07 gt500 heat exchanger upgrade

Pentalab

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Fans are over rated. I would rather have the bigger core.

Typ fans are only 16 mph. Fans work good at red lights, or staging lines. For DD use, the 3.125" thick 13/14 GT-500 HE is the bomb. Once > 20 mph, the fans are not doing anything...except impeding airflow.
 

vnmous1

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Typ fans are only 16 mph. Fans work good at red lights, or staging lines. For DD use, the 3.125" thick 13/14 GT-500 HE is the bomb. Once > 20 mph, the fans are not doing anything...except impeding airflow.

The Spal 11" runs at 37mph in static air.

Impeding air is not a concern for these systems.

If cars only operated at cruise speeds in reasonable ambient air, no one would need a fanned unit at all, but that's not the case.

The other part of the equation that's being left out is recovery time. Even if a car is operating at cruise, after it's shut off it's sitting there baking. Key on/pump on and it'll move fluid, but until you're moving at cruise (or at least 35+mph) again, you're not getting anything over the core regardless of it's size.

Our triple pass/dual fan unit is superior to the one I have on my 07 Gt500, but it (a dual pass/dual fan with 10" Spals) will drop IAT2 from 170 at start up to 120-125 in less than 90 seconds while sitting still. This is after a pass and a 45 minute rest in the pits with no fans/pumps running.

Just some data and food for thought.

bj
 

Department Of Boost

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The Spal 11" runs at 37mph in static air.

Impeding air is not a concern for these systems.

If cars only operated at cruise speeds in reasonable ambient air, no one would need a fanned unit at all, but that's not the case.

The other part of the equation that's being left out is recovery time. Even if a car is operating at cruise, after it's shut off it's sitting there baking. Key on/pump on and it'll move fluid, but until you're moving at cruise (or at least 35+mph) again, you're not getting anything over the core regardless of it's size.

Our triple pass/dual fan unit is superior to the one I have on my 07 Gt500, but it (a dual pass/dual fan with 10" Spals) will drop IAT2 from 170 at start up to 120-125 in less than 90 seconds while sitting still. This is after a pass and a 45 minute rest in the pits with no fans/pumps running.

Just some data and food for thought.

bj

Upon startup all PD blower IAT's drop dramatically regardless of if there are fans on the HE or not.

I'm not suggesting fans have no value. Only that they are not the silver bullet that they are commonly thought of as. For a drag car they certainly have their upsides. For a daily not nearly as much. For a track day car ditching the fans and going with more core volume is far more advantageous than being able to cool the water down in the pits. Like with most things there are not absolutes. Different tools for different jobs and all of that.
 

Pentalab

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The Spal 11" runs at 37mph in static air.

Impeding air is not a concern for these systems.

If cars only operated at cruise speeds in reasonable ambient air, no one would need a fanned unit at all, but that's not the case.

The other part of the equation that's being left out is recovery time. Even if a car is operating at cruise, after it's shut off it's sitting there baking. Key on/pump on and it'll move fluid, but until you're moving at cruise (or at least 35+mph) again, you're not getting anything over the core regardless of it's size.

Our triple pass/dual fan unit is superior to the one I have on my 07 Gt500, but it (a dual pass/dual fan with 10" Spals) will drop IAT2 from 170 at start up to 120-125 in less than 90 seconds while sitting still. This is after a pass and a 45 minute rest in the pits with no fans/pumps running.

Just some data and food for thought.

bj

Does your system use TWO of these 11" Spal fans ?? How many CFM is each fan ? It must be through the stratosphere if they are 37 mph.

The 16" mishimoto is rated for aprx 1850 cfm... but airflow is only 16 mph. ( uses a 4" diam motor in the center). So what happens when the car is traveling at say...100 mph ? Do the fan blades speed way up? Cuz if they don't, they are impeding airflow. Pressure goes up to the square of the velocity. Forget the fans for a minute. A 100 mph wind will be quadruple the pressure of a 50 mph wind. A 100 mph wind will have 16 times the pressure of a 25 mph wind. (and 4 x the volume).

I don't have a fan on my 18" tall x 21" wide roush HE. I installed the 7 bar upper grille to allow more air in. The eng fan, when on high speed, is ample to move air from grille to HE, to AC rad, to Auto tranny rad, then through the eng rad. F1 doesn't use fans at all....but they locate the various rads in the side pods.

If I had to do this all over gain, the 13/14 GT-500 HE, with it's 3.125" thick core, plus a bigger pump, perhaps a 13/14 GT-500 pump..would be the optimum ticket for most uses. Then use the eng fan on high speed to provide for any additional airflow through the HE. ( shrouding /boxing in, the various rads would probably go a long way to improve total airflow through the entire mess).
 
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Pentalab

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This is what I was thinking. Seemed rather optimistic.

If we know the rated CFM of each 11" spal fan, then it will take all of 2 mins to calculate the air velocity through each one.


If the 11" spal fans truly are 37 mph, (and assuming a 4" diam motor hub), then their cfm would be slightly greater than the 16" mishimoto fan, which does 16 mph and 1850 cfm. To pull that feat off, the spal fans would have to be spinning at slightly over twice the rpm of the mishimoto fan. At that point, a pair of 11" spal fans would be providing 4000 cfm in total....which I find tough to believe. I'll look up the spal specs and see what they say.
 

Department Of Boost

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If we know the rated CFM of each 11" spal fan, then it will take all of 2 mins to calculate the air velocity through each one.


If the 11" spal fans truly are 37 mph, (and assuming a 4" diam motor hub), then their cfm would be slightly greater than the 16" mishimoto fan, which does 16 mph and 1850 cfm. To pull that feat off, the spal fans would have to be spinning at slightly over twice the rpm of the mishimoto fan. At that point, a pair of 11" spal fans would be providing 4000 cfm in total....which I find tough to believe. I'll look up the spal specs and see what they say.

It looks like they're using these here:

http://www.jegs.com/i/SPAL/063/30100411/10002/-1?CAWELAID=230006180000986405&CAGPSPN=pla&catargetid=230006180003463698&cadevice=c&gclid=CJTKn76AncoCFYEdHwoduJcLbg

844cfm/fan
 

Pentalab

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If that's the case, sorry, they are not 37 mph. The 844 is sucking. They are 885 when pushing. And in both those cases, that's with zero back pressure. Fans and blowers are typ rated in cfm vs back pressure..with back pressure measured in inches of water. In this case they rate em in both mm of H2O..and also inches of H2O. As you can see from their INSTALL manual, the cfm drops like a rock with increasing back pressure. They also suck 8A per fan.

The 16" mishimoto fan has a surface area of 188.4 sq inches ( that also factors in subtracting the 12.56 sq inches from the 4" diam motor hub).

The 11" spal fan has a surface area of just 82.425 sq inches (again, the hub has been subtracted).

One mishimoto put out slightly more than TWO spal fans. 1850 vs 1770 (both pushing).

No way in hell can the spal fans be 37 mph. They are only 15 mph. The mishimoto is only 16.1 mph. Nice try though.
 
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Department Of Boost

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If that's the case, sorry, they are not 37 mph. The 844 is sucking. They are 885 when pushing. And in both those cases, that's with zero back pressure. Fans and blowers are typ rated in cfm vs back pressure..with back pressure measured in inches of water. In this case they rate em in both mm of H2O..and also inches of H2O. As you can see from their INSTALL manual, the cfm drops like a rock with increasing back pressure. They also suck 8A per fan.

The 16" mishimoto fan has a surface area of 188.4 sq inches ( that also factors in subtracting the 12.56 sq inches from the 4" diam motor hub).

The 11" spal fan has a surface area of just 82.425 sq inches (again, the hub has been subtracted).

One mishimoto put out slightly more than TWO spal fans. 1850 vs 1770 (both pushing).

No way in hell can the spal fans be 37 mph. They are only 15 mph. The mishimoto is only 16.1 mph. Nice try though.

Thanks for doing the maths on that. I thought that was a rather optimistic claim.:whistle1:
 

eighty6gt

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I need pentalab to find me a cheap 2013/14 GT500 exchanger!

I think my Roush single pass will work given the low environmental temps and my mild build. 11-12 psi if that isn't really pushing things even with a small TVS. We'll see.
 

Department Of Boost

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I need pentalab to find me a cheap 2013/14 GT500 exchanger!

I think my Roush single pass will work given the low environmental temps and my mild build. 11-12 psi if that isn't really pushing things even with a small TVS. We'll see.

I've got one for $300 I'll sell.
 

Pentalab

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I've got one for $300 I'll sell.

86GT.... go for it. If that doesn't solve iat problems ( with ur 13/14 GT-500 pump)....then nothing will work. OEM price is quadruple that.
 

rednek01

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86GT.... go for it. If that doesn't solve iat problems ( with ur 13/14 GT-500 pump)....then nothing will work. OEM price is quadruple that.

That is what I will be doing as soon as things turn around in the Oil and Gas industry.
 

908ssp

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You can't have too big a cooler or too much pump.

My 2010.



My 2015

 

eighty6gt

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300 eh... we'll see if you have it in a while here.

Man I wish I had the money/etc. to do instrumented testing on these exchangers... Just see what the return temp on the water is going from one to the other in the same weather. Guess I'd just need a temp sensor with 0-5v out and hook it to the inputs of my SCT.

There was this DOB guy on here who did testing on the hx pumps - they were off the car on the bench, and I was thinking over lunch something like that would be best to test exchangers. Take a known volume of water, heat it to a given temperature, then pass it through the exchanger with a fan blowing at a given speed passing through - a known volume of air. See how long it takes to cool the water x degrees.

Then switch up the exchanger, repeat the test. No more worrying about weather, traffic, how long you're flooring it.
 
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Wes06

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DOB=sqidd BTW
We had someone doing math for each given HE, length, width. Depth, tube diameter, fin density etc.

Hey Jason did anything ever come from that?
 

Department Of Boost

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300 eh... we'll see if you have it in a while here.

Man I wish I had the money/etc. to do instrumented testing on these exchangers... Just see what the return temp on the water is going from one to the other in the same weather. Guess I'd just need a temp sensor with 0-5v out and hook it to the inputs of my SCT.

There was this DOB guy on here who did testing on the hx pumps - they were off the car on the bench, and I was thinking over lunch something like that would be best to test exchangers. Take a known volume of water, heat it to a given temperature, then pass it through the exchanger with a fan blowing at a given speed passing through - a known volume of air. See how long it takes to cool the water x degrees.

Then switch up the exchanger, repeat the test. No more worrying about weather, traffic, how long you're flooring it.

I'm DOB

Man, that would be one HELL of a test to rig up. Not necessarily complicated, but time consuming and expensive. It would be fun though. I love that stuff!!!!

I wonder what the best way of heating the water would be???? It would have to be FAST. Basically you would replace the IC in the "loop" with some sort of heater that could flow water though it.

DOB=sqidd BTW
We had someone doing math for each given HE, length, width. Depth, tube diameter, fin density etc.

Hey Jason did anything ever come from that?

He needed to get more money for his time than I could afford. Too bad, that would have been cool.
 

eighty6gt

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It would be easy, I'd use a barrel and a stock tank heater, they are 220V, IIRC. It can take forever to heat up, just get it to 90F or what have you, then you're just returning to the tank and taking temp values at given time intervals.

tzGE3td.png


Here are some familiar, typical looking heat exchangers with heat transfer values. That double pass is very effective. I have a copy of the "full face," the double pass "large" which probably isn't even as good as the latest ford piece can move almost twice the heat.

I have found a 2013 GT500 HE for $375 USD here in Canada. No shipping. Where is DOB shipping from, and how much does that exchanger weigh, about 5-8 pounds I'd guess? Probably fit in a 30x14X14 box.
 
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