Watts Link for improved street manners

Vapour Trails

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I wanted to initiate a conversation about the benefits (or lack thereof) of a Watts Link in daily driving situations at regular speeds. What is your experience?

My city has abysmal roads because of harsh winter weather and lack of money to properly repair them.

One of the things I dislike about my Mustang is the skittish feeling in the rear end when travelling over the many bumps, dips, frost heaves, ruts, etc. This is the case even when I'm not pushing the car hard at all.

I would like something to add more stability, confidence and allow power to be put down more efficiently. Would a Watts link make much difference in regular driving?

I currently have steeda sport springs, steeda front & rear sway bars, tokico d-specs and aftermarket LCA (can't remember which). Also, about -1.7 camber and NT05 275/40/18 at each corner.

Overall, I think my suspension changes have made the car feel less stable on bad roads that the car was completely stock and the ride quality is atrocious (even my 4 year old noticed and commented).
 

BMR Tech

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I forced Dylan to put one of ours on his car shortly after he started to work here at BMR. I twisted his arm, hard.

Maybe he can chime in. I think he was more than impressed with using it for street duty.
 

BMR Tech 2

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In my opinion, a Watts link will dramatically change how the car feels and responds on the street.

I installed one on my personal car right after we released them. I wasn't expecting such a dramatic difference in stability and how much more planted the axle feels. Over rough roads, it doesn't feel as much like a covered wagon as it used to. The axle takes rough roads in stride and doesn't get near as upset by uneven surfaces.

When ripping through around corners and sweeping on ramps, the car doesn't feel like it wants to come out from under you. You point the wheel, the axle stays planted, and the car just goes. I feel like I'm repeating myself a lot here, but it's hard to convey how much of a difference the Watts makes unless you can take the person for a ride or let them drive. I never, ever want to go back to a panhard set up on this car.

Being able to adjust the roll center also has a dramatic affect on the balance and steering characteristics of the car. You can move your pivot up and down in a few minutes and make the car feel totally different. It adds a completely new level to the dynamic of the vehicle, and I absolutely love it.
 

01yellerCobra

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In my opinion, a Watts link will dramatically change how the car feels and responds on the street.

I installed one on my personal car right after we released them. I wasn't expecting such a dramatic difference in stability and how much more planted the axle feels. Over rough roads, it doesn't feel as much like a covered wagon as it used to. The axle takes rough roads in stride and doesn't get near as upset by uneven surfaces.

When ripping through around corners and sweeping on ramps, the car doesn't feel like it wants to come out from under you. You point the wheel, the axle stays planted, and the car just goes. I feel like I'm repeating myself a lot here, but it's hard to convey how much of a difference the Watts makes unless you can take the person for a ride or let them drive. I never, ever want to go back to a panhard set up on this car.

Being able to adjust the roll center also has a dramatic affect on the balance and steering characteristics of the car. You can move your pivot up and down in a few minutes and make the car feel totally different. It adds a completely new level to the dynamic of the vehicle, and I absolutely love it.

Your post sounds like the Watts Link is great for turning fast. But it seems the OP is having more of an issue with bounce and rebound. Which IMO would be a shock and spring issue.
 

Sky Render

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Your post sounds like the Watts Link is great for turning fast. But it seems the OP is having more of an issue with bounce and rebound. Which IMO would be a shock and spring issue.
Exactly.

I've never heard good things about Tokico shocks.

Sent from my Samsung Galaxy Note 4 using Tapatalk
 

Mark Aubele

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I noticed my car became much more stable after the watts install as well (from a rod ended panhard). We have pretty terrible roads here in pittsburgh and the car is definitely more stable mid corner when hitting bumps.

But like a couple others touched on, if your car rides that poorly on those crazy soft Steeda springs, I would be looking into a set of Koni yellows or Bilsteins before the Watts.
 

Pentalab

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The D specs have simultaneous compression + rebound adjustments. Koni yellows are rebound only. Bilsteins are non adjustable.

OP, where have you got the D specs adjusted ? Does it still ride like crap when struts /shocks tweaked to full soft ?
 

Speedboosted

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OP might need less rear bar, and/or better dampers. I think good watts links have a huge advantage on the street over the pan hard as you encounter a lot more uneven surfaces on the street than you do at the track. I know that's not the only purpose of the watts, but that will be what is most noticeable for the application at hand.
 

Lucky_13

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I'd work with what you have first before spending any money.

What are your dampers set at, and what position is your rear bar on (if you have the adjustable one)?
 

TGR96

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I have Tokico D-specs, and I love them, no complaints whatsoever. FWIW, the car is daily driven, and sees a few auto-x events and track days a year. Yes, there are better dampers out there, but they cost a lot more than what I spent on my Tokicos. I'm not out trying to win Daytona with my car, so I don't need a set of $2000 + dampers on my DD.

As far as the WL goes, I installed one of BMR's on my car a few months ago. It's a well built piece, and it certainly helps on track, but for DDing, I can honestly say, the difference is negligible.

You can either have a car built for comfort, or speed, but like many things in life, it's all a compromise.
 

BMR Tech 2

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Your post sounds like the Watts Link is great for turning fast. But it seems the OP is having more of an issue with bounce and rebound. Which IMO would be a shock and spring issue.

The WL is great for uneven surfaces as well. The rear end is much more planted and stable feeling over rough roads, railroad tracks, etc... It really helps to not have 300 lbs of axle swinging around like a pendulum under the car. I'm not saying this will cure the OPs rough ride, but on my personal car I noticed a huge improvement on the street.
 

Gabe

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The WL is great for uneven surfaces as well. The rear end is much more planted and stable feeling over rough roads, railroad tracks, etc... It really helps to not have 300 lbs of axle swinging around like a pendulum under the car. I'm not saying this will cure the OPs rough ride, but on my personal car I noticed a huge improvement on the street.

I noticed exactly that ^^^ yesterday on a long cruise. Hit some very bumpy roads and I noticed the rear end much more controlled now with the watts link back there.
And when the on ramps or off ramps come around, bring on the fun! :)
 

CobraRed

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I noticed an improvement in road manners with the Watts

I'd call it just significant enough to note
 

noldevin

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Most of my friends who have gone the WL route are street-only drivers, and they noticed an immediate and obvious improvement in how the car feels and handles on the street. I plan on adding one to my build but I have other things to check off the list first.
As others have said, the effects will be most apparent while turning and hitting bumps, but it should help with stability across the board.

However, it sounds more like you're having shock issues. I believe the D-specs are adjustable, so consider softening the rear shocks. While playing with shock settings, I've noticed stiffening the rear affects ride quality MUCH more than stiffening the fronts. I run my konis a lot softer in the rear.
 

SoundGuyDave

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Getting back to the OPs original intent, which was a "discussion about the benefits (or lack thereof) of a Watts Link in daily driving situations at regular speeds."

Point 1: Under "normal" conditions, the car does NOT "have 300 lbs of axle swinging around like a pendulum under the car" as Dylan posits. Do the math. Simple Pythagorean Theorum will tell you that with a compression/rebound cycle of 1" or so from static ride-height, the axle will only move laterally a handful of thousandths of an inch. If you compare that to what you get from bushing deflection or tire carcass and tread block squirm, and you have the axle motion lost in the noise.

Point 2: No matter what, to get a "proper" ride quality, you need to have dampers that are matched to the springs. The Steeda noodles are simply WAY too soft for the lowering they provide, and yes, the Tokico dampers are crap. I BROKE one of them internally after a year of light-duty tracking (novice/intermediate skill level, not curb hopping), and the warranty was to send them in, wait six to eight weeks for processing, then receive the replacements. Not going to happen. The shaft had side-to-side play of over 1/4" at the strut mount.

Point 3: The complaint was that the car was "nervous" over railroad tracks. I would be seriously surprised if the OP was taking them with high-speed, high-latG loading, so that essentially eliminates axle movement, bushing and tire deflection from the equation. The Steeda springs are soooo soft, though, that it wouldn't surprise me to find that the car was hitting the bump-stops in back, which transitions to an infinite spring rate pretty abruptly. Combine that with mis-matched dampers, and you have the recipe for a hot mess.

My recommendation would be to get some proper springs under the car, with dampers that are properly matched to the spring rates. This doesn't mean high-rate springs with triple-adjustable Sachs dampers, either. You need to do the math. Stock springs have a given rate. That rate, multiplied by the compression range (from static to fully compressed) will give you a load rating. Now, take the new spring set, with a desired "lowering" value, and subtract that from the compression range. Now, divide the load rating by the new compression range, and that will give you the spring rate that you need to maintain the same net load capability of the car. Finally, go shopping and find the springs that come closest to your target drop and rate numbers. Then, find the dampers that are "tuned" for that spring rate, and you're done.

Swapping to a Watts link, or a Watts/TA combo, or a Satchell, or DeDion, or whatever isn't going to cure the basic issue, which is far too soft of a spring in combination with mismatched damping curves.

This is why proper race-car engineering starts with the tires... Then you get the springs and dampers you need to support the tire contact patch, and then the geometry to manage it all dynamically.
 

Candy10

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Awesome info, as always Dave.

Should we assume (or not, LOL) that the suspension kits offered by various manufacturers practice matching springs and dampers? Wouldn't adjustable dampers be compatible with most springs? As you can "tune" them to the spring rate?
 

BMR Tech

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Great posts in here.

To touch on some things, Dylan was simply answering the questions the OP asked. Reading the replies in here, I think the "topic" has veered slightly....but Dylan's responses were directly related to the questions in the first post. Is the suspension a system? Absolutely.

Dave made a very good point. The Steeda rear springs if I recall, are mostly all just Hypercoil C/O springs that vary from around 170 to 190lbs/inch. This is definitely soft and they are low enough to cause interrupted suspension oscillation (bump stop contact, shock travel interruption) - and should be looked into. Very common occurrence.

He also made the comment about the PHR and it's movement through the arc / travel range - which is a very good and legitimate point. The issue is that amount of calculated movement, plus the mentioned deflection, plus the additional fore/aft force that has not been mentioned and then the position of the RC - all culminates.

What people often forget is that the PHR also affects thrust angle. Thrust angle affects steer...and also plays a factor in how the car acts during roll, based on how it is affected by the geometry of the PHR.

Since we are being technical here, this culmination just keeps on getting amplified. You now have lateral axle shift, that affects thrust angle, that affects steer, that affects grip, that affects bushing operation and binding and on and on and on.

What I have found to be true is. All of this suspension talk, is almost ALWAYS - even if not mentioned, based around suspension travel amount, grip and dampening.
 

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