Anyone long range shoot?

white05gt

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I don't build rifles but shoot 600 yards almost every weekend when it's nice. Last weekend I got to shoot out to 1280 yards, that's the farthest so far but looking to try a mile once my rifle gets back from the gunsmith.
 

Marble

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I just had a rifle built.

Mod 70 7 STW
Hart Barrel, Sendero contour, fluted
1-9 twist
Timney trigger
Nightforce. NXS

Initial testing shows .3 groups with 180 Berger VLD.

longest kill is 650
 

Pentalab

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Would a 7m-08 be good for this application? (308... necked down to 7mm). Berger makes 180 G VLD bullets, with a superb BC... but I think they are a bit heavy for a 7m-08. Hornady 162 grain A max might do the trick. ( BC=.625) That and a 24-30" barrel.

I see Hornady just released it's new ELD bullets....look like a A max... but with a better heat resistant polymer tip. Same 162 G ELD has a slightly higher BC @ .627.

I have never tried the long distance shooting, but always wanted to. Right now, I'm just doing a lot of reading.
 

white05gt

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Would a 7m-08 be good for this application? (308... necked down to 7mm). Berger makes 180 G VLD bullets, with a superb BC... but I think they are a bit heavy for a 7m-08. Hornady 162 grain A max might do the trick. ( BC=.625) That and a 24-30" barrel.

I see Hornady just released it's new ELD bullets....look like a A max... but with a better heat resistant polymer tip. Same 162 G ELD has a slightly higher BC @ .627.

I have never tried the long distance shooting, but always wanted to. Right now, I'm just doing a lot of reading.


That's a good round. I run a .260 and .308 for most of my shooting. It's an addictive hobby because once you shoot a certain distance, you want more. I shot 1280 and was consistently hitting it so now I want to try a mile.
 

Pentalab

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The 7m-08 is supposed to be supersonic out to 1500 meters. (with a Hornady 162 Grain A-max). I used Hornady's ( and other's) on line calculator..and that appears to be correct. For the same bullet weight, a 7M-08 has a higher BC vs a .308
But you can get 208 Grain .308 bullets with an even higher BC. Problem is, that's one helluva lot of weight for a .308 It's better suited for a more powerful .30 caliber round.

On a similar note, what scopes are typ used for 1000++ yards ??
 

Pentalab

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Expensive. [emoji14]

I have my eye on an ior valdada scope, but good glass, is good glass. Schmidt and bender, swarovzki, nightforce....List goes on lol.

My Hawke 8-32 x 56 is a fraction of the price of the above. It works ok, but the turrets are in 1/4 MOA adjustments.... but the illuminated recticle
is in mil dots... pita. It's 1/2 mil dots on the reticle...but only when set to 20X mag. (20X = midpoint). Deviate from 20X... and it's a complicated mess to sort out. Still, it's good enough for getting my feet wet.
 
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Marble

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The 7m-08 is supposed to be supersonic out to 1500 meters. (with a Hornady 162 Grain A-max). I used Hornady's ( and other's) on line calculator..and that appears to be correct. For the same bullet weight, a 7M-08 has a higher BC vs a .308
But you can get 208 Grain .308 bullets with an even higher BC. Problem is, that's one helluva lot of weight for a .308 It's better suited for a more powerful .30 caliber round.

On a similar note, what scopes are typ used for 1000++ yards ??

You can use the 708 for distances like you want. You may not be able to use the 180 grain bullets because of your probable barrel twist. A 1-9 twist is what is recommended for a 180 VLD. So check the twist rate in your barrel and if it's close, call Berger and ask.

Also, with a bullet as long and sleek as the 180 VLD, your seating depth might get goofy depending on the throat of your barrel and what powder you use. I would guess H4350 would be the fastest powder you would shoot and then look for powders like H1000 and 7828. If you have to push that bullet deep into the shell the load may compact which is not bad, just something to consider when calculating pressures.
 

white05gt

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The 7m-08 is supposed to be supersonic out to 1500 meters. (with a Hornady 162 Grain A-max). I used Hornady's ( and other's) on line calculator..and that appears to be correct. For the same bullet weight, a 7M-08 has a higher BC vs a .308
But you can get 208 Grain .308 bullets with an even higher BC. Problem is, that's one helluva lot of weight for a .308 It's better suited for a more powerful .30 caliber round.

On a similar note, what scopes are typ used for 1000++ yards ??


I like Nightforce and Vortex Razor scopes. They aren't cheap but they are nice. I was using a Nightforce 3.5-15 NXS and was able to spot most of my misses at 1280 yards. The hits were hard to tell even with my buddies 27x gen 2 razor.

Expensive. [emoji14]

I have my eye on an ior valdada scope, but good glass, is good glass. Schmidt and bender, swarovzki, nightforce....List goes on lol.

I've heard the eye relief on IOR isn't that great but I don't have first hand experience.
 

Marble

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I really like my NXS so far. I've only shot it at short range and then spotted stuff at long range.

The gun will be used this year for a long range hunt in Colorado. My dad will be shooting it. He's 65 and still makes it up the hill, but it's getting tougher for him. So I have a spot I can stock him where he has almost 360 degrees of visibility that he can shoot from. No need to climb up the hill anymore.
 

Pentalab

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You can use the 708 for distances like you want. You may not be able to use the 180 grain bullets because of your probable barrel twist. A 1-9 twist is what is recommended for a 180 VLD. So check the twist rate in your barrel and if it's close, call Berger and ask.

Also, with a bullet as long and sleek as the 180 VLD, your seating depth might get goofy depending on the throat of your barrel and what powder you use. I would guess H4350 would be the fastest powder you would shoot and then look for powders like H1000 and 7828. If you have to push that bullet deep into the shell the load may compact which is not bad, just something to consider when calculating pressures.

Points well taken. I see the BR folks who really take this 7mm stuff seriously, esp in the UK, all use berger 180 G VLD's. But they also use a 270 WSM (necked up to 7mm /.284)..... or a 300 WSM (necked down to 7mm /.284).

The 7mm WSM has way too short a neck to handle anything > 150 G.
The heaviest factory ammo I saw in 7m WSM is 150G..and most of it is less, like 140G, or less.

Those berger 180 g VLD's are long things, and if used on a 7mm WSM...have to be seated well below the shoulder.

I doubt a 7mm hornady 162 G would fit good in a 7mm WSM.

The other issue with the WSM 270 /300 brass (necked up /down) is barrel life. 200-500 rounds is about it, then accuracy drops off. Appears that throat erosion is the culprit.

A 7m-08 might be a good compromise. Easy to re-load, and reasonable barrel life.
 

BruceH

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I've shot 1000 yards in competition. Used to be active in NRA High Power. Had a High Master classification in XC and LR. Also was involved in Palma. For those who don't know Palma is shot at distances of 800, 900, and 1000 yards. 15 rounds for record from each range from the prone position. No support allowed except for a sling, only iron sights are allowed (this is the case with all but a few of the NRA disciplines). The bull is large enough to sight on at 1000 yards. It looks like a pin head but as long as it's in the center of your aperture and the rear aperture is in the center of the front diopter and you have the right dope on the sights and are holding correctly and have the wind figured out it will go in the center of the target.

XC uses a LR range for the final stage which is shot at 600 yards. LR competition is done at any range beyond 600 yards.

I used an AR for XC when I shot service rifle. Tried it at 1000 yards once with 75g jlk bullets. About half of them stayed supersonic as reported by my partner in the pits. Still managed an expert score which isn't bad considering I was shooting with a standard AR sight radius and 20" barrel. I was also only classed as a Master at that time.

Most of my LR (Long Range) was done with a 308. I had two 308 Palma rifles that were also used for Prone competition. Both were built by Jim Cloward. One was built on a Model 70 Classic action, the other on a RPA Quadlock. I specified Pac-Nor barrels for both. Finished barrel length was 32" in a 1-12 twist. My usual load was a 155g Lapua Scenar with Vihtivouri N140 or N150 powder resulting in a muzzle velocity of right around 3000fps. This would stay supersonic at 1000 yards. The design of the 155g Lapua Scenar has about the same bc as a MK 175. It is my thought that Sierra copied the 155 Lapua as it looks identical and it came out after the 155 Lapua became successful.

That particular load will move about 9" with 1 mph of crosswind at 1000 yards.

If you are planning on any kind of NRA sanctioned competition forget about rifle scopes and invest in quality sights. A good spotting scope is needed to see the markers placed in your target by your opposite in the pits. It's also needed to read wind direction and patterens via heat mirage.

If I was to start out right now I'd go for a David Tubb 2k rifle with a few different barrels. One in 308 for Palma and another in 6mm PPC or his 6mm XC. Believe it or not one of the absolute best LR cartridges for target use is the little 6mm PPC with a 105 vld bullet. The rifle is only part of the equation though. Wind reading is important as are the fundamentals of a proper hold, sight alignment, muscle memory, and trigger control.
 
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white05gt

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I about bought a Tubb 2k with 5 or 6 barrels a few years back when I got into long range guns. It was one hell of a setup and the price was pretty good for everything included. I currently have a .223AI, 22-250AI and a 6.5 SAUM switch barrel being built on a Defiance Deviant action that will sit in a KRG whiskey 3 chassis.

Wind is my biggest challenge where I shoot because it's in between a hill and trees with the target in the open. Wind swirls so one minute you are dialing left and a few shots later you are dialing right. I've been working on holding for wind as long as it's not too bad.
 

Mr. Q

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I've shot 1000 yards in competition. Used to be active in NRA High Power. Had a High Master classification in XC and LR. Also was involved in Palma. For those who don't know Palma is shot at distances of 800, 900, and 1000 yards. 15 rounds for record from each range from the prone position. No support allowed except for a sling, only iron sights are allowed (this is the case with all but a few of the NRA disciplines). The bull is large enough to sight on at 1000 yards. It looks like a pin head but as long as it's in the center of your aperture and the rear aperture is in the center of the front diopter and you have the right dope on the sights and are holding correctly and have the wind figured out it will go in the center of the target.

XC uses a LR range for the final stage which is shot at 600 yards. LR competition is done at any range beyond 600 yards.

I used an AR for XC when I shot service rifle. Tried it at 1000 yards once with 75g jlk bullets. About half of them stayed supersonic as reported by my partner in the pits. Still managed an expert score which isn't bad considering I was shooting with a standard AR sight radius and 20" barrel. I was also only classed as a Master at that time.

Most of my LR (Long Range) was done with a 308. I had two 308 Palma rifles that were also used for Prone competition. Both were built by Jim Cloward. One was built on a Model 70 Classic action, the other on a RPA Quadlock. I specified Pac-Nor barrels for both. Finished barrel length was 32" in a 1-12 twist. My usual load was a 155g Lapua Scenar with Vihtivouri N140 or N150 powder resulting in a muzzle velocity of right around 3000fps. This would stay supersonic at 1000 yards. The design of the 155g Lapua Scenar has about the same bc as a MK 175. It is my thought that Sierra copied the 155 Lapua as it looks identical and it came out after the 155 Lapua became successful.

That particular load will move about 9" with 1 mph of crosswind at 1000 yards.

If you are planning on any kind of NRA sanctioned competition forget about rifle scopes and invest in quality sights. A good spotting scope is needed to see the markers placed in your target by your opposite in the pits. It's also needed to read wind direction and patterens via heat mirage.

If I was to start out right now I'd go for a David Tubb 2k rifle with a few different barrels. One in 308 for Palma and another in 6mm PPC or his 6mm XC. Believe it or not one of the absolute best LR cartridges for target use is the little 6mm PPC with a 105 vld bullet. The rifle is only part of the equation though. Wind reading is important as are the fundamentals of a proper hold, sight alignment, muscle memory, and trigger control.

how do you account for wind with irons at 1k?
 

Pentalab

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how do you account for wind with irons at 1k?

#### ...... esp with a 3-12 mph cross wind.


F-Class

F-Class is a rapidly growing shooting sport subset of High Power Rifle shooting. F-class is shot solely prone at distances over 300 to 1200 yards. Competitors may use almost any caliber rifle (up to .35 caliber), a scope, and a front and rear rest or a bipod. F-class shooters use targets HALF the size of (and often shoot concurrently with) the world's long-range Palma shooters. See the High Power Rifle rulebook for more information on F-class competition.
There are two classes in F-class competition: F-Open and F-TR. F-TR is a restricted category where a shooter must shoot unmodified .223 or .308 cartridges with a rifle using a bipod in front with a weight limit of 18.18 pounds. F-Open allows any cartridge, uses a front rest like used in bench rest shooting, and has a higher weight limit of 22 pounds.

.....................................................................................................

3.3.1 U.S. Palma Rifle (a) a rifle with metallic sights chambered for the unmodified .308/7.62 mm NATO or .223/5.56 mm NATO cartridge case.
(b) any service rifle with metallic sights chambered for the unmodified .308/7.62 mm NATO or .223/5.56 mm NATO cartridge case.


.....................................................................................................


## Ok, With my eye sight (having to use reading glasses), I would probably be frustrated with Palma. Even with F class... (which is the real ticket for us old guys)..when talking about 1000 yards.... I can see that the whole deal is gonna be won..... by whomever can read the wind the best.



## If a 1 mph wind can blow a .308 over to either side....by 9" @ 1000 yards. Palma, with it's open sites, even with windage adjustments, is gonna be a real bitch. Hats off to folks who can hit anything at 1000 yards.



## I just saw several still pix of 24" diam targets @ 1000 yards. They look puny. I'd have to talk to some folks who have done it....then go out there as an observer one day. These guys that can hit the taller beer cans @ 1250 yards just amaze me. I tried my hand at astro photography back around 1993-4. That was the ultimate exercise in frustration. I don't want a repeat. BR shooting, at much shorter distances, is something I could probably handle better.
 

white05gt

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This is the target at 1280 yards that me and a buddy shot. It was painted once so that's only about half the shots that hit it. There was a few people that tried it but gave up pretty quick.
 

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BruceH

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how do you account for wind with irons at 1k?

#### ...... esp with a 3-12 mph cross wind.


F-Class

F-Class is a rapidly growing shooting sport subset of High Power Rifle shooting. F-class is shot solely prone at distances over 300 to 1200 yards. Competitors may use almost any caliber rifle (up to .35 caliber), a scope, and a front and rear rest or a bipod. F-class shooters use targets HALF the size of (and often shoot concurrently with) the world's long-range Palma shooters. See the High Power Rifle rulebook for more information on F-class competition.
There are two classes in F-class competition: F-Open and F-TR. F-TR is a restricted category where a shooter must shoot unmodified .223 or .308 cartridges with a rifle using a bipod in front with a weight limit of 18.18 pounds. F-Open allows any cartridge, uses a front rest like used in bench rest shooting, and has a higher weight limit of 22 pounds.

.....................................................................................................

3.3.1 U.S. Palma Rifle (a) a rifle with metallic sights chambered for the unmodified .308/7.62 mm NATO or .223/5.56 mm NATO cartridge case.
(b) any service rifle with metallic sights chambered for the unmodified .308/7.62 mm NATO or .223/5.56 mm NATO cartridge case.


.....................................................................................................


## Ok, With my eye sight (having to use reading glasses), I would probably be frustrated with Palma. Even with F class... (which is the real ticket for us old guys)..when talking about 1000 yards.... I can see that the whole deal is gonna be won..... by whomever can read the wind the best.



## If a 1 mph wind can blow a .308 over to either side....by 9" @ 1000 yards. Palma, with it's open sites, even with windage adjustments, is gonna be a real bitch. Hats off to folks who can hit anything at 1000 yards.



## I just saw several still pix of 24" diam targets @ 1000 yards. They look puny. I'd have to talk to some folks who have done it....then go out there as an observer one day. These guys that can hit the taller beer cans @ 1250 yards just amaze me. I tried my hand at astro photography back around 1993-4. That was the ultimate exercise in frustration. I don't want a repeat. BR shooting, at much shorter distances, is something I could probably handle better.

Wind direction and velocity is an educated guess. The guess is based on reading mirage in the spotting scope (heat mirage can be a great indicator of direction, speed, and the prevailing wind patterns. Most ranges also have range flags which will help with speed and direction also. You also get a feel for what a particular wind pattern is doing by utilizing your sighting shots in differing winds.

It's not something you will probably figure out the first time out but it is something that can be learned. A very important component of the whole process is having sights that are dead nuts repeatable for windage adjustments. They need to have zero backlash and give you what you adjust for. I used a sight made by a local named Ron Herms. His sight was called a PNW which stood for Pacific Northwest. It was repeatable and always gave the correction that was dialed into it. Another plus was that he had them available in service rifle directions. Most match rifle sights adjust 180 out from what a service rifle does. Since I spent my first few years of competition using various US service rifles I wanted a sight that adjusted with the same directions for correction.

I was witness to a changing wind once at Rattlesnake shooting range in the Tri-Cities that blew everyone off the target at 1000 yards. It was dubbed a "Rattlesnake clean". Generally when clean is mentioned it means a perfect score but in this case the continually changing wind directions caught every shooter on the line by surprise.

For reference a 1000 yard target is 60" x 60". This is 6 moa total at 1000 yards. The sighting bull is 44". Each moa is a scoring ring. The center 10" is worth a 10, next ring is a 9, etc. You can be up to 3 moa off of center and still score points but if you don't hit the target it's a miss which is worth nothing.

Long range shooting is quite similar to meditation in outcome. The whole time you are engaged in the shooting portion every part of your brain is occupied with monitoring wind, adjusting sights if needed, computing wind adjustments (not all winds are a crosswind, most are angled so you have to modify what you have memorized for crosswind adjustments), and of course there is maintaining a proper hold that will ensure you don't muscle the rifle around when you finally take the shot.

There just isn't time to think about anything else during your time on the firing line. You are allowed 1 minute for each shot. It's a mind clearing experience that causes a general relaxation after the match is over. In my case I equate it to the feeling I've gotten from practiced meditation or really focused yoga.
 

Pentalab

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Wind direction and velocity is an educated guess. The guess is based on reading mirage in the spotting scope (heat mirage can be a great indicator of direction, speed, and the prevailing wind patterns. Most ranges also have range flags which will help with speed and direction also. You also get a feel for what a particular wind pattern is doing by utilizing your sighting shots in differing winds.

It's not something you will probably figure out the first time out but it is something that can be learned. A very important component of the whole process is having sights that are dead nuts repeatable for windage adjustments. They need to have zero backlash and give you what you adjust for. I used a sight made by a local named Ron Herms. His sight was called a PNW which stood for Pacific Northwest. It was repeatable and always gave the correction that was dialed into it. Another plus was that he had them available in service rifle directions. Most match rifle sights adjust 180 out from what a service rifle does. Since I spent my first few years of competition using various US service rifles I wanted a sight that adjusted with the same directions for correction.

I was witness to a changing wind once at Rattlesnake shooting range in the Tri-Cities that blew everyone off the target at 1000 yards. It was dubbed a "Rattlesnake clean". Generally when clean is mentioned it means a perfect score but in this case the continually changing wind directions caught every shooter on the line by surprise.

For reference a 1000 yard target is 60" x 60". This is 6 moa total at 1000 yards. The sighting bull is 44". Each moa is a scoring ring. The center 10" is worth a 10, next ring is a 9, etc. You can be up to 3 moa off of center and still score points but if you don't hit the target it's a miss which is worth nothing.

Long range shooting is quite similar to meditation in outcome. The whole time you are engaged in the shooting portion every part of your brain is occupied with monitoring wind, adjusting sights if needed, computing wind adjustments (not all winds are a crosswind, most are angled so you have to modify what you have memorized for crosswind adjustments), and of course there is maintaining a proper hold that will ensure you don't muscle the rifle around when you finally take the shot.

There just isn't time to think about anything else during your time on the firing line. You are allowed 1 minute for each shot. It's a mind clearing experience that causes a general relaxation after the match is over. In my case I equate it to the feeling I've gotten from practiced meditation or really focused yoga.

Excellent info... much appreciated. 1 MOA= aprx 1" @ 100 yards. 60" square at 1000 yards = 6" square @ 100 yards..... which is pretty damn small.

Heck, that's like .6" square @ 10 yards. That's smaller than a postage stamp. Our nearest local range is limited to 240 yards, but target size can be varied, so it's all to scale for what ever difficulty level you want to deal with.
 

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