Head weight

Heaten m90

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So with springs, valves, cams Etc what is the weight differance between the 3v, 4v and cyote heads??? Im not finding much on this.
 

Wes06

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no idea, whats are you trying to gain by weighing coyote vs 3/4v heads?
 

Heaten m90

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Im looking for facts to support a Theory. I think the 3 valve head design is over all superior in performance.(in all out race applications). The extra rotational mass of the 2 extra cams, parasitic load from valve springs and sheer weight Etc. Especially at high RPM. This of course references a built 3 valve head.
 

stkjock

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4V head flows more air = superior performance
 

Heaten m90

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No i understand you can make more power with a better flowing head. But from my gorilla math. This would only occur at a break horse power level that is well over whats effectivly possible to transfer to the ground with an RPM that would be consistent to that of a rotory engine. All while hanging that extra 70 pounds off the front end.

Im probably wrong here but i think you'd need a big tire drag car before you really utilize the potential of a fully built 4v head.
 

702GT

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No i understand you can make more power with a better flowing head. But from my gorilla math. This would only occur at a break horse power level that is well over whats effectivly possible to transfer to the ground with an RPM that would be consistent to that of a rotory engine. All while hanging that extra 70 pounds off the front end.

Im probably wrong here but i think you'd need a big tire drag car before you really utilize the potential of a fully built 4v head.

It's already been done. If a 3v head is 15-20lbs lighter than a 4v head, the 4v still wins. 50 lbs in weight savings will not translate into the same gains as an increase is power. A FRPP CNC 3v head (new casting) is probably the only thing comparable to a 4v in performance. Even then, are we talking an older "B" or "C" 4v head, or a GT500 4v head (Ford GT design) or a coyote 4v head. That 3v head worked to the hilt max effort would compete with a "B" or "C" but never hold a candle to the GT500 4v. The Coyote 4v was purpose built to be high reving and flow, as well as being one of the smallest (probably lightest) 4v heads ever to come from Ford.

And that's comparing to an aftermarket 3v, once you get into a worked 4v head, it's not even a comparison. The only question you need to ask when working with a max effort 4v head, is how to get more cubic inches under it to receive the flow.

A 3v balances the competition in a lot of ways, but max effort isn't one of them. Nor fastest E/T. I agree there's more parasitic loss in a 4v, but it's like trying to argue whether it's worth running a PD blower or turbo, due to parasitic loss. It's really going to be a matter of flavor you like, they're both going to make nasty numbers. The big difference is a 4v can support nastier numbers than any 3v.
 

drive_55_not

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No i understand you can make more power with a better flowing head. But from my gorilla math. This would only occur at a break horse power level that is well over whats effectivly possible to transfer to the ground with an RPM that would be consistent to that of a rotory engine. All while hanging that extra 70 pounds off the front end.

Im probably wrong here but i think you'd need a big tire drag car before you really utilize the potential of a fully built 4v head.


The 3v heads do well for what they are, but from idle to redline they suck compared to any of the 4v heads.

And to add further insult to the 3v, the 'Yote basically weighs the same so no weight advantage to the 3v either.

.
 

JeremyH

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IMO this aspect of rotating mass and static weight in the head is insignificant, it would not create a difference that would edge out a higher flowing design as long as you have a good port velocity design. The last version of the 4.6 4v heads in early 2000's were def way more than what the 4.6 needed at the time though, I would agree on that, they are more at home on a 5.0-5.4L, but that doesn't mean they wont do very well on a 4.6.

Imo the 3v came about due to Ford needing a sohc head to implement their vct technology and the 2v sohc head being too inferior to do it with. Its too bad they didn't have tivct down back then if the 2005 GT debuted with a 03-04 4v head with ti-vtc that would have been pretty sick, would have been a bump from 260hp to 325-350hp in the GT from 04 to 05 I would guess depending on what they did with compression since final compression is essentially tunable to some degree with tivct. That would have been far superior to any 3v sohc vct config, just look at how damn good the 5.0 4v tivct heads are. If you look at it that way the 3v vct head was a stepping stone to get to 4v tivct which is a clear winner. It was never ment to replace or outperform a standard 4v modular head though especially when you start working them over. Its just cool that your standard GT is 4v now. It used to be reserved for the specialty cars and cobra platforms only.
 
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Heaten m90

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Well, thanks for the information guys.... does this hold true for high boost applications? Like is there a point where adding boost wont overcome this?
 

JeremyH

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Yes, more so applies for boost, the more efficient the heads are at moving air n/a the better they will be when forcing air through under pressure. Especially since with a 4v head you get 2 valves and a larger exhaust port vice a single valve exhaust port that the 3v has. More pronounced with a blower vice turbo, since evacuating air through the exhaust side of the head becomes very important when upping the boost and making more power, hence why free flowing headers with larger primaries and other exhaust mods show big power gains on higher boost level blower cars. You need to be able to get all that air out just as easy as your getting it in... that's what she said lol
 

drive_55_not

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Well, thanks for the information guys.... does this hold true for high boost applications? Like is there a point where adding boost wont overcome this?


No, as Jeremy pointed out the gap gets worse with boost.

The good news is, the 3v heads do work well with boost and with a big power adder will support 1000+rwhp ..

And better news the 3v exhaust sounds sooooo much better than a 'Yote, we've got a couple "yotes running around here that sound absolutely horrible with muffler delete exhausts, I saw one of them Saturday and cringe when I hear him ... I'm kinda embarrassed for him actually.


.
 

Sky Render

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The Coyote does not sound good with completely straight pipes. A proper can style muffler makes them sound quite nice, however.
 

swflastang05

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And better news the 3v exhaust sounds sooooo much better than a 'Yote, we've got a couple "yotes running around here that sound absolutely horrible with muffler delete exhausts, I saw one of them Saturday and cringe when I hear him ... I'm kinda embarrassed for him actually.


.

x2, there's a few yotes around here that sound pretty embarrassing for all mustang owners IMO
 

Heaten m90

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Has anyone ever cracked into the 1300-1500HP range with a 3 valve??? Does anyone here run a stand alone ECM? Im considering, as i dont like the hard RPM limit.
 

Heaten m90

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Sorry im not joking please enlighten me. I was talking engine horsepower just fyi
 

702GT

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If you're going for max effort I would stick with a GT500 based application. Do the full longblock with whatever preferred tranny. Either the 07-10 GT500 LB or the '13+. (though the '13+ will cost a few kidney's, the 07-10 may be the better budget build).

IMO the 5.4 is going to give you extra cubes to play with and still be able to rev high. There isn't all the VCT going on, so less to worry about failing. GT500 heads flow ungodly air. A turbo setup will be able to easily make the power you're after. The intake manifold may rape the bank, but there's nothing cheap about making that kind of power. If you have the coin, spring for the '11-12 aluminum block if you like trimming weight. Dollar:pound ratio may not be worth it, but whatever you prefer.

If you're looking to take the 3v where no man has gone before, I think you're barking up an expensive and painful tree. If you don't care about your money that much, there are great charities out there. You can make 1300-1500hp with a 3v, I just don't understand why anyone would want to fight that war when there's better tools at your disposal. It's like cutting down a tree with a swiss-army knife (3v) when you could go in with a chainsaw (4v) and take what you need. It reminds me of the 2v days when people would chase terminator power with a 2v just to do it. Congrats, you just spent enough money to buy 2 Cobra's to make your GT as fast as a Cobra. And then there's the matter of keeping it together long enough to do something with it, lol.
 

Heaten m90

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Im taking the 3v into uncharted territory. I understand your logic but i cant turn back now. I've aready spent way to much to turn back now. Even if i wanted to switch 2 4v heads i need to sell
-billet tensioners/guids
-manley springs/titanium retainers
-valves
-turbo cams bla bla bla
 

702GT

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Im taking the 3v into uncharted territory. I understand your logic but i cant turn back now. I've aready spent way to much to turn back now. Even if i wanted to switch 2 4v heads i need to sell
-billet tensioners/guids
-manley springs/titanium retainers
-valves
-turbo cams bla bla bla

Well don't forget adjustable 3v cam gears lol. Still not sure the 3v heads will support the kind of boost you're talking about, but you're gonna find out lol.
 

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