Noob/Intro

Bad Horsie

Member
Joined
Jul 23, 2017
Posts
65
Reaction score
9
Location
Ocean NJ
Ok!!! Thanks a lot for all the replies and advise. here is a little info on me so you guys know what your dealing with.
Road course experience. zip. unless some Auto x in my old 240Z 20yrs ago counts. Learned a lot back then. Under steering, knocking cones all over the place.had fun and got better after every run.
I'm a professional Tractor Trailer Tanker Driver by trade.for 27yrs now. So the motor skills are there and you certainly must know and understand speed ,brake control proper entry and exits to curves especially when you have 20 tons of liquid moving around at 65mph....gotta keep those turns flat. when im in WV and wherever else tooling up and down the hills and curves and no one is around I use the whole hwy meaning the 2 lanes on a divided interstate. and follow the apex to keep my momentum going everthing must be smooth minimal braking. if your abrupt and jerkey,over you go. wanna talk about brake fade? that's what those runaway ramps are for...lucky for me I never had to use one.....

My approach to HPDE is humble. Im excited to do this. I went back in June to an event at NJMP and caught the bug.Watched my buddy run his Honda civic Si....Sat in on all the drivers meetings and carefully watched ,walked around the entire track listened and learned all day. no driving no rides nothing.....that was rough but I was better off in the end soaking it in for 10 hours.
soooo now what? gotta get car right? sold the old Z 10yrs later bought an old MKII Supra which I thought I was gonna fix up and drive,never happened....sold that last week.
Pretty much decided that the S197 was the best bang for the buck.So I bought one.Picking it up this Saturday.
So heres what I was thinking....Keep it simple. this car is bone stock.Exactly what I wanted, no mods. I'll taylor it to my needs as I go along. I want to feel the car on the track. I don't want it to feel me into the tire wall. So I'm thinking... First few events . Ill throw on some Pads and rotors, bleed out the factory fluid (i'll bet its never been changed.)Replace it with some Motul or ATE and go have fun.then tires and suspension. I turn my own wrenches so sending it to a shop won't be often. I'm friendly with JDM Engineering in freehold,Nj and am about 20 mins away if I ever want to spend some $$$ on performance work.
would like to learn more about this Ford ABS service tool to cycle the ABS I'm not taking it to the dealer to bleed brakes.
Going with the brake duct prodject for sure....can work on that this winter. Gonna take it easy my first season.

Thanks again Gang I'm really glad to be here.

Intis, Ocean NJ
 

travelers

Senior Member
Joined
Apr 6, 2007
Posts
3,028
Reaction score
79
Location
Eastern Pa
I have to agree with ddd....


You might be a racer if:
1) You have a jungle-gym installed on the inside of the car.
2) You late-apex your driveway.
3) You heel/toe going into your garage.
4) The only wear on the brake pedal pad is on the right-side edge.
5) You throttle-steer on highway ramps, and usually at double to posted advisory speed limit.
6) You have to refrain from bump-drafting the guy ahead of you on the highway.

Now I do like this......:clap:
 

SoundGuyDave

This Space For Rent
Joined
Apr 9, 2007
Posts
1,978
Reaction score
27
Ok!!! Thanks a lot for all the replies and advise. here is a little info on me so you guys know what your dealing with.
Road course experience. zip. unless some Auto x in my old 240Z 20yrs ago counts. Learned a lot back then. Under steering, knocking cones all over the place.had fun and got better after every run.
I'm a professional Tractor Trailer Tanker Driver by trade.for 27yrs now. So the motor skills are there and you certainly must know and understand speed ,brake control proper entry and exits to curves especially when you have 20 tons of liquid moving around at 65mph....gotta keep those turns flat. when im in WV and wherever else tooling up and down the hills and curves and no one is around I use the whole hwy meaning the 2 lanes on a divided interstate. and follow the apex to keep my momentum going everthing must be smooth minimal braking. if your abrupt and jerkey,over you go. wanna talk about brake fade? that's what those runaway ramps are for...lucky for me I never had to use one.....

My approach to HPDE is humble. Im excited to do this. I went back in June to an event at NJMP and caught the bug.Watched my buddy run his Honda civic Si....Sat in on all the drivers meetings and carefully watched ,walked around the entire track listened and learned all day. no driving no rides nothing.....that was rough but I was better off in the end soaking it in for 10 hours.
soooo now what? gotta get car right? sold the old Z 10yrs later bought an old MKII Supra which I thought I was gonna fix up and drive,never happened....sold that last week.
Pretty much decided that the S197 was the best bang for the buck.So I bought one.Picking it up this Saturday.
So heres what I was thinking....Keep it simple. this car is bone stock.Exactly what I wanted, no mods. I'll taylor it to my needs as I go along. I want to feel the car on the track. I don't want it to feel me into the tire wall. So I'm thinking... First few events . Ill throw on some Pads and rotors, bleed out the factory fluid (i'll bet its never been changed.)Replace it with some Motul or ATE and go have fun.then tires and suspension. I turn my own wrenches so sending it to a shop won't be often. I'm friendly with JDM Engineering in freehold,Nj and am about 20 mins away if I ever want to spend some $$$ on performance work.
would like to learn more about this Ford ABS service tool to cycle the ABS I'm not taking it to the dealer to bleed brakes.
Going with the brake duct prodject for sure....can work on that this winter. Gonna take it easy my first season.

Thanks again Gang I'm really glad to be here.

Intis, Ocean NJ

Well, then! Welcome to your new addiction!

The S197 chassis has a LOT of strengths, and onyl a few weaknesses, and the stock non-Brembo brakes are #1 on my list. I think your plan of swapping pads, and rotors, and going to a DOT 4 fluid is a good one. Side note: The Snap-On Solus OBD-II tool has a list price of $3895... If you're swapping over to DOT 4, I would pay the Stealership ONCE to do the full-monty flush with the service tool to get you moved over. After that, typical bleeds/flushes by yourself will be no issue, since the whole system will be filled with DOT 4 anyway. At least, that's the way I did it. You can try the "gravel road" trick if you have a pathological dislike of dealerships, but I suspect it won't be 100% effective.

The next biggest weakness is in the front suspension geometry. Massive camber-gain with bump travel means you want a -2.5* static alignment, minimum, if you're tracking frequently. With a good set of camber-caster plates (I use Maximum Motorsports, but there are others out there), you can mark the strut tower and easily go back and forth between "race" and "street" alignments without having to re-align the thing every time. Note: If you set your street alignment to either 0 toe, or 1/16" in, you'll wind up with just a tick of toe-out after you dump the plates inboard. Good for turn-in.

Other than that, Kerry is dead-on for the basics. If I were building a dual-purpose car, I would throw good dampers (coilovers) and springs in the 500/200 range at the car, upgrade the brakes to 14" 4-pot GT500 Brembos, and haul a set of rims and tires (tyres if you're from OZ, NZ or UK), and swap the brakes out at the track. Oh, and add ducts to the fronts! That, right there, is the low-hanging fruit. Anything else is in the "diminshing returns" category. We could argue the priority order of his list, but in toto, it's all there, if made part of a comprehensive, experience-driven modification list.

Final note: If I were you, I would stick to plan, swap the fluid (NO dealer flush) pads and rotors, and go see if this really is as much fun as you think it is. WHEN (not if!) you're hooked, then when you do the Brembos, swap to a GT500 hydraulic controller (HCU) and the Boss302R ABS module at the same time, THEN pay the Stealership to do the hydraulic cycling.
 

Norm Peterson

corner barstool sitter
Joined
Feb 5, 2011
Posts
3,615
Reaction score
316
Location
RIP - You will be missed
Please don't try to twist words to alter the meaning?

The 2k cup I mentioned was just an example of a cheap FEEDER class.
The very same mods can be applied to a Mustang.
The point isn't whether those mods could be applied to an HPDE Mustang.

It's whether they should be applied to this Mustang right now.

For the purposes of this thread, it's entirely about most of them not being applicable for somebody whose whose next track driving experience will be something like three levels below "cheap feeder class" W2W racing.

Where there will be other people in the run group whose concept of "the line" is that yellow stripe down the middle of the road that they're supposed to stay on their side of, and for whom "good handling" means they don't need an entire acre of pavement to make a U-turn at more than 5 mph in.

I've been a passenger in a very trackable OE car where its owner had almost zero idea of "outside-inside-outside" and no grasp whatsoever of the notion that downshifting needs more engine revs (think clutch release in the lower gear that could almost be timed with a sundial instead). I'm being intentionally vague about who/what make car but I'm not making any of it up.


So an absolute stock car will be OK if the competition is exactly the same.
So the OP could leave his car alone if he really desired.
HPDE is not, I repeat NOT, competition. But I suppose you could assume that the amount of actual track time among drivers in a novice run group would be close enough to the same for all practical purposes.

Which brings me to the next point
It is a waste of time trying to develop driver technique if the front tyres are trying to "peel of the rims' well before the limit of adhesion.
Technique before speed. Learn how to do it right before trying to do it fast. This is probably one of the reasons some HPDE organizations frown on lap timing at least at the novice level.


That is why I recommend a competition wheel alignment as No 1.
You've got to remember that the primary use of this car is as a daily driver, that at best (at least for now) is destined to become a dual-purpose street-driver/track-toy with street driving remaining as the primary use. A performance street or mild competition alignment would be a good idea if the driver already understands what the benefits and downsides are . . . but perhaps more importantly if his street driving is on average hard enough to justify such an approach to alignment (most peoples' driving isn't).


Usually scuffs will go for about $50-$70 each. [it would be the cheapest gain the OP will ever get
Let's make the driver smarter before we make his car potentially faster, and let's not over-estimate how applicable what he's learned from the rest of his driving might be toward driving at speed on the track. It won't be comparable to your current level, certainly not Dave's, maybe not even mine (and I'm not in any big hurry to step up from MPSS tires).

OP's best initial gains are going to come from seat time at gradually increasing speeds/intensity. Not from equipment that he isn't ready for, that will cover for his driving errors - until they don't/can't.


Norm
 
Last edited:

Norm Peterson

corner barstool sitter
Joined
Feb 5, 2011
Posts
3,615
Reaction score
316
Location
RIP - You will be missed
here is a little info on me so you guys know what your dealing with.

My approach to HPDE is humble. Im excited to do this. I went back in June to an event at NJMP and caught the bug.Watched my buddy run his Honda civic Si....Sat in on all the drivers meetings and carefully watched ,walked around the entire track listened and learned all day. no driving no rides nothing.....that was rough but I was better off in the end soaking it in for 10 hours.
Welcome aboard.

NJMP is only an hour away from me, so it's more or less my 'home track'. So I'm curious about which course your buddy was running on that day and what his impressions were. For those not familiar with NJMP, it's the state of NJ that doesn't permit passengers in a car on track unless one of them is an instructor or perhaps under some conditions for lead-follow parade laps at highway speed.

I don't know whose event it was that you were at, but I wonder if you might have been able to buy a ride with an instructor right there on the spot.


As an experience-based datapoint, with track-suitable brakes (pads, fluid, perhaps cooling) assumed, it doesn't take all that much to turn an S197 into a composed HPDE track ride at least up into the 'advanced' and 'advanced & instructors' run groups (shocks & struts, more negative camber, sta-bars, wheels, tires, and maybe a little in the rear suspension for accuracy of axle location - removal of the transport tiedown brackets if you're running really wide stuff back there). And it's the track pads and maybe the cooling ducts that are the least streetable of the few things I have done to mine. Last time out I was still running the 'little' 12.4" fronts without a hint of fade (XP12/XP10 pads, RBF600 fluid).


Norm
 
Last edited:

Bad Horsie

Member
Joined
Jul 23, 2017
Posts
65
Reaction score
9
Location
Ocean NJ
My buddy ran thunderbolt on June 17th. This was the day he moved from Hyde 1 to 2.he said he thought the course was pretty good he had run on lighting before as well
I enjoyed watching the factory 5 car fly around the track that day . I'm sure you there .
Thanks again for the great advise.

Intis
 

Chriss_302

Junior Member
Joined
Jul 12, 2017
Posts
15
Reaction score
0
Location
Socal
Honestly, I would just swap fluid and pads then see what the car needs after it's first DE event.

I've been swapping out my brake fluid for the past couple years or so with a motive bleeder, nothing more. However, I did install rapid bleeder screws on the calipers, never had a problem with this method.

IMHO this should be on your list:

1. Fresh Fluids- dot 4
2. Pads
3. Ducts.

Also, this is the recommendation from Filip over at CorteX.
 

kerrynzl

forum member
Joined
May 31, 2017
Posts
116
Reaction score
19
Location
Tauranga, New Zealand
This thread has an unhealthy obsession for brake ducts.

you could simply use a more aggressive compound pad instead of fabricating ducting [or buying a $500 kit]

I get flamed over suggesting buying a set of scuffs , but nobody seems to get it!
The purpose of the 2nd set of wheels [and pads] is to protect the existing road going HP tyres by not flogging them out on the track.

A set of scuffs is usually cheaper than good high performance road tyres.

Also a pair of Offset camber bolts [adding 1.75 degree of adjustment ] is only $25 from Summit.
Or he could lower the car 2" and gain 2 degrees of negative camber [and use offset bolts to restore the camber to neg 0.25 when he drives it on the street]

From what the OP tells us about his truck driving skills.
He would probably get up to pace within a couple of sessions anyway.

He wants to keep his car stock..... well that is easy
Just unbolt the wheels and swap pads and drive it on the street
 

Norm Peterson

corner barstool sitter
Joined
Feb 5, 2011
Posts
3,615
Reaction score
316
Location
RIP - You will be missed
This thread has an unhealthy obsession for brake ducts.

you could simply use a more aggressive compound pad instead of fabricating ducting [or buying a $500 kit]
Ducts help everything, pads, rotors, calipers, brake fluid, wheel bearings. Better pads only helps the pads live, and at some expense to those other things because you're letting everything run hotter.


I get flamed over suggesting buying a set of scuffs , but nobody seems to get it!
The purpose of the 2nd set of wheels [and pads] is to protect the existing road going HP tyres by not flogging them out on the track.

A set of scuffs is usually cheaper than good high performance road tyres.
Nobody is picking on you over suggesting a second set of wheels & tires dedicated to track (or for that matter, autocross) duty.

What matters is the kind of tires you fit to that second set of wheels and how that choice can either help or hinder the development of somebody new to track driving. If the 'track tires' need to be inexpensive, look to street tire take-offs with enough tread depth to pass tech instead.


Crash bolts . . . let's not go there.


Norm
 
Last edited:

SoundGuyDave

This Space For Rent
Joined
Apr 9, 2007
Posts
1,978
Reaction score
27
This is turning into a real bench-racing session... First, let's differentiate between the initial topic of this thread, what a NEWBIE driver who is considering trying out this sport really needs to maximize enjoyment of his FIRST track experience, and what it has become (to some extent), how novice/intermediate level drivers can minimize costs while doing track events.

The NEWBIE needs a bare minimum expenditure prior to hitting the track, that won't leave him sidelined with failed parts, and the assumption is that the car is either stock, or loaded with shiny "go fast parts" from a catalog that may or may not work well together, or have ANYTHING to do with open-tracking the car. Say, like decorative caliper covers, or fart-can mufflers.

The NOVICE/INTERMEDIATE driver has a different set of needs, as addressed by most of Kerry's points. In the main, they're valid for this topic, if some of them are perhaps questionable from a safety/sanity viewpoint.

Really, though, this thread has come to center around two specific topics that are near and dear to the track enthusiast's heart: Tires and brakes.

Tires first. From my experience (HPDE ladder leading to Time Trials with three track records, and on to sprint and endurance racing with two track records, and a bunch of hardware on the shelf, instructing and group-leader roles, just to put that all out there) the easiest way to explain the differences between tire types is to evaluate them with a handful of characteristics and tendencies.

Street tires: Easy to warm up, WIDE range between minimum loading needed to maintain temp and breakaway, generally very predictable breakaway and recovery, extremely communicative in both audible and tactile means, with low to moderate ultimate grip capability (1.0-1.1G max). UTQG treadwear ratings above 180 or so, happiest with small slip angles, perhaps 4-6* Dunlop Direzza, Kumho, etc, from all-seasons to "extreme performance street tires."

DOT-R tires: Require a warm-up procedure, moderate range between minimum loading and breakaway, predictable breakaway and recovery, moderately communicative, moderate to good ultimate grip (1.2-1.4G max). UTQG below 100, usually around 40 for the "good stuff," happiest with larger slip angles up to around 8-9* or so. Hoosier R7, BFG R1, Toyo RR, etc. Should have uprated spring (and damper) rates to take advantage of them, but will work with stock stuff.

NON-DOT SLICKS: Treacherous until warmed up, very pressure sensitive, narrow range between minimum loading and breakaway, abrupt breakaway and potentially violent recovery, not overly communicative, but capable of insane levels of ultimate grip (1.5-1.7G max). UTQG? HAH!! Happy with large slip angles, past 10*. Pirelli P-Zero, Michelin, Hoosier Radial Slicks, etc. Sized with actual diameter, rather than section width. IE 285/645-18 is a 285 mm tread surface, 645mm diameter, and fits an 18" wheel. Needs uprated spring/damper rates, period.

In my opinion, changing tire types is not something that should be undertaken lightly. Each type has a learning curve associated with it. For NEWBIES, street tires are the answer. They have LOTS of experience driving on them, and probably have some "spirited" driving time on them as well, before arriving at their first track day. In other words, they already sort of know how they behave, and nothing they do will come as a real shock to them. DOT-R and Non-DOTs have a learning curve. First, you have to get them warmed up. An R7 you can just go out there and push them a bit (80%?) for the first lap, then they're up to temp and you're good to go. A P-Zero needs ginger warming up. They're dicey when cold, and they'll spin you in a heartbeat if you push them too hard when warming them up.

Now, let's look at the "scrub" topic. Yes, you can get a set of scrubs for relatively cheap, and the lower-level non-DOTs may actually be a DOT-R tire with a different name stamped on them (Continental Sports Car Challenge tires are made by Hoosier, and act like a long-wearing, ever-so-slightly "dead" R7), and usually run around $100 each. They're a pain to mount, and I've seen more than a couple destroyed by a mom-and-pop tire shop trying to force them without knowing the tricks. Best mounted by a motorsports-savvy shop. Depending on how worn they were when you got them (not just physical wear, but heat cycles as well), they may last one weekend, or they may last 3. Ulitmate grip from them will vary greatly from set to set, and from tire to tire. Assume they will last for three SOLID track days. $400 for the tires, $200 for the mount/balance (dubious), and you're into them for $600 a set, or $200 per day. A new set of "hot" street tires will cost around $1200 for the set, and around $100 to mount/balance (typical tire shop), and will last for at LEAST 8 track days, assuming you protect the outside edge with camber. That puts the per-day cost at $162.50, which is actually CHEAPER than the scrubs. Also, to really take advantage of the different tire types, you need a different suspension setup for each type. The amount of wheel rate and damping you need for a non-DOT is an order of magnitude more than you do with a hot street tire. More grip means more lateral load transfer, which means higher suspension loading, body roll, and all that goes with it. Monroe Sensatracs and "lowering springs" will NOT be up to the task, and you'll run around on the bump-stops, with predictably bad results.

Learn to walk before you can run. For 80% of the people who put a car on a track, the street tire is the right choice. Grippy enough to have fun, but not "weird" enough to get them in over their heads before they knew what hit them. The last 20% are the ones that can really make USE of the DOT-R and non-DOT slicks. If the typical progression is up the HPDE ladder, into Time Trials, then on to club racing, stay on the street tires as long as you can, and learn how to get every single ERG of grip out of them. Once you have mastered the tires, and maybe fixed one or two chassis shortcomings along the way (don't do too much!), you should have progressed to the "top" of the HPDE ladder. If you so choose, you can then play around with DOT-R tires and pick up additional grip and speed. To this point, though, you simply CANNOT "win" HPDE, except by bringing your car home every time in nice straight, shiny condition. If you're considering Time Trials, THIS is the time to pick a class, and then "build" your car to the letter of the rules, and rule #1 is that tire compound is king. The R7/A7 is the gold standard here, as you focus on the one perfect lap before traffic becomes an issue. While a non-DOT may ultimately be a faster tire, by the time you get it up to temp, you'll be mired in traffic and won't get that clean, fast lap. If you decide to start club racing, though, the same advice on tires applies. Pick your class, then build to the limit, and here is where the non-DOT shines, assuming your class allows it. Yes, it may take a couple laps to come in, but in a 30-45 minute sprint race, you'll have MANY laps run, and will more than make up the initial deficit with the increased ultimate grip over the longer run.

If you're not in a competitive class, though, or aren't right at the point of going for that license, then stick with street tires until you have them absolutely mastered.
 

SoundGuyDave

This Space For Rent
Joined
Apr 9, 2007
Posts
1,978
Reaction score
27
Now, let's talk about brakes... We all know (or should), that brakes do NOT stop the car, the tires do. The brakes, though, are what slow the rotation of the tire to help STOP the car. They do this by converting rotational energy into thermal energy (heat), through friction between the brake pad and the brake rotor in EVERY disc brake system. One piston, two pistons, or twelve pistons, it's still the friction generated by the brake pad being pushed against the rotor that does the work. Ask yourself, where does all this heat go? On a stock car (specifically a stock S197) that heat in the rotor is dissipated by the veins in the center of the rotor disc as well as the surface area of the faces of the rotor, into the air surrounding them in the wheelwell. The brake pad material itself is an excellent insulator, but some will still bleed through the pad, into the caliper, and from there into your fluid. In addition, some of the heat from the rotor will also bleed into the hubs and wheel bearings. None of that stuff really likes heat, to be honest. You can increase the heat capacity of the SYSTEM by increasing the rotor mass, which provides a larger heat sink to store that heat. So, what happens if you "overheat" your brakes, as you are likely to do at a track day unless precautions are taken? The first thing to go is the binding agents in the stock brake pad material. This causes the pad itself to disintegrate, and break off in chunks from the backing plate, if the pad material is reasonably thick, and what is left over will actually melt and "glaze." The previously "rough, grippy" surface of the pad material is now "smooth, slippery," and does a piss-poor job of generating friction with the rotor. Good news is that the heat issue isn't going to get worse. Bad news is that your brakes are hard as a rock, but not stopping the car. This is commonly called "pad fade."

If the pad material thickness is small, like 50% (or more) worn pads, before the pads can glaze, the heat will transfer in sufficient quantity through the pad material, into the steel backing plate, into the piston and caliper body, and into the brake fluid itself. Stock brake fluid (when fresh) boils around 375*, and that number goes down with age, as the fluid absorbs moisture. When you boil your fluid, you create steam bubbles in it, and as we know, steam is compressible, while the fluid is not. This will give you a "spongy" feeling pedal, and the car will NOT slow comfortably. Backing off on the brakes will allow the steam to re-condense and give you your pedal back, but it'll never come all the way back without being bled. This is what is happening when people say "I had brake fade."

Why don't we see these types of problems on the street? Simple. The brake system is engineered to allow heavy braking (panic stop) from 80mph to zero without fade. Once. What we knuckleheads do out on track, though, is REPEATED panic-stops for 15-20 minutes. In that time we are FAR exceeding the thermal capacity of the rotor, and will have to deal with the consequences of having generated all that heat. We're cooking our wheel bearings, glazing our pads, and boiling our fluid, once we get enough pace on track. How do we combat that? There's a couple of ways this is done, and they are complimentary, not an either/or. Increase the temp capability of the pad material. This means we can run the whole system hotter without getting the pads to crumble or glaze. Going to a mild race pad (Hawk HT-10 for example) takes the heat capability of the pad from the stock ~600*F to well past 800*F when measured right at the point of friction. Race pads use a different compound and binding agent than the stock stuff, but tend to be more abrasive to the rotor (shorter lifespan), and tend to dust and squeal horribly compared to stock stuff. Personally, I'd rather have dusty wheels and squealing brakes than put my car off-track and possibly into a wall. I've done that, and it hurts. At the same time, you know you're still going to be putting a lot of heat into the other components surrounding the rotor, most notably the fluid itself. Converting from the stock-type DOT-3 with a 375* boiling point to a DOT-4 "race" fluid, like Motul RBF-600, or the equivalent bumps your boiling point up to 595*F, which will take care of the fluid boiling. At this point, with pads and fluids, you've significantly increased the heat RESISTANCE of the critical components. HOWEVER, with the overfed pigs that we drive, and I've seen "loaded" GT's push over 3800lbs, we will still generate a HUGE amount of heat, particularly over a longer 25+ minute session, and it may well be more than the entry-level pads and good fluid can withstand. What then?

The next thing you can do is to increase the capacity of the heat sink itself by increasing rotor size. Converting from the PBR 2-piston caliper and 12.4" rotor up to the Brembo 4-piston caliper and 14" rotors does this nicely, and relatively affordably. With the larger diameter, there is a LOT more thermal capacity in this braking system than there is in the stock GT PBR setup. So, now, you've got a larger heat sink, high-temp pads, and high-temp fluids. Then you do something dumb, like bolt on some DOT-R tires, and discover that you are now even FASTER at the end of each straight, which means, you guessed it, longer/harder braking zones and even more heat generated...

Somewhere in here, you may have twigged to an interesting idea. IN ADDITION TO the above, what if we made the heat sink more efficient? First, you can pull the backing plates behind the rotor off and throw them in the garbage. They block airflow to the backside of the rotor, and cut your effective cooling surface area by around 25% (ish). This helps with the passive radiation of heat into the air. The rotors, though, still depend on the convective motion of air through the vanes to do the bulk of the cooling. What if we were to blow air into the center of the rotor? Instead of slow, low-volume air in there, what if we force-fed it a whole bunch of nice, cool air? Enter the brake duct. Virtually any sort of inlet in the front fascia of the car will do the trick to jam a bunch of high-pressure cool air into a hose (3"-4" diameter) which connects to a bracket aiming the airflow at the center of the rotor. The faster you go, the more air gets forced through the rotor, and the more efficient your cooling. With ducts, Brembos, Motul fluids and VERY high temp brake pads (operating range tops out at 1600*F!!), I have run a 4.5 hour endurance race on a 3400lb S197 without any form of brake fade. With a collapsed duct, my old 3000lb CMC car suffered catastrophic fluid boiling in less than seven laps, or roughly 12 minutes into a race. That was with a PBR brake setup functionally identical to the stock S197 GT 2-piston setup. Ducts accelerate the rate of heat loss from the rotor dramatically, and are applicable to ANY of the S197 braking systems. With the lighter weight, lower horsepower momentum cars, like a Miata or Porsche 944, they're not nearly as critical, if even necessary. The cars don't generate the terminal velocity entering the braking zone that a Mustang does, and consequently generate less brake heat. They're considerably lighter than a Mustang, and consequently generate less brake heat. Getting the picture?

As I've mentioned previously, I've had more than a couple students trying to find brake pads on a Sunday afternoon, rather than doing their on-track sessions because they burned through the stock stuff before the weekend was out. I can't tell you how many people I've taught how to bleed brakes in the paddock from sheer necessity because they had old, heavily contaminated brake fluid with compromised boiling point.

One other factor to note: Race brake pads have a minimum operating temp as well. Stock pads are designed for use (generally) from ambient (including sub-zero up here in the midwest) up through around 600*, where their performance falls off like a rock, and they glaze at around 700*. The DTC-60's that I run, in comparison, need around 450* in them before they even start to work properly, and are fantastic up to 1600*F, and won't glaze until around 2000-2100*F. Just like race tires, race brakes need heat to work properly. An "entry level" race pad, though, like the HT-10, is good from around 300* up to around 1200*F, making it a respectable pad to use for a track day in a non-competition environment. I know the Hawk line better than I do the Carbotech, so I'm using them as examples. I don't sell them, am not an endorser, batteries not included, some assembly required, etc.

The bottom line is that ducts will make ANY braking system capable of absorbing more heat over a given period of time, as it allows the system to dissipate that heat more quickly. It can even make the stock stuff last longer, as long as you don't spike the heat past the glazing point, which is unfortunately fairly easy to do trying to whoa-up from 130mph or so down to 40 to make a corner.

Oh, and cool brakes last longer, so it's a sensible move to help reduce consumables expense.
 

kerrynzl

forum member
Joined
May 31, 2017
Posts
116
Reaction score
19
Location
Tauranga, New Zealand
Dave,

I've used aggressive pads before [Performance Friction Carbon Metallic 83 Compound] that would take up to 6-7 laps to properly heat up.
So on short sprints I would block off any ducting, or change to softer pads.

Now we need to face a reality here......Motorsport is slowly going the way of the Dodo bird.
We need to encourage new blood into the sport THE CHEAPEST WAY POSSIBLE.
Most new blood want to just "test the waters" so it is best to recommend modifications that can be undone [and later removed and sold if needed]

Over the years I've met plenty of wannabes and "hangers on" that seem to be hell bent on using "trick parts" and "pet modifications" that some salesman has told them they need.

I prefer to use good engineering,mathematics and correct knowledge instead of "romancing" my cars with crap.

On a side note: I've also seen first time drivers go out on the track in full completion vehicles [usually with some coaching]
So Race tyres are NOT a handicap for a novice, and scuffs are usually cheaper than good road tyres.

A spare set of 17 x 8 S197 wheels with some 245/40 x 17 scuffs that a BMW racer has throw out of his toybox would be cheap.

"Cheap" is the reason I recommended them.
 

Norm Peterson

corner barstool sitter
Joined
Feb 5, 2011
Posts
3,615
Reaction score
316
Location
RIP - You will be missed
Now we need to face a reality here......Motorsport is slowly going the way of the Dodo bird.
We need to encourage new blood into the sport THE CHEAPEST WAY POSSIBLE.
Most new blood want to just "test the waters" so it is best to recommend modifications that can be undone [and later removed and sold if needed]

Over the years I've met plenty of wannabes and "hangers on" that seem to be hell bent on using "trick parts" and "pet modifications" that some salesman has told them they need.

I prefer to use good engineering,mathematics and correct knowledge instead of "romancing" my cars with crap.
As a retired engineer, I can tell you that having an engineering outlook certainly helps - for those drivers who have that mental tool at their disposal. But not everybody has that, or the patience to just drive the car moderately hard as-is and let it start telling them what it needs. Or has the [big enough] budget to just keep trying stuff, like some folks do with exhaust systems.

I had a whole list of things I thought I'd end up swapping to on my '08 even before I bought the car - other than the mild FRPP tune and intake everything was aimed at giving the car somewhat improved cornering potential and to make it drive the way I wanted it to on the street. So when I finally did get the car (with the tune dealer-installed as much for warranty reasons as anything) I did a little tire pressure tuning . . . and absolutely nothing else for over a year. Nine years and change later, I still haven't put everything that was on the original list on the car, the things actually installed so far have not all matched - either mfr for mfr or spec for spec - what was on that list, and there's been a second wheel & tire mod plus some DIY tweaking along the way that wasn't ever on the list at all.


On a side note: I've also seen first time drivers go out on the track in full completion vehicles [usually with some coaching]
So Race tyres are NOT a handicap for a novice, and scuffs are usually cheaper than good road tyres.
I'm going to guess from a finite but bare minimum amount of R-comp & race tire experience (in cars I'd never driven before) that those drivers came into their initial R-comp/race tire drives with a good bit more experience under their belts driving street tires up near their limits than the average driver gives himself in a lifetime. And better grasp of "the line" as a concept. Not being a significant handicap for some newbie track entrants doesn't mean it won't be a clear handicap/stumbling block to learning for others.


Norm
 
Last edited:

SoundGuyDave

This Space For Rent
Joined
Apr 9, 2007
Posts
1,978
Reaction score
27
Dave,

I've used aggressive pads before [Performance Friction Carbon Metallic 83 Compound] that would take up to 6-7 laps to properly heat up.
So on short sprints I would block off any ducting, or change to softer pads.

Brakes: What car were you running the PFC83's on??? That is a SERIOUS compound, designed around high initial bite and VERY high temps for high-grip downforce cars. If you had that on a small saloon or a hot hatch, I could see where you weren't getting enough heat into them. At the end of the day, pad selection is all about matching working temp range to the actual application (engineering mindset). Something like a Hawk HT-10 which comes in at a fairly low 250-300* but can go as high as 800 before falling off, is a good starter compromise pad. Newbies will have NO problem getting the brakes up to 250* (3800lbs from 90-40?) in the first corner or two, but would have to beat on the car pretty hard to get up to 800* ON STREET TIRES. With the relatively low grip from the tires, they won't get the run off the corner to get a high enough terminal velocity to really tax the race brakes. A full race pad, like the PFC83, PFC01, or Hawk DTC-60, needs 400*+ to start coming in, which may be tough to generate at that sort of pace. No way do they NEED a pad that can survive 1600*F! You are absolutely correct in that ducting CAN (stress this: CAN) over-cool the brakes and pull them below minimum temp, but this is a fairly rare occurrence. If you engineer the braking package (stress this: package) properly, you should be sitting somewhere in the middle of the pad's temp range under "normal" conditions. If done right, the LONG straight won't be enough to drop the rotor temps below minimums, and tucking in for a nose-tail chase for a couple of laps (poor duct airflow) won't push the temps past the maximums. Without the ducts, though, and we're talking full-chat race cars here, you'll be gaining heat in the brakes faster than you can shed it, and will eventually over-temp the system. To combat that, you could go to an even higher-temp fluid (Motul RBF-660, for example) and even higher-temp pads, but why bother with the increased consumables cost when you can just add airflow?

Stock pads work well from ambient to around 550-600*F. Keep the temps down, particularly towards the lower end, and the pads will be fine. Let the temps creep up towards max, and the pads wear at an alarming rate, and eventually fall off the cliff. You can manage the heat with airflow, but for a Newbie, ripping the brakes all the way down to add ducts, including modifying the front end of the car for the inlets isn't a particularly appetizing solution for a "maybe this will be fun" experience. Hardware alone will be about the same cost as entry-level race pads. If they LIKE the sport, and commit to running their car, then yes, by all means start with some ducts! You can run the entire braking package at a lower temp, which is easier on the hardware and has cheaper consumable costs. When pace gets up to where you're overwhelming some portion of the brake package even with ducts, then address the root cause. It may just take a compound change to a higher temp pad/fluid, or you may need to increase the mass of the rotor to provide a larger heat sink. Either way, it's easier and cheaper to add the ducting early in the process, as a $500 duct kit (and that's on the high side) is still a lot cheaper than a $1200 GT500 Brembo kit. Remember, we're driving heavy pigs, and the amount of thermal energy generated to slow that mass down is substantial. Lose weight, and you lower the thermal uptake.


Now we need to face a reality here......Motorsport is slowly going the way of the Dodo bird.
We need to encourage new blood into the sport THE CHEAPEST WAY POSSIBLE.
Most new blood want to just "test the waters" so it is best to recommend modifications that can be undone [and later removed and sold if needed]
I think we're still talking at cross-points here. This thread is about what it takes to successfully get through a FIRST weekend on track, not about how to keep tracking on an affordable level. Before we can get them to come back, we need to get them there in the first place... Nothing on your list is cheaper than a set of mild race pads and fresh stock fluid. Assuming they want to come back, then I would still say ducts are the first mod to consider, as it will extend the life of their "expensive" pads, as well as keep the brakes WORKING for a longer portion of their development as a driver.

Over the years I've met plenty of wannabes and "hangers on" that seem to be hell bent on using "trick parts" and "pet modifications" that some salesman has told them they need.

I prefer to use good engineering,mathematics and correct knowledge instead of "romancing" my cars with crap.
You are preaching to the choir here, brother! I don't think anything I've recommended has ever been some sort of trick part. Do the MINIMUM necessary to the car to let it survive the weekend, and focus on learning to drive. Line, controls technique, situational awareness, chassis dynamics. Yes, the stock dampers suck. So what? Learn to drive them to the limit, and when you DO upgrade the dampers, you'll know how to get the most out of those, as well. Same goes with springs, tire grip levels, etc. Brakes, however, are NOT something you want to screw with. Until they have enough of a store of experience built up to know how to correct for overshooting braking points, the last thing we need to throw into the mix is pad or fluid fade. I've been in a student's car when the brakes "went out," and yes, panic did ensue. It was not fun for either of us. The newbie/novice drivers don't have the experiential background to identify when a pedal starts to get soft, or the brakes don't quite bite properly, as they are generally overwhelmed by all the other things going on, like flags flying, other cars zipping around, having a helmet on, or some instructor yakking away in their ear. Give them solid brakes, and it's one less thing to worry about, letting them focus on everything else.

On a side note: I've also seen first time drivers go out on the track in full completion vehicles [usually with some coaching]
So Race tyres are NOT a handicap for a novice, and scuffs are usually cheaper than good road tyres.
As have I, and I've also instructed in those cars as well. Generally, the "newbie" has been inculcated into the culture, and has a solid background in the bench racing, if nothing else. They've heard about all the stupidity/nonsense that can happen, and are already partially prepped for the experience. I'm thinking son/daughter/wife/husband here. Also, going out in a sorted and prepped car is a different animal altogether than driving your street car to the track, unloading the trunk junk, then pulling onto grid. I can say, from experience, that the basics, like line and technique are no different to instruct in a street car or fully-prepped race car, however when getting a little more advanced, the feedback from street tires (particularly CHEAP, shitty all-seasons!!) really does help with the association between what's happening at the contact patch and what the driver is feeling inside the cockpit. There a DOT-R is a hindrance to the learning curve. Full slicks? Forget about it. I've seen more than one "newbie in a race car" loop the thing just pulling off pit lane. Keep in mind that the "envelope" between "warmed up" and "overheated" narrows drastically with slicks. The P-Zero DH slicks have a max operating temp of 230*F, but the performance envelope is ONLY 50* wide. This is why you need to drive them hard just to get them to grip, and that's not a good recipe for a newbie or novice driver.

A spare set of 17 x 8 S197 wheels with some 245/40 x 17 scuffs that a BMW racer has throw out of his toybox would be cheap.

"Cheap" is the reason I recommended them.
17x8's won't clear the GT500 Brembo calipers, never mind the 15" Performance Pack brake package. That said, I get where you're coming from. For a driver who has started to be able to CONSISTENTLY push their street tires to the limit, and hold them there, yes, this would be a sensible idea. For somebody that is still trying to sort out when and how to get on the brake pedal, not so much.

Short form: Do as LITTLE as possible to the car, not only initially, but throughout your development as a driver. The more "race parts" you have on the car, the harder it is on all of the hardware, the more finicky it is to drive, and the more dependent you become on the hardware, rather than your native ability. Something like an "auto-blip" is a perfect example. If you have one and rely on it, you can't heel/toe (or will be rusty as hell). Swap to a different car, and you will be at a disadvantage without it. When it comes time to do mods, identify what the chassis issues are ("understeer at corner entry" for example), research the causes and remedies, then buy and install ONLY what is needed to cure that problem. Continue your development until the next thing hampers your development, and fix that. Lather, rinse, repeat. NOTE: You will not suddenly become a chassis development engineer, nor a test-driver after your first weekend. What you think is oversteer on exit, requiring new rear LCAs, relocation brackets, and a Watts link, might just be you hammering the gas pedal rather than squeezing it... ;-)
 

kerrynzl

forum member
Joined
May 31, 2017
Posts
116
Reaction score
19
Location
Tauranga, New Zealand
Brakes: What car were you running the PFC83's on??? That is a SERIOUS compound, designed around high initial bite and VERY high temps for high-grip downforce cars. If you had that on a small saloon or a hot hatch, ;-)

The car was a Vintage Road Racer. A 1970 Big Block Corvette Roadster, that was a correct "Schedule K Historic"

It only weighed 1170kg [2574 lbs] and had a ton of torque from a 482" engine.

In NZ we have a track called "Pukekohe" that had a long straightaway that turned into a hairpin corner.
We'd crank the ol'girl up to a calibrated 276kph [approx. 170mph] and brake at 190 metres for a 70kph corner.
The '83 pads really were a necessity for that place

It wasn't the place to practice late braking manoeuvres.

Unfortunately the Aussie V8 Supercars wanted to race on that track ,so they added a chicane [at the 190m mark] to slow down the terminal speeds.
A real shame because a lot of history was lost.

attached is a couple of photos of my "mistress" [ you know , those high maintenance things that only give you a few moments of pleasure :Big Laugh: ]
 

Attachments

  • Corvette at Taupo.JPG
    Corvette at Taupo.JPG
    34 KB · Views: 8
  • DSCN0432.JPG
    DSCN0432.JPG
    485.8 KB · Views: 9
  • DSCN0433.JPG
    DSCN0433.JPG
    456.4 KB · Views: 9

SoundGuyDave

This Space For Rent
Joined
Apr 9, 2007
Posts
1,978
Reaction score
27
attached is a couple of photos of my "mistress" [ you know , those high maintenance things that only give you a few moments of pleasure :Big Laugh: ]


VERY sexy, nice curves!! "Here's to wives, and here's to mistresses. May they never meet!"

Bonus points to anyone that can identify the ORIGINAL source of that quote!
 

Bad Horsie

Member
Joined
Jul 23, 2017
Posts
65
Reaction score
9
Location
Ocean NJ
Ok gang....Got the car. Tight as a drum runs and drives great...Has Cooper Zeon RS3's which are quite amazing for what they are. thoughI am getting some harmonic like vibration at around 65-70... past experiences in other cars with the two piece Dr's lead me to the center bearing. The brake rotors were a bit off when I first picked up the car due to some rust from sitting at the dealer but clear ed up after a few hundred miles.....will start with new brakes,Fluid and tire balance and go from there.If it is indeed the drive shaft, I'll bite the bullet and replace it with an aluminum one piece this winter
I'm signed up for HPDE 1 at Thunderbolt NJMP on Sat Oct 14th #52. Vista Blue. If anyone is around stop by and say Hi. Just doing one day. Then again at the Lighting in Nov.
 

Pentalab

forum member
Joined
Mar 5, 2013
Posts
5,211
Reaction score
1,093
What about Wilwood 570 for brake fluid. It's rated at 572 deg F....and is DOT-3.
It's < $10.00 for a 12 oz container from summit . If it's all it's cracked up to be, that makes it the highest temp rated DOT-3 brake fluid out there. I think the wet point on wilwood 570 is lower than ate-200...so it may come out a wash. I have zero experience with 570, and don't know anybody locally who uses it, it might be another option.
 
Last edited:

Support us!

Support Us - Become A Supporting Member Today!

Click Here For Details

Sponsor Links

Banner image
Back
Top