. I'm leaning toward OC Duration because of the nailing strip. There is plenty of bad written about both but also some good.

Thanks for the help,
Bruce

s8v4o · Jan 28, 2016

Bruce, my approach for determining if the sheathing is bad in not scientific by any means. I will generally walk the whole roof. The problem areas will usually sound very "crunchy". When I hear that I'll inspect further to see if it warrants needing replaced. There's a big difference between wood that is creaky versus crunchy.

If a roof is too steep or too high you can usually see the condition by going into the attic and doing a visual inspection. Take a hammer with you and any areas that have water stains simply push the sheathing with the handle side of the hammer and see how the wood feels. You'll hear that crunch if it's bad plus you can see it.

A small area of delamination isn't going to hurt anything as long as that area doesn't get any more leaks and the rest of the sheet seems solid. If you find one that you're unsure of just replace it. OSB isn't that expansive and since you'll possibly be tearing the whole roof off it's easier to replace that sheet as opposed to trying to repair something after the fact.

The internet is full of good and bad reviews for every single product out there. Some one star reviews can be thrown out. Some people just like to complain. Some people leave reviews on products they absolutely know nothing about. For example if I'm on Amazon and I'm doing research on a product and it ha 1500 reviews and it seems like a 5 star product there is bound to be some one star reviews in there. I'll read them and sometimes you can see they're error and sometimes people do get a defective product but the average is still very good. You can't really go wrong with any of the name brand shingles. They all have little niche features. Just go with a company you are familiar with that suits your pocket book best.

I may have missed it but do you have storm damage?

BruceH · Jan 28, 2016

s8v4o said:
I may have missed it but do you have storm damage?

A few months ago we had a storm with wind that blew the shingles up and allowed wind driven rain in. This caused a one time leak on top of a window casement. It's what started the whole process of taking a real close look at everything.

The bottom line for me is that the roof is 22 years old, the shingles are in real good shape, but the original installation was subpar. It left small areas of exposed underlayment in areas where shingles butted together and the butt was also in a tab cutout area. Can you picture what I'm trying to describe? I think it's because they were going for the most exposure they could. Instead of 5" some have up to 6". The whole roof isn't like that but about 1/4 is. Last Sunday I did a temp repair on the exposed areas by inserting squares of shingle over the butted sections and under the tab cutouts that were exposing the underlayment. So far the one leak on our porch hasn't come back.

Whatever the reason I really think the original install is the root of the problem. The odd windstorm with wind coming from a non typical direction highlighted the poor workmanship imo. The extra 10" of rain over normal that we've had the last few months hasn't helped.

s8v4o · Jan 29, 2016

Bruce, it sounds like they started to run out of shingles then tried to increase coverage as not to buy anymore. Definitely shitty work. Bruce, before you make any more repairs I would call your agent, they may foot the bill for a new roof. There's a reason you pay for that insurance. If they don't cover it no harm no foul. It's not like you are purposefully damaging your roof in hopes in an insurance claim as that is wrong and it's insurance fraud. Your situation is text book stuff here. It doesn't cost anything to have them send out an adjuster to assess your roof.

Any roofing gurus out there? I have a few questions.

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