New intercooler pump flow info...

jaja6009

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I just added a Meziere 20GPM water pump to my Saleen intercooler system hoping that this pump would flow more than the stock. Well it looks like it does not from new info from Lingenfelter where they tested some of the different water pumps out there.
The best flowing pump under high or low pressures is the Stewart EMP 2512. Shockingly the Meziere 20 GPM and 55 GPM do not flow well as the differential pressure grows in the system.

Lingenfelter info:http://www.lingenfelter.com/LPEforumfiles/showthread.php?2029-Intercooler-pump-flow-testing-results

A test on a Saleen between a 20gpm and stock pump using only the heat exchanger and some 3/4 hose.
http://saleenforums.soec.org/showthread.php?t=15296

The Stewart EMP pump is the one used in Saleen upgraded heat exchanger system that was priced at a shocking $1200-1500. Makes me think they chose this pump as it flows a lot more than stock or the Meziere units.

Just wanted to share good info I found... Maybe make you rethink what pump you add to you intercooler system.
 

CPRsm

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Take it w a grain of salt. The Mez pumps move too much water to be used w heat exchangers I think. There's a balance when you need the water to hang out in the exchanger to be cooled. But I've said before HE are a restriction and why we don't run them. But they are required for some blowers. But if you have 10psi of of head pressure you have a problem!! Lol
Going to have to look into that Stewart pump though!
 

bigstick

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Yeah, I saw that post on the Saleen forum a few days ago myself. I *really* wish that he would have posted that a month ago. BEFORE I bought/installed the Meziere 20gpm pump....sigh. Another crap load of money for a mod of minimal value.
 

908ssp

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Take it w a grain of salt. The Mez pumps move too much water to be used w heat exchangers I think. There's a balance when you need the water to hang out in the exchanger to be cooled. But I've said before HE are a restriction and why we don't run them. But they are required for some blowers. But if you have 10psi of of head pressure you have a problem!! Lol
Going to have to look into that Stewart pump though!

Sorry this is complete nonsense.

That is an old wives tale that the water has to remain in contact with the heat source to remove heat. The fact is the faster the water moves the better. The more that passes over a heat source the faster the heat is absorbed by the water. Heat transfer is a complex subject and every little thing adds up. Fact you can't move the water too fast. Fact the bigger the heat exchanger the better. The more air that flows through the heat exchanger the better. Fact the more air that exists the engine compartment the more air flows through the heat exchanger. The more air flow the better. The biggest limiter is the intercooler and there isn't much you can do with that. Make sure all your hoses are at least 3/4" and all your bends as big and gentle as possible. All your fittings are as large as possible. Every little bit helps. Also recent testing has shown that most cold air kits aren't. If the air is hot going into the filter you are starting out with a disadvantage. Sealing the air from the engine and flooding the filter with cool outside air can be a big help.
 

XxBoostinxX

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Yeah, I saw that post on the Saleen forum a few days ago myself. I *really* wish that he would have posted that a month ago. BEFORE I bought/installed the Meziere 20gpm pump....sigh. Another crap load of money for a mod of minimal value.

That sucks bro. Thank god I caught it. I was about to pull the trigger on one and he saved me a couple hundred bucks.


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YoungPony

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I absolutely noticed a gain with the 20 GPM by Meziere over the one that comes with my Whipple kit. Before the flow was very little back into my reservoir and with the new pump it is a solid stream shooting forcefully into the reservoir. Also lowered over all intake air temps.
 

CPRsm

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Entirely possible. If your heat exchanger can keep up, inlets will go down.


Sorry this is complete nonsense.
It's absolutely not nonsense. You are confusing how an intercooler works vs a heat exchanger. One uses water to extract heat, the other uses air.


That is an old wives tale that the water has to remain in contact with the heat source to remove heat. The fact is the faster the water moves the better. The more that passes over a heat source the faster the heat is absorbed by the water.
Correct. When the water is pulling out heat. The faster it moves the larger the temperature differential, the faster it will cool. Just like an intercooler.

Heat transfer is a complex subject and every little thing adds up. Fact you can't move the water too fast. Fact the bigger the heat exchanger the better. The more air that flows through the heat exchanger the better. Fact the more air that exists the engine compartment the more air flows through the heat exchanger. The more air flow the better. The biggest limiter is the intercooler and there isn't much you can do with that.
Yes, since the air is extracting the heat, the more the better. More air will bring more ambiant air which again is a larger temperature differential. A larger heat exchanger gives the water more contact with aluminum and heat extraction. You wouldn't ever need a larger heat exchanger if the water could move slow enough. If the water sat completely still in the heat exchanger with air passing over it, the water would become ambiant temp. We can't have it sit still like that because the intercool needs it. The more the better. Since the water moves too fast thru the heat exchanger to stay cool, we go larger capacity.


If you still don't think so, we've all seen an example of the same scenario before. Ever heard of a 160 deg thermostat resulting in 200 engine temps? The water moves too fast for the capacity of the radiator. It can't drop the water temp enough below 160 before it has to enter the engine again. So you have to either up the t-stat temp or up radiator capacity
 
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Department Of Boost

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On the subject of moving water too fast I have this information:

The Bell Intercoooler engineers (Bell is who we get our cores from) told me that you can’t move water through the intercooler too fast. End of story.

The Griffin radiator guys (Griffin does our custom heat exchangers) told me you can’t run the water though the heat exchanger too fast. End of story.

The Meziere engineers, who I have dealt with a lot while doing our testing told me you can’t run the water through the system too fast. No cavetas, no “but in this case”, etc. It can’t be done. End of story.

EVERY single time we have gone up on pump size, or in one case ran two 55gpm pumps in series the IAT’s and IC water temps (we sample water temps in the IC system) have gone down. Every time.

This is all I will say about water speed. I refuse to get in a pissing match over this. If someone disagrees prove it. It is as easy as that. But short of proof backed up by testing I will take it as hear-say.

As for the Lingenfelter test, Saleen results, etc:

Cooling systems are very, very complex. A test conducted on one cooling system will not give you the same results as another if different parts are used. In this case the intercooler. The Saleen intercooler is VERY, VERY, VERY restrictive in comparison to a Department Of Boost, Whipple or GT500 one for example. Because the Saleen IC is more restrictive it has different needs. Pump flow and pressure are not the same thing. It looks to me like a Saleen intercooler is going to need a higher pressure pump than a DOB/GT500 type IC. Take a look at the GM (ZL1, ZR1, CTS-V, etc) IC’s too, they are very restrictive. That may explain Lingenfelters results.

The IC is the biggest restriction in any intercooler system.

If you put a high volume but relatively low pressure pump on a restrictive system it will not show huge gains. Consequently if you put a high pressure low volume pump on a low restriction system you will not see big gains either. Different tools for different jobs.

We have not done testing as “scientific” as Lingenfelter has on the Meziere pumps. But we didn’t see a need to get so crazy with the testing. Every time we put a bigger pump on the IAT’s went down. Not just a little, a lot. And the water flow was visibly more. Not just a little, a lot more. We also have the benefit of all the testing Ford Racing did on the Cobra Jet program. They were having problems vaporizing the fluid IN the IC using the GT500 water pump. They got just plain bonkers with the testing (70 different data points!) and ended up running the Meziere 55gpm pumps.

The Saleen solution may be to run a different style pump like that Stewart. IDK.

Other issues:

Do you know what your pre blower IAT’s are? Most people don’t. If you are putting hot air into the CAI your IC doesn’t stand a chance. I have my car set up to sample pre blower IAT’s (I call them IAT1’s), I measure them at the air filter. When it is 80deg out my IAT1’s are 90deg while cruising down the freeway (best air the car will get). When I am at a light they are as high as 115deg! Pretty hard to keep the IAT’s down when the “cold air” you are using is already hot.

My next test/project is to lower my IAT1’s by getting air from outside the engine compartment with a completely sealed “airbox”, and we are going to heat shield EVERYTHING before the throttle body, etc. I can watch my IAT1’s, as they go down so do my IAT2’s (post blower). They trick is getting those IAT1’s down all the time.

Food for thought. I also sample engine compartment temps. When driving around town on a 75-80deg day I have seen them get up in the 175deg range. And I have hood vents! That is what you are battling.
 
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Department Of Boost

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Intercooler size:

Here is a pic I found of the Saleen Intercooler. As you can see by the cut-away it is not very big at all and “finned” tight. If I give it the benefit of the doubt it has -10 fittings. They may be as small as -8 though. I’m also guessing here but it looks like the IC is about 10 x 5 x 1.5 (75 cu in of volume). Compared to a Department Of Boost, GT500, Whipple, etc IC it is a MASSIVE restiction. A IC this “tight” can be made to work. But it will need a higher pressure pump than the bigger IC’s need.

Half_Saleen026.jpg


saleeninstall032_zps7cf59d34.jpg


Here are some pics of the GM IC setup. This is a LS9, but the ZL1 and CTS-V are the same. GM did a pretty good job on “fitting size”. It looks like they are about a -10, maybe a -12. The way that they run it in then split it is probably not ideal though. But the intercoolers (IC’s) are teeney tiny! Holy smokes! I would guess them to be 10 x 2 x 1.5 (30 cu in of volume per IC, 60 cu in of volume total). But having two of them doesn’t do anything for coolant flow. This is another example of “tight” IC’s that need a high pressure pump.

0712phr_03_z+chevrolet_corvette_supercharged_ls9+intercooler.jpg


13-LS9SuperchargerIntercooler.jpg



The Department Of Boost IC is almost exactly the same size as the GT500 IC. The The Department Of Boost IC fittings are 3/4NPT so you can geat a real deal -12 I.D. fitting in there that will not restict a 3/4" hose (biggest I have ever seen on a IC). The GT500 and Whipple IC has -10 (or 5/8” fittings). The Department Of Boost IC is 10 x 4.5 x 4.5 (202.5 cu in of volume). The GT500 IC is 10 x 5 x 4 (200 cu in of volume). These are the IC’s we have been testing Meziere pumps on and getting fantastic results. They don’t need a high pressure pump though. They work best as a “high volume” system.

The Department Of Boost IC (sorry, I’m not cutting one in half).
DSCN4030_zps67a5a945.jpg


The GT500 IC.

161-m-6775-msvt.jpg


As you can see the Department Of Boost and GT500 IC’s are a LOT bigger volume than the Saleen or GM’s. In the Saleens case about 2.6 times the size, in the GM’s case about 3 times. That is a MASSIVE difference. Then there is the fitting/inlet size. Fitting/inlet/hose size is greatly underestimated. A small bump in size is a HUGE change in volume and therefore less resistance.

-12 (3.4”)= 285 cu mm

-10 (5/8”)= 198 cu mm

-8 (1/2”)= 126 cu mm

As you can see the size of the fitting goes up a lot with each step.

A -12 fitting is 40% larger than a -10.

A -10 is 58% larger than a -8.

A -12 is 126% larger than a -8. Yeah, double plus another 26%!

Fitting/hose size is not to be underestimated.
 

Department Of Boost

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The Meziere pumps were never designed for a high restiction system. They were designed to be engine cooling pumps, which are extreemly low restriction by comparison. We were talking Saturday, after seeing the above tests on the “tight” systems about what it would take to turn the Meziere pumps into high pressure/high volume pumps. Somewhere in the middle of high and low pressure. It can be done by simply making a different impeller. The trick is figuring out what kind of different it needs to be. This will not be happening anytime soon, were slammed, and out IC systems work great. But maybe this fall we can find the time to make some impellers and do some testing. If we can find a good baseline “solution” there is no reason that a Meziere pump couldn’t be set up as a high volume, high volume/high pressure or a high pressure pump and custom tailor them for the type of system they are being used in.
 

CPRsm

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When you guys always added flow and saw an increase were the HE always already upgraded or an acceptable size? I've guessing an improvement w two 55's had a huge HE on it? That come back around to you say the IC is the largest restriction, I don't see that either. HE tubing is smaller and longer which is more restrictive than a large open square/rectangle core of an IC. We run minimum 1in lines. So just necking down to HE fitting size could cause a problem. W high capacity HE do you guys run larger fittings also to help w that? We've made 1000hp with just a single 20gpm Mez pump and minimal inlet rise. This was also w the tank and pump in the trunk. So I just can't see the cooler being the restriction.



Do you know what your pre blower IAT’s are? Most people don’t. If you are putting hot air into the CAI your IC doesn’t stand a chance. I have my car set up to sample pre blower IAT’s (I call them IAT1’s), I measure them at the air filter. When it is 80deg out my IAT1’s are 90deg while cruising down the freeway (best air the car will get). When I am at a light they are as high as 115deg! Pretty hard to keep the IAT’s down when the “cold air” you are using is already hot.
Do you think it may be the lack of flow across the HE causing 115deg inlets? Sealing the inlet like you described for a true CAI should answer that question though. Post that up when you do. I'd really like to know. I would think it's more lack of air flow than hot inlets. Although it's not helping.


Sorry posting when you were.

That DOP IC is intersting. Any idea why they switch the path of the water flow or did they? You can see the stock GT500 routing compared to it and they are different. Usually done like the 500 so the exiting air sees the coolest water last.
 
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Fullboogie

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Department Of Boost

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When you guys always added flow and saw an increase were the HE always already upgraded or an acceptable size?
Yes, I see what you are getting at. If there is not enough HE in the system you will just be pumping hot/warm water faster. Which is of course not ideal, but I would still rather pump hot/warm water faster than slower.
Actually now that I think about it if you are dealing with hot/warm water you definitly want to pump it faster. So where you will probably not see significant gains running a big pump on a system with a HE that is too small, it certaily doesn’t hurt.

I've guessing an improvement w two 55's had a huge HE on it?
Yeah, the system is stupid. It has HE in the front and another in the back of the car.

That come back around to you say the IC is the largest restriction, I don't see that either. HE tubing is smaller and longer which is more restrictive than a large open square/rectangle core of an IC.
Even our big IC’s (2-3x the volume of the Saleen/GM IC’s) have more resrtiction than a -12 fitting/line. I’ve done the volume calculations with the Bell buys. The I.D. of the cores are quite a bit smaller and offer lot more restriction than you would think. As with most IC’s we run ours as a dual pass. One pass is 10x4.5x2.25 outside diameter, which seems pretty big. But the inside diameter and the fact that there are “fins” that run through the tubes which choke things down, reduces the flow dramaticaly. I don’t have my notes on this, we did these calcs over a year and a half ago. But one thing I will never forget is that the IC will not flow as much water as a -12 fitting/hose.

The Bell guys tell me that we would see a big performance increase if we ran the IC’s as single pass units (assuming you are feeding it enough water). A single pass is a packaging nightmare though and we would have to increase the HE inlet/outlet and all the hoses to at least 1” too. 1 1/4" being better. And that is not going to happen anytime soon if ever.

We run minimum 1in lines. So just necking down to HE fitting size could cause a problem.
Correct, bigger lines/fittings will always be better.


W high capacity HE do you guys run larger fittings also to help w that?
We are running a true -12 everywhere. If I were starting from scratch (not going to happen) I would go -16 or -20. But that isn't going to happen.

We've made 1000hp with just a single 20gpm Mez pump and minimal inlet rise. This was also w the tank and pump in the trunk.
This is the “fuzzy math” part of the problem. How much water in the system? Are you using ice during those pulls? Then there is a HUGE-GANTIC difference between running on the dyno, running around on the street or running around the road course. Getting a cooling system set up and able to handle “1000hp” in the dyno or run down the 1/4 is a COMPLETELY different than something that will handle 1000hp while driving around town or even worse yet hitting the road course. Our systems, especially mine will handle 1000hp on the dyno or the 1/4 with no problem. Mine would probably handle 2000+hp. But if you add heat soak (normal driving conditions) to that you are talking about completely different math. Kenne Bell’s “fuzzy math” is a perfect example of this. They say that their IC’s are good for 1400hp (no mention of pumps or HE’s though). Which I find to be helarious! I owned a KB rated at 1400hp. It was good for about 525-550 in the real world.

And you guys are running turbo’s right? That is a HUGE advatage when talking about heat soak. A screw blower is making heat all the time, you guys are only making heat while under boost. Your systems have time to recover between “pulls”. A system working with a screw blower doesn’t get much recovery at all. Actually a screw blower will make more heat sitting there idling than crusing down the road. Roots improved blowers are better than screw blowers, but still don’t have the recovery time of a turbo.

That said turbo’s have their own heat soak issues. Do you do your dyno testing with the hood closed? There is a big difference in IAT’s with the hood open, especially when the air filter(s) are open to the engine compartment. With the hood open IAT1’s are nearly ambient. With the hood closed they can be 180deg+ real easy.



So I just can't see the cooler being the restriction.
I assure you, it is.


Do you think it may be the lack of flow across the HE causing 115deg inlets?
No, my water temps in the IC system are crazy low (just above ambient) even in traffic. The other day I had IAT2's that were lower than my IAT1's sitting at a light. The IC system is doing its job and then some.

Sealing the inlet like you described for a true CAI should answer that question though. Post that up when you do.
For sure. When I have some hard data I'll post it up.

I would think it's more lack of air flow than hot inlets.
On most cars, probably yes. Or a combination of the two. On my car its all about the IAT1's.


That DOP IC is intersting. Any idea why they switch the path of the water flow or did they? You can see the stock GT500 routing compared to it and they are different. Usually done like the 500 so the exiting air sees the coolest water last.
I can’t get a straight answer out of anyone if there is an advantage/disadvantage running it the two different ways. The DOB IC runs down one half (lets say the right half), turns around, and runs down the other half (lets say the left side). The GT500 IC runs down the top half, turns around, and then runs down the bottom half.

I think the GT500 is set up because of packaging. The Gt500 manifold is not very wide and there is not much room to get the water in/out running the fittings side by side either. They may have just done it that way because it was worked out the best.

I’m not saying the left/right routing is the most ideal. I really don’t know. But just about everyone sets them up like that. Which of course means absolutely nothing. I have seen lots of setups that were all identical, and wrong. Just because “everyone does it” doesn’t mean its right. As I mentioned above the best way to do it is to run the IC as a single pass, but no one does that because of packaging.
 
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Department Of Boost

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The thread below is about 2 years old, but worth the read. There's a companion thread from about the same time frame that I can't find right now, but it's good too. General consensus seemed to be that the Meziere 20gpm was worth the money. Now I'm not so sure...

http://s197forum.com/forum/showthread.php?t=59350&highlight=WP136S

EDIT: here's the second one:

http://s197forum.com/forum/showthread.php?t=87625&highlight=meziere

Up untill a few days ago when I saw those Lingenfelter/Saleen tests I would have said the 20 and 55gpm Meizere pumps would always show gains. Now I’m having to calibrate that. Now I’m going to have to say on a low restriction system you will see gains, on a high restriction system you won’t.

You have a GT500 right? That is one of the lowest restriction systems there is. You will see gains with a Meziere pump.

But if someone asks me about a Saleen or an E-Force I’m going to have to give them a “it won’t hurt” answer.

And this whole thing has me thinking. Will the low restriction systems benefit from a higher pressure pump? Maybe not “high pressure”, just higher. I would like to test this, but it will take custom impellers.
 

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What about a kb 2.6? Meziere or something else then?


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Brezick

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Recently upgraded my KB pump to the Meziere 20gpm and on average seen roughly 10-15 degrees cooler IAT2 than before. Highway driving before I was always around 115-120, last time I had it our, I even managed to see 99, but stayed around 105-110. At lights, it stays around 120-125, where previously is was around 130.
 

Fullboogie

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Up untill a few days ago when I saw those Lingenfelter/Saleen tests I would have said the 20 and 55gpm Meizere pumps would always show gains. Now I’m having to calibrate that. Now I’m going to have to say on a low restriction system you will see gains, on a high restriction system you won’t.

You have a GT500 right? That is one of the lowest restriction systems there is. You will see gains with a Meziere pump.

But if someone asks me about a Saleen or an E-Force I’m going to have to give them a “it won’t hurt” answer.

And this whole thing has me thinking. Will the low restriction systems benefit from a higher pressure pump? Maybe not “high pressure”, just higher. I would like to test this, but it will take custom impellers.

Yes, I have a GT500 with the large dual-fan AFCO.

Given the complexity of this subject, it's no wonder that it's hard to pin down a "correct" answer to the H/E pump question. However, if you look in the threads I posted above, the OP in the first thread did actual testing on his system and the Meziere showed significant improvement in flow through the H/E circuit. I have to wonder if the ZL1 H/E circuit mentioned in the Lingenfelter thread simply could not handle a larger pump due to restrictions in the system (EDIT - I see that you mentioned this above).
 
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