Vorshlag "Street Pro" = 9 seconds

SoundGuyDave

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A buddy of mine posted up a video of my best Palmer lap, plus the lap before. It's kind of boring and the audio is bad but I would love any tips or advice. I have a hunch about several things I'm doing wrong but would appreciate any free coaching. Thank you!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X5wLfmK4EoI

First, the disclaimers. Without being in the car, and feeling the grip capabilities, there's no real way to tell how close you are to the edge, unless you've got the car dancing ON the edge. So, I'm not going talk about throttle, except in a couple of cases.

Overall, it looked like a nice drive, and one you should be proud of! PLEASE take any comments I make a purely constructive criticism, geared to perhaps pick up a little bit more next time out, and nothing more than that!

Generally, I have to agree with the previous "hands" comments. 9:00/3:00 and leave them there. Shuffle-steering isn't really needed at that track, and the way you "pre-load" the wheel position (9:00/2:00 for an upcoming right-hander) WILL bite you in the ass once you get consistently close to the edge. The tiny little bobble you had at around 0:30 should be a warning to you. You had to snap-correct to the left when the back end stepped out a bit, and your hands were out of position to be able to do that. Your TOP hand should be the one driving the wheel-turn, and your BOTTOM hand is really there to act as a damper and for fine control. The ONLY time you should have your hands off the 3:00/9:00 marks are if you have a serious "oh shit" tank-slapper, and you essentially have to palm the wheel to try to catch it. Oh, and ease up on the death-grip! You really only need the thumb and a couple of fingers to move the wheel, and with a light grip, you get all kinds of feedback through the wheel (tiny shimmy right at the edge of traction!) that the "big grip" will damp out.

From what I could see, your eyes are being well used. It looks like you're seeing well down the track, and are looking through the corners, so good job!

What's with the little throttle-lift around 2:15? If you think you're just that hair bit too fast for entry, don't lift, just brush the brakes with your left foot. Try to focus on being ANGRY every time you can't be WOT, and learn to minimize that time when your foot isn't on the floor. Sounds odd, but trust me, it works! Be more aggressive with the throttle on corner exit, and hold that sucker down until you need to brake again.

Corner at 2:30 and at 2:38: Looks like you took two bites at the apple with the wheel motion. Turn-in, relax, then turn-in again. BAD habit to get into, as it unloads the suspension and then reloads it again. Focus on one wheel motion into the corner, and one wheel motion out of the corner.

Also on that note, I did notice several times where you turned in and got the car set, then had to add more wheel, or take some out. Instead of wheel-work, try doing it with the throttle pedal. If you're understeering, lift a little bit; this does two things at the same time. First, it transfers a bit more weight to the fronts, which may help them bite better, AND second, it unloads the rear a bit as well, which may help with rotation.

Finally, I would alter my line though the corner at 3:09 to focus on a later turn-in and apex point. It looks like you had to pinch the exit to keep on track, and that cost you an easy quarter-second or more. I suspect that you just turned-in too soon, but be cognizant of how your turn-in point affects your apex and thus track-out points as well. Either that, or you just understeered past the apex point. Tough to tell from the camera angle. In slow, out fast!

For the right-left-right complex starting at 3:19, I would probably take a bit diffferent line through there. The first part looks good, with a track-right exit line, but I would delay the turn-in for another 50-75', and get more of a traditional late-apex run through that sweeper. The wider radius at entry allows you to carry a bit more speed into the corner, rather than cutting across diagonally to the inside edge the way you did. Then, when making the transition from outside to inside, it's a shallower angle across the track, most likely with a higher entry speed into the left-hander, which will allow you to carry all the extra speed through exit. I haven't driven that track, so there may be an off-camber bit of pavement, or other factor that I'm not seeing. Maybe something to play with next time you're out?

The way you took that corner had an initial turn-in at 3:24, then another, bigger wheel move at 3:29. I *THINK* my line through there would turn that into a single move, focusing on a track-left exit for the left-hander.

That would also set you up in a stable position for the final right-hander in the complex. Always (and I mean ALWAYS) prioritize the corner leading to the longest straight. In this case, it's the exit from the final right-hander, which should be as close to a traditional late-apex turn as you can make it. Absolutely sacrifice the first right to set the left up to allow you to MAKE that final late-apex right. You will gain very little on the 150' straight, OR the nice long sweeper, but you can lose a bunch if you're out of position, or have the controls crossed-up for that run onto the straight.

At 3:35, you had a little slide and recovery which had you momentarily unstable for that final turn. It also looked like you may have turned-in a tick early there, but that may have just been a result of the slide, as well.

Again, overall it looked like a job well done!
 

stevbd

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Wow, absolutely awesome feedback guys, thank you both very much for doing that. I really appreciate it.

So this is the first time I've ever seen video of my driving and my first reaction was, "WTF, I move my hands THAT much??!! And I grip the wheel THAT tight??" But I understand what I need to do to fix that. But yeah, it's pretty ugly.

On the rest of it, if I am hearing you guys correctly, it seems I am often driving a little too conservative with the throttle and brakes, but then at the same time too awkward and abrupt with my steering inputs. Even as I was out there, I could feel that I was lifting and coasting all over the place and going into a lot of corners with a pretty soft brake. And then watching the video, I noticed that on a lot of corner exits I am unwinding the wheel to reach the track out point. If I am understanding you guys correctly, I could brake harder on the entry, roll in more throttle on the exit, hold the wheel steady, and just let the car push out to the track out point with a lot more throttle and speed. Is that the basic gist of it?

It's hard to tell from the video but my tires were pretty rarely squealing, so I think I could just go faster in a lot of places. But I want to do it right.

That right left right combo going on to the straight is just tough. I tried it as one long wide late apex left turn, and then more of a double apex like on the video, and just never quite got it right. I came up with that double apex line following a gutted BMW race car that was mucho fast, but I don't think I was doing it quite like him. I think the idea is that by straightening out the right into the left, you can carry more speed longer, then hit the brakes hard to set up for the rest of the sequence. Will just have to play with it next year.

Anyhow, thanks again for the feedback!
 

noldevin

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I have the same death grip and multi-adjustment problems you do. That and looking farther ahead are going to be my main focus points next season. A better seat would probably go a long way with the death grip too, but that might not be in the budget this time around.
 

stevbd

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Agreed, the stock seat really does kind of suck when you start going faster. I was looking for a track pack car if only for the recaros and rear diff but I never could find one with a glass roof. Plus I daily drive this car so I'm reluctant to go all aftermarket race seat and airbag lights, etc. I'm thinking about taking it to an auto upholstery shop to see if they could build me better bolsters using the oem seat, maybe that would be a reasonable middle ground improvement.
 

SoundGuyDave

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The drivers seat will swap out with two nuts, two bolts, and one electrical connector. It takes about 10 minutes to do the swap, roughly half the time it takes to swap out pads for your track day. ;-)
 

noldevin

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Yeah it's nice and easy. But the harness bar or ideally roll bar and harnesses, not so much :p
 

Norm Peterson

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Agreed, the stock seat really does kind of suck when you start going faster. I was looking for a track pack car if only for the recaros and rear diff but I never could find one with a glass roof. Plus I daily drive this car so I'm reluctant to go all aftermarket race seat and airbag lights, etc. I'm thinking about taking it to an auto upholstery shop to see if they could build me better bolsters using the oem seat, maybe that would be a reasonable middle ground improvement.
Wasn't there some sort of drop-in padding that would provide similar lateral constraint function?

A separate non-slacking strap may also help. Tends to keep at least the lap portion of the OE 3-point belts from going slack, and seems to be acceptable to tech inspectors. Old seat belts cut a little shorter, stitched together, and wrapped around the back of the seat cushion will work. The stitching need only be strong enough to withstand somewhat more than however much static tightening you're willing to subject yourself to, doesn't have to be pretty.

picture.php



Norm
 

stevbd

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Interesting ideas. I didn't realize swapping seats was so easy. Any preferences for a basic cost-effective track day seat? Would tech require a similar seat for an instructor or is that rule just for the restraints? And are 4 point belts really not a good idea for the track or is that issue overblown?
 

2Fass240us

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I have the same death grip...
Try street driving with just your thumbs hooked in the wheel, then add a lightly-gripped hand. Try keeping at least one thumb stationary during turns, then re-engage the other thumb, then hand.

Like most things (including H-T), it's better to learn on the street where you can play with technique a little bit more. When you get to the track you only have to make minor adjustments for speed.
 

noldevin

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Try street driving with just your thumbs hooked in the wheel, then add a lightly-gripped hand. Try keeping at least one thumb stationary during turns, then re-engage the other thumb, then hand.

Like most things (including H-T), it's better to learn on the street where you can play with technique a little bit more. When you get to the track you only have to make minor adjustments for speed.

I'll have to give that a try, though i don't deathgrip on the street. Not entirely sure what you mean by leaving a thumb stationary though, it has to turn with the wheel?
 

Norm Peterson

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I'll have to give that a try, though i don't deathgrip on the street.
But in street driving are you always holding both hands on the wheel and specifically at/near 3 & 9 unless you're shifting or rolling a window up/down?

I'm thinking that people tend to increase their grip on the wheel to take some of the load off their shoulder muscles.

I was advised by one instructor to flex my fingers about once a lap.


Norm
 

stevbd

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LOL, if I'm honest I rarely have both hands ON the wheel in daily driving much less in the right positions.

I find the instructions to have hands at 9 and 3 and to keep them loose kind of at odds with each other. I know it's right, I just find it hard to do. When I keep my hands at 9 and 3, I feel like I'm pushing the wheel into the turn with the palm of my outside hand, which winds up somewhere around the 12 position, and then my arms are kind of all twisted up and my grip tightens. I've only had an instructor ride with me one time - remember I'm a noob at this - and he told me to "preload" the wheel as SoundGuyDave put it so that my hands would wind up at about 9 and 3 DURING THE TURN. As I understood it, his point was that by pulling on the wheel with your inside hand and with your arm in a comfortable position, you'd be more relaxed, feel more info through the wheel, and be better positioned to either dial in or dial out steering as needed. Since receiving that advice, every experienced track driver I've heard from has said he was wrong so now I'm trying to undo it. Plus he was a BMWCCA instructor so what does he know right? :)
 

Norm Peterson

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Where would a line along the steering column intersect your body? That may have some influence on how you perceive your hand forces as you turn the wheel - which to me seems should feel more like forces in the plane of the steering wheel as pure rotation about the steering column than as pushing/pulling somewhat out of plane at the steering wheel rim.

I always set the steering wheel such that the above-described steering column line bisects a construction line drawn between my shoulder pivot points, or as close to that as achievable. This keeps your grip on the steering wheel rim at approximately a constant distance where you aren't flexing/unflexing your elbows nearly as much as you turn the wheel. In most cars, this ends up putting the steering wheel in the full-low position.


Norm
 
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SoundGuyDave

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LOL, if I'm honest I rarely have both hands ON the wheel in daily driving much less in the right positions.

I find the instructions to have hands at 9 and 3 and to keep them loose kind of at odds with each other. I know it's right, I just find it hard to do. When I keep my hands at 9 and 3, I feel like I'm pushing the wheel into the turn with the palm of my outside hand, which winds up somewhere around the 12 position, and then my arms are kind of all twisted up and my grip tightens.

It's the old saw... Practice doesn't make perfect; PERFECT practice makes perfect! What we're doing on track can realistically be summed up in the phrase "precision driving." If we're not precise (brake points, turn-in/apex/track-out points, throttle, brake, wheel techniques, etc.), then we're not fast, which is the ultimate goal of what we do out there. Many of those "precision driving techniques," like heel/toe, vision, hand position most notably, absolutely translate to every-day driving. Braking and throttle not so much. Hell, I heel/toe consistently, and I DO run a traditional late-apex line on just about every turn or corner, just within my lane, instead of using the WHOLE street. All of those are good habits to get into, and once you're in the habit, it's fewer things to think about, concentrate on, or remember when on track. Frees your mind for the important stuff, like figuring out a way around the guy ahead of you! Seriously, though, I would strongly advocate using as many "track" techniques as possible in around-town driving, and hand position (and discipline) should be some of the first to get cemented.


I've only had an instructor ride with me one time - remember I'm a noob at this - and he told me to "preload" the wheel as SoundGuyDave put it so that my hands would wind up at about 9 and 3 DURING THE TURN. As I understood it, his point was that by pulling on the wheel with your inside hand and with your arm in a comfortable position, you'd be more relaxed, feel more info through the wheel, and be better positioned to either dial in or dial out steering as needed. Since receiving that advice, every experienced track driver I've heard from has said he was wrong so now I'm trying to undo it. Plus he was a BMWCCA instructor so what does he know right? :)
Ouch. Yeah, put me in the "that's wrong!" category as well. The idea of having a nice squared and relaxed position mid-corner is actually good, BUT this is one where survival has to trump it. With the wheel cocked 90* but your hands at 9:00/3:00, you have NO room for wheel motion if needed to counter-steer a skid, or worse, a full-blown tank-slapper. You also lose your "zero" reference point of where the wheels are pointing, which is kinda important for skid-correction without completely bailing out of the race. Keep them welded at 9:00/3:00, and you can ALWAYS find "zero," where the wheels are pointing straight ahead. I've often needed to counter-steer the other way to save the car, but I can't think of one time I needed to suddenly add a ton of wheel in the SAME direction as the corner.

I take that back. I did, once. Making a pass at corner entry (where else??), and did the "I'm going to out-brake him" thing in a 944, but instead of out-braking, I just locked them up, and started sliding straight through the corner. Inside, with traffic 2-wide all around on a restart. Oops. Only thing to do was to spin the car to the inside, towards apex, and let the sidways motion scrub off speed and give everybody some space to get around me. Oh, if I had to concentrate on the 9/3 thing, plus the heel-toe, and vision stuff, I wouldn't have had the brainpower left over to study my target, plan my move, assess a bail-out strategy, and then execute the bail-out. THIS is where habit pays off!
 

SoundGuyDave

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I always set the steering wheel such that the above-described steering column line bisects a construction line drawn between my shoulder pivot points, or as close to that as achievable. This keeps your grip on the steering wheel rim at approximately a constant distance where you aren't flexing/unflexing your elbows nearly as much as you turn the wheel. In most cars, this ends up putting the steering wheel in the full-low position.


Norm

Interesting! I'm actually a "wheel high" guy, myself. I like my 9:00 and 3:00 hand position to have the grip roughy vertically even with my shoulder joints, and find that most comfortable. Granted, the tilt-steering in my hooptie is LONG gone...

SAM_0281_zps4e6ff083.jpg


20l1508.jpg


I think this is one of those "driver comfort" things plays in. There's probably a physio-ergonomic argument to be made for one or the other (or something in between), but I'd say if it works for you, then it's perfect.
 

Norm Peterson

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I think this is one of those "driver comfort" things plays in. There's probably a physio-ergonomic argument to be made for one or the other (or something in between), but I'd say if it works for you, then it's perfect.
I think you're onto something with 'driver comfort' . . . possibly starting with what you might need in terms of seatback angle.


On street driving . . . given that you accelerate, brake, and turn corners there, the biggest differences from track driving are the speeds and g's involved, and the amount of pavement that you're allowed to use. No reason to not use the same techniques at the slower pace. Hell, there might even be a good reason to use at least some of these techniques in street driving even if you've never driven on a track and don't ever intend to.


Norm
 

stevbd

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I heel toe pretty much everywhere in daily driving but am going to start trying to practice these other things too. It's hard to safely practice trail braking and throttle steering while stuck behind a Prius. But at least now I know what I'm trying to practice.

Anyhow, I'm anxious to work on these techniques on the track next year. You've opened my eyes to some things and I'm hopeful I can find a good bit more time with just driver mods. Thanks again!
 

SoundGuyDave

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I heel toe pretty much everywhere in daily driving but am going to start trying to practice these other things too. It's hard to safely practice trail braking and throttle steering while stuck behind a Prius. But at least now I know what I'm trying to practice.

Anyhow, I'm anxious to work on these techniques on the track next year. You've opened my eyes to some things and I'm hopeful I can find a good bit more time with just driver mods. Thanks again!

Happy to help. When trying to "practice" the more advanced stuff, like trail-braking or throttle-steering on the street, first make sure you're in a sane situation. Next, take advantage of "limited traction" situations, like rain/slush/snow. To effectively trail-brake or throttle-steer, you necessarily need to be near the edge of the friction-circle, and you're not going to get that on clean dry pavement without significant velocity.

On the street, you're not trying to milk every tenth out of it, but just get used to the feeling of being at the edge of traction, and how different control inputs make the car behave. Snowy night? Nobody around? Instead of creeping around the corner like normal, take it just a little bit quicker, and brake all the way to "apex," and see what that does. What did you notice coming back through the wheel, seat and brake pedal? Pulling into your driveway in slush, give the brakes a little pump right at the instant you turn-in, and see if that doesn't snap the car around in line with the driveway... Next time, try a harder stab, and see if you don't just slide, even with the wheels turned. I think you get the idea. DO NOT do this crap in traffic, when "stuck behind a Prius!" That's what sidewalks are for! (Joking!) Biggest thing to keep in mind is your "bail-out plan." If you botch the corner on track, you usually have some runoff to play with. Not so much if there are parked cars, curbs, or kids playing. Again, you CAN learn something just about every day, but make sure you know you're safe to do so. Better yet is to leave the advanced stuff for a track day, and just focus on the techniques, rather than lap times, or playing with that Evo, or whatever.
 

Vorshlag-Fair

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Interesting ideas. I didn't realize swapping seats was so easy. Any preferences for a basic cost-effective track day seat? Would tech require a similar seat for an instructor or is that rule just for the restraints? And are 4 point belts really not a good idea for the track or is that issue overblown?

Some answers....

1. 4 point belts are NOT ALLOWED with most track groups, and for good reason. Look at this.

4-point-belts-bad-idea-M.jpg


This is a popular internet car reviewer - who should know better. I see his videos using 4-points all the time. Even a blind tech marshal will fail this at almost any track event. In a crash that lap belt / buckle is going to ride up his chest, maybe just rip out his intestines, but he could slide underneath if its loose enough.

DSC_1069-M.jpg


A real 5-6-7-8 point belt (yes, there's an 8 point now!) has 1, 2 or 3 anti-submarine belts that keep the lap belt CENTERED ON YOUR HIP BONES, which are strong and can support your upper body in a high g-crash the best. Bones are stronger than gut, every time. ;)

B61G9410-M.jpg


2. A real racing seat is a safety, fatigue and lap time improvement. All three.

"Cost Effective" is relative, but a good FIA approved name brand seat is going to cost around $350-500 for a steel framed bottom mount fixed back seat, and around $650-850 for a composite seat.

i-XfV8Tgx-M.jpg


I wrote a little about how adding racing seats works here. Whatever you do, make sure to "test sit" in a variety of seats before you purchase one. Your local race shop should have some in their lobby - if they do, buy from them. :)

Cheers,
 

El_Tortuga

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Agreed, the stock seat really does kind of suck when you start going faster. I was looking for a track pack car if only for the recaros and rear diff but I never could find one with a glass roof. Plus I daily drive this car so I'm reluctant to go all aftermarket race seat and airbag lights, etc. I'm thinking about taking it to an auto upholstery shop to see if they could build me better bolsters using the oem seat, maybe that would be a reasonable middle ground improvement.

Not like a proper seat and harnesses, but a g-loc clip helps and can sit on a swath of the mesh tool box drawer liner helps reduce your butt movement.
 

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