running hot

csracing

forum member
Joined
May 17, 2010
Posts
318
Reaction score
0
Location
SE Wisconsin
I'm working on tuning and have noticed that the coolant temp on my car has been running in the 215-225 range. I have a 180 degree t-stat installed and it had no issue keeping cool with the original engine. Are these engines prone to have air pockets that get stuck or is there something else that isn't obvious to me that is making the engine run hot? Ambient today is about 75 degrees so it's not overly hot outside.

thanks
csr
 

07 Boss

Senior Member
Joined
Jan 25, 2009
Posts
3,858
Reaction score
989
Location
Sin City
Having a 180* thermostat does not mean it's supposed to keep it at 180*, it's just the point where the cooling system opens up and starts working. Today's modern engines are designed to run around 210*-220* so I'm not sure what you are worried about. You're right about where you should be. If you ran with no thermostat it would still reach the same temps, just take longer to do so.
 

csracing

forum member
Joined
May 17, 2010
Posts
318
Reaction score
0
Location
SE Wisconsin
I know that. The old setup ran around 192 degrees max per the data logs. A 30 degree delta is too much.
 

Stephen31201

forum member
Joined
Jun 24, 2015
Posts
195
Reaction score
0
If its any help, I run 195-198 consistently on a blown 4.6. If you have a tune check to see what your fan temp setting is. Also, I know if sounds basic, but double check your fan is coming on. I spent several hours chasing a very similar issue only to finally realize it was a blown fuse and the fan just wasn't coming on.
 

csracing

forum member
Joined
May 17, 2010
Posts
318
Reaction score
0
Location
SE Wisconsin
I'll double check the fan as well as how I have it configured. I'm fairly sure it's running properly as I seem to remember hearing it run.
 

Stephen31201

forum member
Joined
Jun 24, 2015
Posts
195
Reaction score
0
I know it sounds basic, but I feel the more I learn the more I skip the basics and go straight to in-depth thinking about issues.
 

Pentalab

forum member
Joined
Mar 5, 2013
Posts
5,216
Reaction score
1,104
I'm working on tuning and have noticed that the coolant temp on my car has been running in the 215-225 range. I have a 180 degree t-stat installed and it had no issue keeping cool with the original engine. Are these engines prone to have air pockets that get stuck or is there something else that isn't obvious to me that is making the engine run hot? Ambient today is about 75 degrees so it's not overly hot outside.

thanks
csr

I have an oem 190 deg F T- stat on my 2010 GT. Aerorforce gauges show 194-204 for the coolant...and slightly higher for the CHT. Low speed fan is set to 204....and high speed fan is set to 209.

Low speed fan comes on at 204..and coolant temp drops to 194, at which point the low speed fan shuts off. Then it slowly climbs back up to 204 f..where the low speed fan kicks in again. The cycle just repeats. ( this is idling in the driveway). On the sct-x3, you can set the hi + lo speed fans to anything you want. You can even set the high speed fan threshold to a lower temp than the low speed fan.
 

olds350

forum member
Joined
Aug 11, 2010
Posts
76
Reaction score
0
Not sure if this will help, but I had a similar issue a few months ago. I'm running a VDO temp gauge that taps directly into the block, so the temp reading is fairly accurate.

Sitting in traffic, I watched my VDO gauge creep up to 230 and I started to get concerned and looking for a place to pull over. All of a sudden I heard the fan kick on and it dropped to 190, but slowly started back up again. During this time, the stock gauge never moved. As far as I could figure, the low speed fan was not kicking on.

I'll keep this story short, but I ended up replacing the t-stat, a relay and the factory sending unit in the head. I also chased and confirmed all the wiring had good continuity. Could not chase down the issue and confirm an issue. Most of my pointers were looking like a bad computer.

Someone suggested an aftermarket tune just for grins. Thought this was pretty pointless test, but what the heck. Uploaded a basic 89 tune. Well, the low speed fan started to work after the tune upload. Makes no sense, but I could adjust the low/high speed fan variables and all worked.

I reinstalled the stock tune and the low speed fan failed. Temps started working back up to 230. I'll note here that if the AC was on, the low speed fan worked.

I reinstalled the 89 tune and now the fan works again. I hate running this tune due to the way the throttle feels, hate an on/off switch, but right now it's my only option.

Not sure if others have had this issue or if this helps, but that's my 1 off story. BTW, the car is a '08 bullitt w/ a stock drive train.
 

Wes06

forum member
Joined
Jan 21, 2012
Posts
5,383
Reaction score
59
who's tune?

maybe talk to them to modify it, or get a Lito tune
 

retfr8flyr

The Old One
S197 Team Member
Joined
Apr 7, 2007
Posts
7,193
Reaction score
108
Location
Providence Forge, VA
Turn your AC on while idling and the fan should automatically go to high speed. That's the easiest way to check the fan and yes, the cooling system is very prone to air pockets.
 

csracing

forum member
Joined
May 17, 2010
Posts
318
Reaction score
0
Location
SE Wisconsin
fans are working. I'm tuning with HP tuners and have all the fan speeds set appropriately. I'm running underdrive pulleys and suspect I'm just not moving the water fast enough. The lower radiator hose is cool compared to the upper hose, so the radiator and fan are doing their job. The heat rejection on this engine is almost certainly higher with the displacement and compression increases. I received a stock diameter water pump pulley today that will turn the pump faster but it will be later in the week before I can install it and find a correct length belt. I'll report my findings.
 

Pentalab

forum member
Joined
Mar 5, 2013
Posts
5,216
Reaction score
1,104
fans are working. I'm tuning with HP tuners and have all the fan speeds set appropriately. I'm running underdrive pulleys and suspect I'm just not moving the water fast enough. The lower radiator hose is cool compared to the upper hose, so the radiator and fan are doing their job. The heat rejection on this engine is almost certainly higher with the displacement and compression increases. I received a STOCK diameter water pump pulley today that will turn the pump faster but it will be later in the week before I can install it and find a correct length belt. I'll report my findings.

If a UD pulley used..then the water pump pulley has to be smaller diam than oem to compensate. Did you vac fill the rad etc ? Get any air in there and you will have problems with heat.
 
Last edited:

csracing

forum member
Joined
May 17, 2010
Posts
318
Reaction score
0
Location
SE Wisconsin
I'm going to speed the pump up and see if there's improvement. I'll likely go electric but want to see if the increased speed helps.

I have put 10psi of vacuum on the system and have several hours of runtime on it now. I'd like to hope I have any remaining air worked out.
 

csracing

forum member
Joined
May 17, 2010
Posts
318
Reaction score
0
Location
SE Wisconsin
I have this sorted out. This is a long read, but might help someone in the future.

I had to replace my radiator because I accidentally used a bolt that was too long to hold the fan shroud to the radiator. In doing so, I drove said screw through the left side tank. I had initially thought that my high coolant temp issue arrived with the radiator change. Further scrutinisation of my data logs prior to the radiator replacement proved that wrong. So I started digging into why the new engine build was running about 30 degrees hotter than the original setup.

First of all, the list of things I tried:
Replaced the thermostat (no change)
Sped up the water pump by putting a smaller drive pulley on it (no change)
Put vacuum on the cooling system in an effort to ensure I don't have a pocket of air somewhere (no change)
Replaced the cylinder head temp sensor (no change)

From here I decided to install an electric coolant temp gauge. I put the sender in the coolant crossover on the engine side of the thermostat so I got a true engine temperature reading regardless of thermostat position. I was able to confirm that I had about a 30 degree temperature delta between actual coolant temperature and reported coolant temp at the ECU.

Some quick background information:
As you may (or may not know), the ECU uses a cylinder head temperature sender (CHT) rather than a conventional coolant temp sensor. The calculations in the tune are based on coolant temperature data but this coolant temp is an inferred value based from the CHT sensor input.

I milled 0.040" off my cylinder heads to arrive at a specific combustion chamber volume. In doing that, it moves the CHT sensor closer to the deck surface. I have a larger than stock bore diameter as well, so more surface area of the bottom of the head is exposed to the combustion heat. There is also less mass around the CHT sensor to pull heat away. So the net in all of this is that the CHT sensor was reporting data to the ECU that in turn was converting to coolant temps that ran around 215 degrees in cruise condition and north of 230 degrees under load.

The CHT data is not wrong. The cylinder head is in fact running hotter but since there is no actual coolant temp sensor, the reported coolant temp goes up as well. I'm running a high compression, large bore engine so it is logical that there would be more heat rejection. Anyway, there are many scalars and offsets based on coolant temp. As you can imagine, 230 degree coolant temp is where the ECU starts going into "protect myself" mode. Rather than go through all the tables that relate to coolant temp and change the values to say 230 degrees was ok, I decided to offset the resistance value of the CHT sensor.

I put the CHT sensor in water and measured the resistance across the pins ever 5 degrees from ~80 to boiling. This creates a temperature to resistance curve that can be plotted in Excel. From there, you can use an exponential curve fit in Excel to extrapolate data beyond measured data. Temperature measuring sensors typically have inverted curves, meaning that as the temperature goes up, the resistance goes down. After studying my resistance curve, I determined that a 1K resistor should give me an appropriate offset value. I cut one of the 2 wires for the CHT sensor and added the 1K resistor in series.

Subsequent testing this morning has proven that my estimation is pretty close. I'm reading about 6 degrees cooler at the ECU than at the actual gauge. That's close enough for me so I don't plan on further refining anything.

So, for the vast majority of the 3V world, this will never be an issue as most don't build big bore engines. But for anyone that is running a big bore engine with milled heads and a lot of compression, this may be something to keep in mind if you have high coolant temp issues.

CSR
 
Last edited:

Latest posts

Support us!

Support Us - Become A Supporting Member Today!

Click Here For Details

Sponsor Links

Banner image
Back
Top