Setup Questions/Quick Intro

ChuckyRick

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Being as this is my first post geared towards the handling side of things i figured it would be appropriate to give a run down on my current set-up and quick blob about myself since i've yet to do that since i joined. Even though i'm always on here reading, i don't post a whole lot

Although i've had various Fords ever since i got my license (Mostly old beat up trucks), i pinched pennies and worked alot all through school until eventually i bought my current mustang, a 2005 Black GT 5spd my first summer out of highschool back in 2014. I then went to trade school for two years taking HD/Truck & Transport, I worked in a truck shop after school hours for most of my two years in school, and now i find myself in the heavy equipment side of the industry. More on the car: Bought it from a local dealer who took it in on trade from an RCMP officer (The only other owner) who bought a 2014 GT. It was bought and regularly serviced by said dealership it's whole life, and left bone stock.

Fast forward two years, the direction the car is heading is kind of an "All round street car". I like to hit the twisty roads all summer, Then a few times a year bolt on DR's and the bottle and hit the strip. Plans to maybe AutoX the car this year, However this is simply to see what the limit of the car (and driver) is and i have no plans whatsoever to spend big money on handling specific parts to be faster next time i go. I do drive the car quite a bit in the summer so although NVH isn't a hugeee concern (At 21 i'm still pretty tolerant of anything loud and violent) it's always a consideration.

Suspension Mod List:

BMR Adj Panhard Bar (Poly)
BMR Fixed LCA's (Poly/Poly)
BMR Adj UCA (Poly)
BMR Lowering Springs - At the time i ordered them i believe they only offered 1 set, So i assume they're the same as the "plain" ones you can buy now, ie: Not Handling, Not Drag
BMR Motor Mounts (Not suspension, But more BMR parts lol)
Boss 302 Sway Bars
Spherical Diff Bushing
Factory Ford A-Arm Brace added
Factory 5.0 takeoff STB
Poly FCA Bushings

At this point it's worth noting, When i put the car away this fall the only suspension mods were springs & panhard (And motor mounts lol). Now inspiration for this suspension "build" i guess summed up would be a "slightly improved boss 302". I don't want a racecar, Just something that is respectable around the twisties that can pull Drag strip duty as well. In a few weeks once the salt disappears i'll be pulling the car out for it's first shakedown since beefing up the suspension this winter, Then determining what else would be a reasonable/worthwhile investment.

I know one of the first things i plan to do is get the alignment set at 0 Toe (Camber is fixed at around -1.5 to -2.0 degrees i believe, As i have the GT500 mounts turned 180 degrees). I looked into Bumpsteer & the kits associated with it, But it was non existent before on these springs, and i have no reason to believe it would emerge now as i didn't change any geometry up front. Plus my FCA and tierod seem to be on the same plane. I think i read somewhere that a quick way to eyeball it. Now also i don't think i'm lowered enough (Springs claim 1.5" but i think it ended up a little less) that my roll center needs to be addressed, However if anyone thinks otherwise please chime in.

My biggest concern right now having not driven the car yet is my rear springs. Remember earlier when i mentioned my inspiration/goal was to be on par with the Boss 302? Well if we go by specs, My front springs are about 10% stiffer than the boss at 28.9 N/mm vs the std boss at 26 & boss LS at 24. However my rears are quite a bit softer at 28.0 N/mm vs the std boss at 32.5 and boss LS at 33.5 (Apologies for using N/mm, that's just the numbers i saw ford publish for the boss so i converted BMR's numbers). That's around 14-15% softer. Also spring-rate (linear) wise these are identical to the working rate of their "drag" springs. Now if i bought the "handling" rear springs from BMR that would put me at 35 N/mm, or about 8% stiffer than the std boss. Which for all intents and purposes we can round up and say my springs would be 10% stiffer than the boss all around. Couple that with the low-deflection poly FCA bushings, stiffer UCA & Spherical axle bushing, and stiffer LCA's (It's my understanding boss LCA's were just std GT LCA's with stiffer bushings), and everything else (Swaybars & chassis bracing) being identical to the std boss. I think i would have a car that although by no means would it be a racecar, should be respectable on a twisty road? So to sum up question 1) should i grab the rear handling BMR springs to give me similar spring balance to the Boss that i'm modeling my car around? Or do you guys think the difference wouldn't be noticeable?

I know at this point i mentioned the word Boss more times than i can count, and i'm sure some of you are thinking "why model your car around the boss? theres so much room for improvement". Well to clarify one thing, I'm not trying to make a boss "clone". I just picked the most respectable handling S197 from the factory to try a match it for my own personal enjoyment around the twisties and maybe AutoX if i take a liking to it. The majority of the aftermarket parts i bought will help me at the drag strip as well as handling. Anything that is strictly handling oriented i bought dirt cheap NTO or used.

Which speaking of pulling double duty, That rolls me into question 2. Being lowered 1.5" would i see much of a benefit from LCA relo brackets? More specifically would i see a benefit in BOTH aspects (Drag and Handling)? This is another topic i looked into and from what i read. I don't believe i'm even lowered enough that my instant center/control arm angles would be THAT bad. I mean for a car that isn't a dedicated drag car that doesn't even see full slicks. Would i see a major benfit? I read on here recently i believe, Someone else asked about relo brackets for their car, I think it was more around setting them up. I remember somebody mentioned they would probably set them down 2-3 holes at the strip, and then on the street bring it up to like the first hole or something. I wish i could find the thread right now.. Anyways to shorten this whole thing up here. Is that was the case and the best setting for the street is (obv it depends of setup, I'm just looking for general rule of thumb lowered 1.5") the 1st or top hole on the relo bracket? From what I understand it mostly aides in getting off the corner? So did most of you guys see a major improvement over stock? I would think having it set at the top hole wouldn't be a whole lot different than the factory axle hole. Thus making me think this is something geared towards the drag crowd who drive their cars on the street, and not the other way around.

3rd question, quick one. Subframe connectors. Talked to a local guy with a terminator, Said they were the best thing he ever did to his car. Never talked to anyone with them on an S197. I don't recall ever seeing it discussed in much detail on here either. Are they a good addition for a street car? Perhaps i should re-word that as i know there are almost no cons to them and they'd aid in both 1/4 mile and handling.. Would i see see a difference given how mildly modded my car is?

4th question and probably the only one other than the springs that i would easily notice, Also probably the most important out of all 4. Shocks/Struts. I'm still running factory units and i know this will be the biggest improvement to my car. I know a adj drag shock like the Strange 10-way won't handle great. However are there ANY out there that could possibly suffice for a dual purpose shock/strut? My whole goal here is to be able to drive my car through a twisty winding road, come home, pull my front sway bar off, adjust my LCA brackets (if you guys think they'd be a worthwhile investment), change my valving around on my shocks/struts, bolt on my DR's, toss the bottle in the trunk and go run at the strip. Are there any adjustables out there that have a broad enough range to pull this off? or are they all either drag oriented and handling oriented and none of them have enough range to accomplish both?

I know this is alot but if anyone can chime in with thoughts or personal experiences that would be great. Like i mentioned numerous times, this isn't a dedicated drag car nor is it a time attack car. Just a street car that will hopefully feel good on twisty roads and can take it to the drag strip if i want. So please keep that in mind, cheers
 

stevbd

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Quite a bit here. For good handling on a road course, auto-x, or daily driving, absolutely start with good dampers and tires, the best you can get. Something like Bilsteins or Konis, and a well rated summer max performance tire. Keep a square setup to avoid understeer and allow rotation. You don't mention wheels, but obviously lighter and wider is generally better, within reason, with the track widened as much as possible without poking beyond the fenders. I know nothing about setting up a car for drag racing.

Good luck, sounds like a fun car.
 

ChuckyRick

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Yes for sure, I know investing in a good quality set of dampers will be the best/most noticeable thing i could do to the car at this point. Everything else is either a $100-150 fix or $0 if deemed unnecessary. Where as dampers i can see running me well over $1500 (Canadian Dollar), Which is why i listed it last. Mainly trying to get the car set-up right in the other aspects so dampers are the final piece to the puzzle.

In regards to wheels/tires, I'm currently running heavy (I think 26lbs) 19"x8.5" ADR's wrapped in 255's at all fours. In the future i'd like to bump it up to some 19"x9.5" wrapped in 275's or 285's in a lighter wheel. But after buying some dampers later this spring i might run my car budget dry for awhile. So probably won't happen until next year.

I'm hoping someone will chime in soon on the effects of running a stiffer front spring vs a stiffer rear spring. I would think Ford knew what they were doing when they stuck a stiffer rear spring on the Boss. However i'm also a huge fan of BMR products and they decided to setup their spring kits with a stiffer front spring, so i'm at a loss of what to think.
 

Norm Peterson

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Yes for sure, I know investing in a good quality set of dampers will be the best/most noticeable thing i could do to the car at this point. Everything else is either a $100-150 fix or $0 if deemed unnecessary. Where as dampers i can see running me well over $1500 (Canadian Dollar), Which is why i listed it last. Mainly trying to get the car set-up right in the other aspects so dampers are the final piece to the puzzle.
Better dampers are going to make the car more composed in any driving, and can be used to tweak corner entry and corner exit behavior at least a little. I happen to like Koni yellows for their adjustability (street, street with a passenger aboard, track settings are all enough different from each other to make this a very valuable capability for me). Yellows may not tolerate lowering much past 1" though. Other people like (non-adjustable) Bilsteins. Tokicos tend to be harsh over some surfaces, just like the OE rear shocks were.


In regards to wheels/tires, I'm currently running heavy (I think 26lbs) 19"x8.5" ADR's wrapped in 255's at all fours. In the future i'd like to bump it up to some 19"x9.5" wrapped in 275's or 285's in a lighter wheel. But after buying some dampers later this spring i might run my car budget dry for awhile. So probably won't happen until next year.
For 275's or 285's I'm going to suggest giving 10" wide wheels some thought (I think around +43 offset is what you'd need here), especially if there's any serious consideration of 285/xx tires. Tires on minimum-recommended width wheels tend to have softer cornering response and aren't as 'precise' because they aren't supported as well against side loads. Just so you know, I bought a set of 18x9.5 GT500 wheels pretty soon after getting my '08 GT and put 255/45-18 tires on all four (max-recommended wheel width for that size). This was initially for street use only, but I ended up running track days up to the intermediate group that way. Those wheels now have 265/40-18's on them (MPSS tires, and I'm fine with them being a good bit shorter than OE). The track set is wider tires on wider wheels (at least the tread is under the sheetmetal, if barely so).

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I'm hoping someone will chime in soon on the effects of running a stiffer front spring vs a stiffer rear spring. I would think Ford knew what they were doing when they stuck a stiffer rear spring on the Boss. However i'm also a huge fan of BMR products and they decided to setup their spring kits with a stiffer front spring, so i'm at a loss of what to think.
Near as I can tell, Ford's OE setups are partly from considerations of "flat ride" and partly because the springs aren't set all that far out on the axle tubes. And they probably weren't willing to go too large on the rear sta-bar to fix roll stiffness distribution that way.

When you swap from OE springs and whatever combination of sta-bar settings to a set of aftermarket springs that are front-biased in terms of spring rate, you'll need a little more rear bar stiffness to maintain the same mid-corner balance. Here's where bars with adjustments come in handy.


I'll try to get to the other matters, but since in general there's nothing unstreetable about my '08 the way it sits, that tends to be my basis for "how far to go" and "avoidance of mods that mainly serve to lighten the wallet". I'm a fair bit older than you, but I still have good tolerance for ride firmness (I think BMR's GT500 handling springs - 260f/220r lb/in ride decently enough once the damping was sorted out), much less tolerance for lowering (only a little over half an inch/15mm), and very little for harshness.


Norm
 
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ChuckyRick

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Informative post like always Norm!
I did briefly look at the Koni yellows browsing dampers, and i must admit i brushed them aside as i had some older model Koni's on a previous car of mine. They were a red model and only had 9 (Single) adjustment settings, The adjustment knob was on the body of the shock and the range of which went from VERY soft to VERY stiff. Near impossible to get "dialed in". However the fact that you are a fan of them makes me consider them a alot more now. I'm sure the Koni Yellows are leaps and bounds better than what i had on that old car.

I also heard people had very positive reviews about the Bilstiens. However for a few dollars more are the Ford Performance Adjustables. Although i haven't heard any solid feedback on those yet, It's been speculated (On the American Muscle reviews section, So i take it with a grain of salt) that they're manufactured by Tokico and themselves are actually a redesigned D-Spec that one owner claimed vastly improved ride quality over his previous "actual" D-Spec set-up. Like you mentioned ride quality was the major complaint i heard about Tokico units, Apparently these fix that. At this point in time these are what i'm leaning towards, However i'm waiting to hear some good solid feedback from someone before i go ahead and purchase.

The only other option i actually considered at this point was the Eibach Pro-Dampers, They're cheap enough to justify buying a non-adj, and seem to have great reviews. Also i could purchase a pair of Lakewood Drag 50/50's for the back and still be in everything for $250-$300 ($150 vs Koni Yellows) less than a quality pair of adjustables. I (or should i say my wallet) like this idea as i'm not going to try and really get the car dialed in for track duty. However i'm hesitant as being a non-adj; if i purchase them and end up finding them too soft or too firm (rough) i'm stuck with them.

I'll definitely keep that in mind about the wheel width Norm. Your bit about the spring bias and swaybars is exactly what i was looking for, Given i'm running OE Boss bars i think i may try to mimic the OE spring bias by purchasing the rear "Handling" springs from BMR. Hopefully Kelly or Dylan can reach out to me tmr when they get to work and help me out a little
 

46addict

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It sounds like you've got most of it figured out.
One thing I want to point out is for your front LCAs, you can get the GT500 arms with the ball joints attached to make it a remove & replace job. Drilling out 12 year old bushings might become time consuming and having new ball joints is a good thing.

I'm not sure if the Lakewoods or any drag shocks will do you well in the corners, so I would stick with the Eibach dampers for now. The lack of spring rate in the rear can be compensated with a bigger rear bar, or a change in driving style. If you experiment with different corner entry points/entry speeds/throttle tip-in you may find you do not need to change your setup. Sounds crazy but it's my suggestion from a minimalist standpoint.

Rear LCAs need to be angled upward towards the chassis and if not they can hurt your drag launches and could also hurt your corner exits if you're going sideways/burning rubber as you try to accelerate.

You do not want 0 toe for a car that is spiritedly driven. I would start with 1/16"-3/32" toe out to help turn-in. Another thing you don't want is spherical rod ends on any pivot point. It's one thing to have a stiff riding street car and another to have a car that clunks over every bump and sends vibrations through multiple locations.

And don't forget to look at brake pads/lines before you head out to auto-x/canyon carving events.
 
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Sky Render

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Dude, you post so much wrong shit about handling, it's not even funny.

Zero toe is perfect for a street driven car. You DO NOT WANT TOE OUT, unless you like your car feeling like it's all over the road or you have a car that is 99% track-driven.

The use of rod ends, in my opinion, is too hard core for a street car, with one exception: the panhard bar. Rod ends on a panhard bar will give you almost all the benefits of a watts link at a tenth the cost and a quarter the weight.
 
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46addict

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It's just based on personal experience. Your mileage will vary.
With 275 width Nitto NT555s in the front I tramline everywhere with 0 toe or toe-out. I've given up on trying to get it to go perfectly straight. Going to try a different tire brand once it's time to replace.
 

Norm Peterson

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The use of rod ends, in my opinion, is too hard core for a street car, with one exception: the panhard bar. Rod ends on a panhard bar will give you almost all the benefits of a watts link at a tenth the cost and a quarter the weight.
Feel free to add rod ends in any sta-bar endlink to your list of street-acceptable locations. I've had UMI's on my car ever since I swapped in an adjustable front bar - which means several NJ winters and a car that's lived its entire life outdoors. Still zero clunking, and that's with a 100% complete OE exhaust.


Norm
 

Norm Peterson

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It's just based on personal experience. Your mileage will vary.
With 275 width Nitto NT555s in the front I tramline everywhere with 0 toe or toe-out. I've given up on trying to get it to go perfectly straight. Going to try a different tire brand once it's time to replace.
I realize that some tires are worse about tramlining than others . . . but don't blame the tires until you've corrected that known source of nervousness in straight-ahead driving. Different car, but I've been there - amazing what only 1/32" or so of static toe in can do for that sort of twitchiness.

1/32" toe in may not be the hot tip for maximizing autocross performance or time trialing with contingencies at stake, but for a car that's at least 80% street driven and pushed up to maybe 9.5 tenths at an HPDE it's a realistic "set it and forget it" solution.


Norm
 

ChuckyRick

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46Addict - That's a good suggestion on the GT500 arms for sure. If i didn't just replace my ball joints last fall i would most definitely go that route. Also that bit about the LCA's is exactly what i was looking for, Seems like a quick easy way to judge if i should invest in Relo Brackets, I'll have a look next time i'm working on the car.
In reference to the Lakewoods, I suppose i should have rephrased that part, The drag shocks would just be a simple swap in the day's i do go to the track. In street/AutoX trim i would in fact be running Eibachs (If i go that route) at all fours.


Sky Render- Any further reasoning why the Tokico/FRPP's are "garbage"? Just curious. I did consider switching to rod ends on the panhard, and perhaps i may go that route in the future once i get some quality dampers underneath the car and really get a feeling for where it's at. I read the first few pages of your build thread numerous times, What's your opinion on the Koni Yellows?

My reasoning for installing a spherical axle bushing was i was told/under the impression that having Poly/Poly for your 3rd link and axle could create some binding. I forgot to mention i previously had a Poly axle bushing.. Well in fact i still do, I was gonna install my springs, Adj UCA (UMI Stepped washers, Stock mount) & Spherical axle bushing all in one go. Have yet to actually purchase the springs.

I intend to get my alignment set at 0 toe, If excessive tram-lining or darting is present i'll simply get it adjusted to a very slight toe-in. Also intend on upgrading to SS lines and good Dot 4 fluid at the same time my McLeod goes in (Waiting until the weather clears up as i'd rather do it on a lift at work than jackstands in my shop out at my dads place) as I'm installing a standalone clutch reservoir and will be flushing the system anyways.

Quick question for you guys in regards to brake fluid flushing mentioned above. How often do you guys who actually run your brakes hard do a full flush and how often, if any, do you change out the fluid in your reservoir? I was reading on a GM forum (while trying to track down a GTO Clutch Res) that in addition to a full flush when things get excessively dirty, some people recommend sucking the fluid out of your reservoir (i assume with a turkey baster or simple suction gun) and topping it up with fresh fluid every oil change
 

El_Tortuga

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Should be good to go with zero toe. I actually run a little toe out, about an 1/8" on my street settings. Tramlining exists, but its pretty mild / manageable. No issues at speed, just some movement on the heaves and swells that dominate my city. Might be muted by the amount of caster (all of it).

When I do the track alignment (-2.7 camber) it adds a fair bit more of the toe-out. A tiny bit nervous under braking, but I think it helps make the turn-in sharper. Works for me.
 

El_Tortuga

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Also, YESSSSS on rear LCA relocation brackets. Significant improvement in fwd bite for cheap.
 

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I'm going to chime in and say you have a few unecessary's on the list.
Motor mounts won't make much difference besides extra vibration
Front control arms are sort of unecessary, but replacing the FCA bushings with better ones isn't a bad idea.
By STB I assume you mean the strut tower bar. Don't bother, it does nothing noticeable. Dead weight.

I'll also add to the list of people who say Bilsteins or Konis are better than the Ford Racing adjustable setup.

I wouldn't worry about how the Boss springs are biased to the rear. I'm sure that all has to do with manufacturers trying to dial in some understeer for safety. Every performance spring set is less stiff in the rear than the front. I think stiffening the front helps a lot more anyway while hurting ride quality less than stiffening the rear..
 
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Sky Render

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Toe out doesn't really affect tramlining; it creates more of a twitchy and unsettled feeling. Tramlining is mainly increased by tread pattern (mostly), tire width (somewhat), and increased caster (a little).
 

Norm Peterson

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Any further reasoning why the Tokico/FRPP's are "garbage"? Just curious.
If they had any of the same people who were on the 'Illumina' shock design team, expect excessive high speed bump harshness for any given amount of spring control. Think railroad grade crossings and similar short, sharp bumps. Maybe track curbs on 100 mph kinks.


My reasoning for installing a spherical axle bushing was i was told/under the impression that having Poly/Poly for your 3rd link and axle could create some binding.
Entirely true, unless you go to some trouble to modify the poly. Same goes for the rear LCAs. I'm running poly/spherical LCAs (that don't use rod ends and have been quiet ever since installing them back in 2012.


Quick question for you guys in regards to brake fluid flushing mentioned above. How often do you guys who actually run your brakes hard do a full flush and how often, if any, do you change out the fluid in your reservoir?
If you bleed enough fluid out of the calipers before each event so that it runs its normal amber color, that's about half a liter and you'll be close to giving your system a full flush about every third time. For the first time, of course you'd want to do a full flush just to make sure that all of the fluid is the good stuff.


Assuming you'll be in 3rd gear and higher almost everywhere on the track, I don't think a stock-ish 4.6L-powered car will see enough overall benefit from relocating the rear LCAs - unless the car has been lowered.


Norm
 

ChuckyRick

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Roger that, So 3-4 people who are voting for the Koni's or Bilstiens and no real mention of anything else. Tells me all i need to know really. I'll start looking for the best price on the Konis.

At this point i may just leave my current spring set alone (Likewise on the Relo brackets) and see how the car feels with some proper dampers. Like i mentioned before, It's really a spirited street/strip car not a street/track car. However when i take it to my first AutoX this summer who knows- I might be hooked.

Noldevin - I actually had my motor mounts installed for the better part of a year now, Mainly to control some driveline twist when drag racing and can honestly say i have more confidence that i won't get locked out of gears at high rpm now. Although i agree vibrations almost drove me crazy for the first few days then it seemed like they "broke in" or i just got used to it.. You're probably right about the STB, i picked it up for $50
local so i'm not too concerned. I'll make some runs with and without it and see how it feels.

In regards to power, Quite frankly in daily trim there is none to brag about.. Not that that's a bad thing, I personally think in any kind of a racing situation that makes you become a better driver. Just a JLT Series 3 CAI, CMDP's, UDP's, Full exhaust and dyno tune. I am gonna spray it to around/just under 450whp at the strip but obviously not on the street. Stock trans, McLeod SS Pro clucth (soon). The springs i'm currently on do claim 1.5" lowering, However it's closer to 1"-1.25" i found in my application.

Rear-end is just rebuilt with the stock 3.55 gears, welded axle tubes, DIY catch can, LPW girdle, and carbon clutch plates. I'm sure some of your may have seen the would-be build thread for that, i think Skyrender even chimed in on diff choices. Well long story short i got approved for laser eye correction surgery around christmas time and that ate up almost all the motor/rear-end build money, so it was refreshed on a budget.

Thanks all for your input so far
 

stevbd

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The advantage of the Konis is they are rebound adjustable and maybe a bit cheaper. The advantages of the Bilsteins is they are monotube construction, arguably better quality, and (this is the big thing in my opinion) they have digressive valving. This last part allows you to get the effective damping you want without the sharp bump impact harshness you get with other shocks when you turn up the damping to where you want it. It's what gives you that taut but not crashy ride.

Pros and cons to both but sometimes people are just a little quick to recommend what they use without supporting details.
 

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