First Autocross in an S197

740weapon

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to resolve understeer, the first step is to fix the front tire contact patch during cornering. This means camber bolts, camber plates, and/or slotting some bolt holes on the strut.

Also, tire pressure. I run 42F 35R on 275 35 R18 Rival S on 18x10.5 rims.

Might I recommend some tires appropriate for autocross. Probably you have to spend over $1000 on them.

After that, my opinion on understeer is to just "deal with it"

For reference I run a stock GT suspension on a 2012 V6 with front camber and can be the fastest street tire mustang of the day from time to time and there are 3 of us showing up pretty regularly with cars and talent appropriate for the sport.
 

Thenorm

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odd question,
but is your front bar freely turning, or bound up?
 

Norm Peterson

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So yesterday I took my new to me 2008 Bullitt to an autocross. The car did better than I expected. Sadly it did have lots of body roll, excessive brake dive and a lot of understeer. On the street+canyons, the car understeers like a pig, and it also understeers on an autocross course. But the car was very comfortable with countering said understeer with throttle oversteer, so I was able to keep the car pretty neutral while on course. The car was a handful and made me work hard, but ended up being very fun and decently fast.
Still unknown is how much camber you're running, but "lots of body roll" will drag whatever it is toward and probably well into 'positive' for that important outside front tire. If your camber is anywhere "in the green" on anybody's alignment rack, it's not nearly negative enough for autocrossing without understeer raising its ugly head. Compensating with the throttle can reduce the understeer, at some cost of stability (note that forward acceleration does tend to unweight the front end, which would be an understeerish effect in and of itself).

Brake dive is (mostly) springs, body roll is (mostly) springs and bars together.

Understeer can be driver-induced as well; it's not just a matter of setup. Continuing to add steering once the front is already running wide in the hope that you can drag it back on line is one example, steering inputs that are too fast combined with still doing some braking could be another.


Norm
 
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Goose428

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Thank you all for the replies. I am at a bit of a stalemate here. My tires are totally junk, the more I drive the car, the more frustrated I get with the lack of grip from the front end. So I have decided to go with new tires first. BUT THEN, I realized that the stock Bullitt's are only 8 inch wheels, so the max I could go on the tire would be about 255, and even that is pushing it. And I can't spend more for 17x10 or 17x11 wheels.

Anyone care to comment on how wide I can go on my stock wheels, and still have the car "handle" decently? I know the "grip" will obviously go up if I switch to a sticky 255, but I am worried that the handling will become much worse due to the extra bulge. And more importantly, would it be worth my time to get a nice sticky tire if I can only get it in 255 size?

Also I think I have decided that I don't want to mess with piecing together suspension parts. It seems like the best way to go is to spend $1,500 or more on one of the suspension "kits", like the Ford Racing, Vorchslag, Maximum Motorsports, etc. Am I right in assuming this?

Also anyone have good tire recommendations for under $1k?

Thanks guys, and can I just say, this is honestly the best forum I have come across for ANYTHING. Heck, some of you sound like engineers the way you explain this stuff :)
 
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Speedboosted

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Thank you all for the replies. I am at a bit of a stalemate here. My tires are totally junk, the more I drive the car, the more frustrated I get with the lack of grip from the front end. So I have decided to go with new tires first. BUT THEN, I realized that the stock Bullitt's are only 8 inch wheels, so the max I could go on the tire would be about 255, and even that is pushing it. And I can't spend more for 17x10 or 17x11 wheels.

Anyone care to comment on how wide I can go on my stock wheels, and still have the car "handle" decently? I know the "grip" will obviously go up if I switch to a sticky 255, but I am worried that the handling will become much worse due to the extra bulge. And more importantly, would it be worth my time to get a nice sticky tire if I can only get it in 255 size?

Also I think I have decided that I don't want to mess with piecing together suspension parts. It seems like the best way to go is to spend $1,500 or more on one of the suspension "kits", like the Ford Racing, Vorchslag, Maximum Motorsports, etc. Am I right in assuming this?

Also anyone have good tire recommendations for under $1k?

Thanks guys, and can I just say, this is honestly the best forum I have come across for ANYTHING. Heck, some of you sound like engineers the way you explain this stuff :)

What do 245/45/18 MPSS tires cost? That would be the size and tire I would run on a 8" wheel. I didn't read everything, are you on stock Bullitt Wheels, like the special edition cars? If so, those are 8.5" wide and a 255/45/18 is perfect.

Oh, and there's no "c" in Vorshlag :)
 
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Norm Peterson

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Thank you all for the replies. I am at a bit of a stalemate here. My tires are totally junk, the more I drive the car, the more frustrated I get with the lack of grip from the front end. So I have decided to go with new tires first. BUT THEN, I realized that the stock Bullitt's are only 8 inch wheels, so the max I could go on the tire would be about 255, and even that is pushing it. And I can't spend more for 17x10 or 17x11 wheels.
Are you trying too hard [to cover for tires that are past their prime]? Maybe dial the urgency back a notch or two.

Almost certainly, the amount of camber you're currently running isn't nearly negative enough for autocross. Or for most any cornering-heavy activity. This can be fixed to a lesser or greater extent depending on whether you'll ever run in a class that places limits on what's allowed.

For 2008, Mustang GT wheel sizes were 17 x 8 or 18 x 8.5. After some later year, the 18's went down to 18 x 8. It is a bit confusing.

Speed does cost money . . .


Anyone care to comment on how wide I can go on my stock wheels, and still have the car "handle" decently? I know the "grip" will obviously go up if I switch to a sticky 255, but I am worried that the handling will become much worse due to the extra bulge. And more importantly, would it be worth my time to get a nice sticky tire if I can only get it in 255 size?
No matter how you slice it, 8.5" wide wheels are going to force compromises that are more limiting. Ultimate grip by itself, and also grip vs response and precision, for starters.

If there's any chance of autocross leading to HPDE and track day driving, when you do get around to getting wider wheels, confine your wheel search to wheels in 18" or at most 19" that clear the 4-piston Brembo/GT500 brakes (not all do, it's a spoke clearance thing). You'll thank me later.


Also I think I have decided that I don't want to mess with piecing together suspension parts. It seems like the best way to go is to spend $1,500 or more on one of the suspension "kits", like the Ford Racing, Vorchslag, Maximum Motorsports, etc. Am I right in assuming this?
You may assume that most any "kit" will be a step up from your OE, which still had to put more weight on daily driving characteristics than you'd need (or necessarily want) in a car used in competition. That said, you want to have some adjustability so that you can dial-in the kit to better fit your own driving preferences. As in at least adjustable front and rear sta-bars. As examples, some drivers like a more tail-happy car than others, your own handling preferences might change with more experience, and after driving around and competing on some kit for a while you might not call it a "one and done" solution anyway.

Vorshlag, Sam Strano, and probably Maximum Motorsports are a whole lot more willing to work with you to fit something to you than Ford Racing. If for no other reason than the availability of an adjustable rear bar where with Ford Racing you get a rear bar where somebody's "one size fits all" thinking ruled. This isn't to say that FRPP parts are somehow substandard in quality, but you'd be giving up the ability to use a rear bar adjustment to solve a handling balance issue.

I suppose that anybody who has pieced together their own combination of parts - and with autocross or track time found the result to be better than just "satisfactory" - could call that collection of parts a "kit". FWIW.


Thanks guys, and can I just say, this is honestly the best forum I have come across for ANYTHING. Heck, some of you sound like engineers the way you explain this stuff :)
Some of us are. Or used to be, anyway .
picture.php



Norm
 
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Boone

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Tires are the most simple way to add bite to your car, but what happens to your nice new tires when pushed with the poor suspension geometry we're saddled with on the S197? They will be trashed quickly because you can't dial enough camber into the front end.

I think you're on the right track to pick a company to partner with (any you mention are great choices) and improve your suspension. This will improve the performance of the tires you have, and once they are trashed, it will improve the wear of whatever tire you select in the future.

You're saddled with 8" rims. You can go small and sticky, but you're tire budget will suffer if you daily the car. I'd recommend saving up after the suspension mods to make the leap to at least 10" wheels and swap your tires and rims when you want to go play.
 

Goose428

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Thank you for all the replies.

I am on stock Bullitt special edition wheels. The car currently has brand new 235/45/18 Pirelli P Zero Neros. The fact that they are brand new is why I don't want to change them, but I am worried that if I spend money on suspension and keep these P Zero Nero's on the car, I will still have the same or perhaps slightly more grip.

To be completely honest, the only reason I was considering the Ford Racing kit is because I feel it would increase resale value of the car (if I ever do want to sell it) when compared to Maximum Motorsports or Vorshlag. And it's kinda cool to say that your car has "Ford Racing Suspension" Yeah, I know I know, kinda pathetic :/

I have been talking with Jack Hidley at Maximum Motorsports, and he was the one that brought up the point about getting new, wider wheels. So far he has recommended that I get a sway bar kit from them (the adjustable one) and their CC plates. And I was ready to pull the trigger (I literally had my credit card info in the website), but had to drive the car somewhere, and came back from the drive extremely disappointed in the tires. The car hits it's limit of grip so much sooner than I would like, and I am worried that suspension won't be able to fix this given the bad tires. But then I tell myself that better suspension will be able to "utilize" more of the tire and so on, but I still just don't know what to do.

I am pretty positive the car is running stock, O.E. recommended camber. The reason I am not super keen on getting just an alignment is it has never helped that much on some of my other cars. Or rather wasn't really worth the price that I paid for the gain that I received. I'm sure caster camber plates+alignment will help a ton (because a stock mustang with no CC plates is such a horrible starting point), but again, I feel my starting point is at rock bottom due to the terrible tires.
 
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I have been autocrossing my 2008 Mustang GT in F-Street for about 7 years. You can make it handle really nice without spending a lot of money. You can run a 255 tire on 17x8 wheels and 265 tire on 18x8.5 wheels. Some people will tell to run smaller tires, but I haven't had any issues.

If you're looking to save money, go with the 17" wheels. The smaller rims will lower the car and help with the gearing coming out of the slow turns. It will hurt the top end speed in second gear, but our region uses smaller lots and hasn't been an issue.

After tires/rims I would purchase an adjustable rear sway bar from Sam Strano. It doesn't cost that much and you will feel a big change in the handling of the car.

After the sway bar, go with a set of Koni Sport shocks and buy a set of Ford crash bolts. The crash bolts will let you legally slot the front struts and get about -1.5 to -2 camber.
 

kcbrown

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Thank you for all the replies.

I am on stock Bullitt special edition wheels. The car currently has brand new 235/45/18 Pirelli P Zero Neros. The fact that they are brand new is why I don't want to change them, but I am worried that if I spend money on suspension and keep these P Zero Nero's on the car, I will still have the same or perhaps slightly more grip.

To be completely honest, the only reason I was considering the Ford Racing kit is because I feel it would increase resale value of the car (if I ever do want to sell it) when compared to Maximum Motorsports or Vorshlag. And it's kinda cool to say that your car has "Ford Racing Suspension" Yeah, I know I know, kinda pathetic :/

I have been talking with Jack Hidley at Maximum Motorsports, and he was the one that brought up the point about getting new, wider wheels. So far he has recommended that I get a sway bar kit from them (the adjustable one) and their CC plates. And I was ready to pull the trigger (I literally had my credit card info in the website), but had to drive the car somewhere, and came back from the drive extremely disappointed in the tires. The car hits it's limit of grip so much sooner than I would like, and I am worried that suspension won't be able to fix this given the bad tires. But then I tell myself that better suspension will be able to "utilize" more of the tire and so on, but I still just don't know what to do.

I am pretty positive the car is running stock, O.E. recommended camber. The reason I am not super keen on getting just an alignment is it has never helped that much on some of my other cars. Or rather wasn't really worth the price that I paid for the gain that I received. I'm sure caster camber plates+alignment will help a ton (because a stock mustang with no CC plates is such a horrible starting point), but again, I feel my starting point is at rock bottom due to the terrible tires.

You might get somewhat better grip by changing the tires while keeping everything else the same, but that won't change the balance of the car (if anything, it is likely to induce greater understeer as you'll be that much further into the positive side of the camber curve up front).

I think you'll need to first decide if what you're primarily after is a short-term solution or a long-term one. In the short term, changing the tires will get you more grip (possibly at the expense of greater understeer). But tires are wear items that are guaranteed to be replaced sooner or later (and the harder you run them, the sooner they'll be replaced), and stickier tires tend not to last as long. That means you'll be replacing your current tires at some point no matter what, so you don't really gain that much by replacing them now -- that gain is merely more immediate.

Changing the suspension itself is a longer term solution. While you may not see much additional grip from the tires, the balance will be something you can change to suit your own personal handling tastes, at least if you get adjustable sway bars. And camber plates will help your front tires last quite a lot longer, which will reduce your expenses in the long run (though making your current tires last longer might not exactly be what you want :biggrin:), while also increasing front grip and thus reducing understeer.

If it were me, I'd modify the suspension with, at a minimum, camber plates and sway bars (I'd get better dampers as well, if that's in the budget -- Koni Sports if you're not changing the springs, and perhaps Bilsteins if you're getting substantially stiffer springs -- but would do the sway bars and camber plates first). Tires that don't grip very well can be quite a lot of fun in their own right if the car is nicely balanced. You probably won't win competitions that way, so if winning is more important than having fun (or is necessary to you for having fun) then simply modifying the suspension won't be enough for that. But then, simply changing the tires probably won't be quite enough for that either. Winning probably requires better tires and a suspension with better characteristics, so you may as well do the suspension first and have large amounts of fun with the tires you have. You'll have to replace them eventually anyway, at which point you'll be able to get something much closer to what you're after (and if you replace the wheels as well, then you can get 18x10 or perhaps even 18x11 wheels all the way around with seriously grippy tires).


You're quite obviously budget limited, otherwise you'd be taking care of the whole kit and kaboodle all at once. That means you probably want to spend your money in a way that maximizes your return on investment. I can't climb into your head to know what's most important to you here, but if it were me, I'd modify the suspension first to make the car handle to my liking, and then replace the tires once they're worn out. I'd do that because it would be the fastest way to maximize the fun I could get out of the car, even if it meant sacrificing some initial autocross wins.

And trust me: driving the car at the limits of grip and making it do whatever you want because it responds so nicely to your inputs is massive fun, no matter whether you're winning or not. I can't speak for you, of course, but I'm in this for the fun of it first and foremost (why do it otherwise?).
 

stevbd

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Goose, I think you just need to decide what is bothering you the most short term while having a long term plan for your car. In your OP you said you wanted to dial out understeer and you're on a budget. If that's still all you're trying to do, I would just buy an adjustable rear sway bar and for short money and half an hour of your time you could dial a lot of that out. If you've changed your mind and now instead want to start by getting rid of roll, squat, and brake dive, spend your $1000 on good shocks and struts and maybe some springs. If you've changed your mind again (hey, we all do it) and now want maximum grip, then start with better tires. But better tires won't get rid of the understeer, roll, squat or dive - obviously those things will continue to happen but just at higher levels of grip. And to really get a game changer tire setup, it seems you would want to buy better rims which in turn would blow your budget.

I don't mean to sound critical, we've all gone down this rabbit hole. But unless you have an unlimited budget you have to prioritize. And it's really more fun and productive to one or two small changes at a time, based on what is bothering you the most.

Personally I would do either No. 1 or No. 2. I hate throwing away brand new stuff, and while the Pirellis certainly aren't MPSS, they aren't the worst tires either and I think you could have a lot of fun wearing them out while you focus on other things.

Good luck, have fun.
 

740weapon

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You can fix 1/2 the camber problem for free. See the attached image of the slotted bottom strut hole on my Konis.

I'm running those slots with the full sized cross-bolts and camber plates.

After doing this, you have to fix the toe.
 

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2008 V6

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You can fix 1/2 the camber problem for free. See the attached image of the slotted bottom strut hole on my Konis.

I'm running those slots with the full sized cross-bolts and camber plates.

After doing this, you have to fix the toe.

I would strongly suggest making an insert to fill the void in the oval or weld thick washers to the outside of the strut once you get the camber you are happy with.
 

Norm Peterson

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Or a thick eccentric washer tacked to the bolt head and a couple of "fences" tacked to the strut ear, which would allow adjustability afterward.


Norm
 

2008 V6

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Or a thick eccentric washer tacked to the bolt head and a couple of "fences" tacked to the strut ear, which would allow adjustability afterward.


Norm

That is a great idea - I wish I thought of that when I did mine
 

Norm Peterson

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I can't claim all the credit (although I did do something vaguely similar on the Mazda 626 that I used to autocross).

My wife's Subie has taken a similar approach as their OE solution to front camber adjustment, even incorporating a scale of sorts where one line = some specific amount of change.

Peter Basica has taken the eccentric washer approach to the aftermarket for caster adjustment on the 5th gen Camaros. Obviously the eccentric washer on the nut side must be left loose (looks like it's there to eliminate all possible bending from the bolt).

picture.php



Norm
 
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2008 V6

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Thanks Norm - I will remember this if I ever have to do something similar again
 

Goose428

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Hi everyone,

Thank you so much for all the help. Thanks to all your great info, I have decided to go with suspension parts first. And low key though, Steve and Kcbrown, you guys were in my head. Like weirdly so. We've got engineers and psychiatrists on this forum! Lol.

Any recommendations on CC plates and sway bars? Jack hidley from Maximum recommended me these three items, anyone have a reason I shouldn't go with these?

1.) http://www.maximummotorsports.com/MM-Adjustable-Front-Swaybar-2005-2014-Mustang-P1449.aspx

2.) http://www.maximummotorsports.com/HR-Rear-S197-Swaybar-P1269.aspx

3.) http://www.maximummotorsports.com/M...ates-2005-2010-and-2007-2014-GT500-P1151.aspx

Thank You all for the help.
 

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