Tune's and o2's

06 T-RED S/C GT said:

If your state doesn't require emissions testing, then you don't really need to spend money on high-flow cats nor non foulers anyhow.. So I wouldn't even worry about it to begin with.. If your looking to get rid of your Bama tunes, I'd recommend looking into tuners such as VMP, Lund, JDM engineering, Steeda and Lito.. They're far better tuners over AM/Bama without a doubt.. As getting rid of CEL's, just get a revised tune that turns off the rear 02 sensors, heck Bama can even do that for you.. Just saying.

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I'm not worrying about the high flow cats or non-foulers, those were never options for me. VMP was the place I contacted for a tune, but he told me the CEL would be on. I'm not bashing or down talking them at all, I get why they don't want to do it. I have no problems with them at all.

So I can just ask bama to turn off the CEL in someone else's tune? Would I have to email them the VMP tune to have them turn them off, or can they send me like a patch to turn off the 02's? Not sure exactly how this process would work, so sorry for the ignorance/confusion.

Tune files are encrypted so individuals can't go in and edit the tune and tuners from other companies may also be locked out of the file. Tuners refusing to turn off o2's may be a blessing in disguise. If for whatever reason you move to an emissions state you will want them on. OBD Inspection stations in some states allow for up to 1 disabled monitor and if memory serves me right, turning off the rear o2's involve shutting down 2 monitors (Heated Exhaust Gas Oxygen Sensor and cat efficiency monitor) so you will strike out even with no CEL lit if you are in a state with this rule.

So if it were me I'd leave the sensors on and run non-foulers. I am using two on each side with no issues.

Right ... so I cannot then get a tune from VMP and then have Bama turn off the o2's.

I'm never moving, I already have catless X installed and will not be putting cats back in it.

so your saying that if I get another tune without the sensors turned off and run non-foulers then there will not be a CEL?

If the sensors are turned off there's no need for non-foulers. The car I bought from Florida had the sensors disabled and the rear o2 sensors were thrown out with the bungs plugged. It ran fine with no CEL.

my rear o2's are already turned off, in the Bama tune. I have no CEL.

I don't want the Bama tune, but the new tune will not turn off the rear o2's, so i'll have a CEL. So will non-foulers work on a 2011+ car? I haven't found anyone yet that's used them on '11+.

06JET said:

Kooks, These with the O2 risers.

http://www.brenspeed.com/6020ch.html

Yes, if he turns everything on in the tune I get no CEL. I think I will email him and ask why he doesn't have everything on. It may be because at WOT he has the AFR going fat and said that it should help to not to burn the cats out. The extra fuel would have a cooling effect and it may trigger the CEL. I could have misunderstood but that is how I remember it. Also I have phase limiters and he had to do something with the timing or the CEL would come on after long interstate driving.

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What you posted does seem to make sense, so I would contact him just for your own piece of mind to make certain there are no misunderstandings as to why he has the rear 02's turned off in the tune..

pass1over said:

I'm not worrying about the high flow cats or non-foulers, those were never options for me. VMP was the place I contacted for a tune, but he told me the CEL would be on. I'm not bashing or down talking them at all, I get why they don't want to do it. I have no problems with them at all.

So I can just ask bama to turn off the CEL in someone else's tune? Would I have to email them the VMP tune to have them turn them off, or can they send me like a patch to turn off the 02's? Not sure exactly how this process would work, so sorry for the ignorance/confusion.

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pass1over said:

my rear o2's are already turned off, in the Bama tune. I have no CEL.

I don't want the Bama tune, but the new tune will not turn off the rear o2's, so i'll have a CEL. So will non-foulers work on a 2011+ car? I haven't found anyone yet that's used them on '11+.

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First of all, no you cannot have somebody make adjustments/changes to another vendors tuning files.. If your not happy with your Bama tunes despite having the rear 02 sensors off, you'll need to get new tunes from somebody else.. If you want VMP tunes, you just request that you want your rear 02 sensors turned off, due to running off road exhaust, it's just as simple as that !

06 T-RED S/C GT said:

First of all, no you cannot have somebody make adjustments/changes to another vendors tuning files.. If your not happy with your Bama tunes despite having the rear 02 sensors off, you'll need to get new tunes from somebody else.. If you want VMP tunes, you just request that you want your rear 02 sensors turned off, due to running off road exhaust, it's just as simple as that !

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Correct, I was pretty sure that's how it was but wanted to hear someone else say it.

And no, it's not that easy. VMP will not turn the rear sensors off, I've asked. But like I said before, that's cool, I totally understand why. No ill feelings towards them at all.

I've found that Lund will tune my car and turn them off, so I can get rid of the Bama tune and try something else.

Looking at that report, the OBD 2 section shows only 2 monitors complete. The rest are "unsupported", which means turned off. That emission test should have resulted in a "FAIL", as there are 8 monitors supported and supposed to be completed to pass.

In PA, ONE monitor is OK to be "incomplete" and the car passes legally with 7 monitors complete. This is going by 2007 specs. For 11, that may not pass, may need all 8 and no permanent codes.

Also, there is an additional background process in the PCM after sometime in 2009. This has to do with the "permanent" DTCs that can show up in the PCM. These DTCs CANNOT be cleared by a scan tool. Clearing the fault only turns off the CEL. The fault must be repaired and the PCM will clear the permanent code after a few drive cycles are completed. The EPA caught on to ppl clearing the CEL and getting an emission sticker. Then driving the rest of the year with a CEL on, and not fix the issue.

Ps: I'm running Magnaflow catted X.

pass1over said:

Correct, I was pretty sure that's how it was but wanted to hear someone else say it.

And no, it's not that easy. VMP will not turn the rear sensors off, I've asked. But like I said before, that's cool, I totally understand why. No ill feelings towards them at all.

I've found that Lund will tune my car and turn them off, so I can get rid of the Bama tune and try something else.

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So if VMP will not turn the 02's off, then go with Lund or Lito.. Steeda will also turn them off in their tunes and so will Brenspeed, as I run their tunes which have the 02 sensors turned off..

Juice said:

Looking at that report, the OBD 2 section shows only 2 monitors complete. The rest are "unsupported", which means turned off. That emission test should have resulted in a "FAIL", as there are 8 monitors supported and supposed to be completed to pass.

In PA, ONE monitor is OK to be "incomplete" and the car passes legally with 7 monitors complete. This is going by 2007 specs. For 11, that may not pass.

Also, there is an additional background process in the PCM after sometime in 2009. This has to do with the "permanent" DTCs that can show up in the PCM. These DTCs CANNOT be cleared by a scan tool. The fault must be repaired and the PCM will clear the permanent code after a few drive cycles are completed. The EPA caught on to ppl clearing the CEL and getting an emission sticker. Then driving the rest of the year with a CEL on, and not fix the issue.

Ps: I'm running Magnaflow catted X.

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unsupported as far as the software is concerned means the vehicle doesn't have said system. it was a way to trick the systems a few years back, the newer software will not allow the test to happen with such status on a newer car.

in NY, you don't fail, they just can't process the test.

Juice said:

Looking at that report, the OBD 2 section shows only 2 monitors complete. The rest are "unsupported", which means turned off. That emission test should have resulted in a "FAIL", as there are 8 monitors supported and supposed to be completed to pass.

In PA, ONE monitor is OK to be "incomplete" and the car passes legally with 7 monitors complete. This is going by 2007 specs. For 11, that may not pass, may need all 8 and no permanent codes.

Also, there is an additional background process in the PCM after sometime in 2009. This has to do with the "permanent" DTCs that can show up in the PCM. These DTCs CANNOT be cleared by a scan tool. Clearing the fault only turns off the CEL. The fault must be repaired and the PCM will clear the permanent code after a few drive cycles are completed. The EPA caught on to ppl clearing the CEL and getting an emission sticker. Then driving the rest of the year with a CEL on, and not fix the issue.

Ps: I'm running Magnaflow catted X.

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I'm actually considering either Magnaflow 59956 or Thunderbolt 415250 HF cats to add to my O/R prochamber.. I'll go with which ever one that will increase the odd's of passing OBD II emissions testing in PA

pass1over said:

I don't want the Bama tune, but the new tune will not turn off the rear o2's, so i'll have a CEL. So will non-foulers work on a 2011+ car? I haven't found anyone yet that's used them on '11+.

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I was going to say find a different tuner who will turn off the sensors, but it looks like you got a hold of Lund already. As for non-foulers working on Coyotes, it seems they aren't as cut and dry as 3v's and older cars.

If you read the OBD readiness thread by Gabe, he has gone through the ringer trying to get his car to pass. Long story short the non-foulers/spacers did not work for him and he was in a similar situation as you. His tuner actually had to change the tune to get the car to ready. Maybe he'll chime in and share the details. As Juice mentioned, if there are incomplete monitors you will not pass.

If/when the EPA decides to mandate sniffer tests in every state it's game over for us.

If you can get an unlocked tune file you can make changes yourself. Over the last couple years that has gotten more difficult most vendors aren't allowing it. Tunes are often locked so customers can't do anything with it.

If the tune is unlocked (or you wrote the tune yourself) you can make changes so that the monitors show as not available. The test equipment thinks the car doesn't have that hardware and so it doesn't count against the test. This still works for some people.

If defoulers don't work it is very difficult to get the monitors to pass. If the vendor won't change the tune for you, the file is locked and you are unable, or the state/area you are in is somehow able to catch monitors being disabled intentionally then you're stuck putting converters back on. Sniff test will be the same thing.

It may be possible with an offroad pipe to get the monitors to complete. From what I've read it is a huge pita and you'd be better off giving up and putting converters back on the car.

As an aside to this technical discussion I think most of this testing is a scam. What is the point in forcing owners to pay for testing every year or two on cars that are literally less than 10 years old and have well under 100K on them. They ALL come with catalytic converters. 99/100 people are not going to remove their converters or sensors from the car. It is just a money grab that's it.

stkjock said:

unsupported as far as the software is concerned means the vehicle doesn't have said system. it was a way to trick the systems a few years back, the newer software will not allow the test to happen with such status on a newer car.

in NY, you don't fail, they just can't process the test.

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The inspector should know how many monitors the car should have from the factory. Any less = not a factory tune/program, not approved, fail.

I'm in a similar situation. Only 3 of my monitors complete of the 8. But that is another story. Lucky I'm exempt this time around, so I have a year to get it all worked out.

What state are you in? I'm under the impression that some people are still getting a pass with monitors disabled. I guess it depends on where you are and what place you go to for the OBD2 testing.

I'm in PA. If a station in PA issued a sticker on that car, they would have gotten a visit from the emission police within a day. No joke.

pass1over said:

Correct, I was pretty sure that's how it was but wanted to hear someone else say it.

And no, it's not that easy. VMP will not turn the rear sensors off, I've asked. But like I said before, that's cool, I totally understand why. No ill feelings towards them at all.

I've found that Lund will tune my car and turn them off, so I can get rid of the Bama tune and try something else.

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Nobody else, myself included, ever had a problem with VMP turning off the rear o2 sensors. But that was 2 years ago.

06 T-RED S/C GT said:

So if VMP will not turn the 02's off, then go with Lund or Lito.. Steeda will also turn them off in their tunes and so will Brenspeed, as I run their tunes which have the 02 sensors turned off..

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I have. Like I said, and you quoted, Lund will tune my car and turn them off. I swear it feels like i'm playing the who's on first bit with you, lol

46addict said:

I was going to say find a different tuner who will turn off the sensors, but it looks like you got a hold of Lund already. As for non-foulers working on Coyotes, it seems they aren't as cut and dry as 3v's and older cars.

If you read the OBD readiness thread by Gabe, he has gone through the ringer trying to get his car to pass. Long story short the non-foulers/spacers did not work for him and he was in a similar situation as you. His tuner actually had to change the tune to get the car to ready. Maybe he'll chime in and share the details. As Juice mentioned, if there are incomplete monitors you will not pass.

If/when the EPA decides to mandate sniffer tests in every state it's game over for us.

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That's why I didn't want to go that route with the defoulers being a "maybe they will work". I've read that if you put some 000 s/s steel wool in there is helps as well. I'm not worried about passing any test as I'm in FL (and am never moving). I'm just concerned with having a CEL.

Pentalab said:

Nobody else, myself included, ever had a problem with VMP turning off the rear o2 sensors. But that was 2 years ago.

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Well, I contacted them 5 days ago and they will not do it. Don't know why nobody really believes me on this. But I went ahead and copied the email I got from them..


Shane Mone (VMP Performance)
Oct 5, 07:52 -05

Hello,
Unfortunately no due to EPA standards.


Emissions Notice:
IT IS OUR POLICY TO NOT DISABLE ANY FEDERALLY MANDATED EMISSIONS EQUIPMENT NOR MONITORS ON ANY VEHICLE WITH A VEHICLE IDENTIFICATION NUMBER (VIN). IT IS A FEDERAL OFFENSE FOR US TO DO SO.
Federal and several state and provincial laws prohibit the removal, modification or rendering inoperative of any part that affects emissions or safety on motor vehicles used on public streets or highways. VMP assumes no liability for any violations arising out of any federal, state or provincial emissions or safety requirements on motor vehicles arising out of the customer’s modifications and/or use of our products or services. It is the responsibility of the customer to determine if their modified vehicle complies with applicable laws.

We will not turn off rear O2's and you may have a check engine light. It will have zero bearing on the performance of your car. You will not pass any emissions test if you do not have catalytic converters, regardless of who tunes your vehicle. Unless we hear from you in 48 hours stating that you do not want to complete this purchase we will write and deliver your custom tune per the order. There are NO refunds for custom tuning for any reason per the Terms and Conditions of our store. Thank you.


I really wanted to go with VMP as they are in my home state and i'm all about trying to keep my dollars as local as possible. However, their business practices don't work for me, and that's cool. I have no problems how they want to run their business. The other reputable and recommended tuner, Lund, will work for me. So that is the route I am going.

Alex Flores tunes for them. The dude in the video I posted.

He states as much in the video. They don't want trouble with the federales.

I am surprised they wouldn't cancel the CEL though and just set it to not report. You can still have the sensors left on in that config. Just no CEL.

not being a lawyer, hard to say, but I would think they could get one to sign a waiver,

"this tune is provided for off road or racing use only, not to be used on public road ways, etc etc, blah blah blah"

similar to a X-pipe - but who knows in today's environment.