DusterRT
Defected to Deutsche
Below is an email exchange between an individual and a Mustang Challenge technical manager (original post dated 2008, names withheld by request, I've 'adjusted' a few things to make it easier to follow). I'm re-posting this from another forum as I feel there is a lot of good information here straight from the people who know our cars best!
"Part 1" is the email sent, and "Part 2" is the response from a Ford Engineer. The response isn't point-by-point as the questions are asked, but pretty much everything is addressed.
PART 1:
"Part 1" is the email sent, and "Part 2" is the response from a Ford Engineer. The response isn't point-by-point as the questions are asked, but pretty much everything is addressed.
PART 1:
PART 2:Mr. *****,
I spoke with you briefly earlier today. I really don't know anything as I'm not an engineer only what I have read......Please forward.
I own a 2006 Mustang GT the car is used primarily at open track events STVOA, HPDE, etc. The car is equipped with brake cooling ducts, braided stainless steel brake line (Goodrich), I run Brembo or Motul high temp brake fluid, and has Hawk HP Plus brake pads. I always bleed the system before events and bed in the pads and rotors when they are replaced. During my last event I experienced brake fade I believe it was related to the pads because of there temperature rating. I'm planning on using Carbontech XP12 front and XP10s for the rear during the next event. I want to step up to sticky tires and I believe the stock rotors/calipers are marginal for the way I'm using my car and I'm looking to possibly upgrade the brake system based on your recommendations. I'm leery of going to the aftermarket because I believe they primarily focus on "bling".
1. Mustang Challenge FR500S brake set up: Front Brake Kit M-2300-J with two piece rotors, the rear calipers are listed as GT500 parts (RH Rear 7R3Z-2552-A and LH Rear 7R3Z-2553-A) I though they were Mustang GT parts. The rear rotors are listed as Mustang GT parts. They also list the GT500 Master Cylinder (6R3Z-2140-AA) and GT 500 Brake Booster (7R3Z-2005-A) along with a different ABS Module (M-2353-A).
a. Is the GT500 Master Cylinder/Brake Booster required? Why does the 2005-2007 Musatng 14" Brake Upgrade kit not have this? I've heard it has less boost ratio than the GT/V6 booster. Will the GT Booster make the brakes grabby, or have too much initial bite?
b. Is the ABS Module this is specific to the FR500S or the GT500? If this is the GT500 module will it work with the GT or will the ECU default to the V6 program?
c. These 4 piston calipers. Right?
d. Also listed are different hubs for the FR500S different/better bearings?
2. Mustang FR500C "Boy Racer" Brake set up: Front Brake Kit M-2300-A; two piece rotors? They list a rotor hat M-1124-R, but not the rotors, is the FR500C Front Brake Caliper Bracket M-2134-R part of the kit? They also list a different Brake Master/Booster Assembly M-2005-R.
a. Over kill for me? Will this even work? Does this kit use a adapter to bolt up to the spindle?
b. Does this require different ABS module/HUC and does this require a different ECU and this would not work be because of the different engines?
3. 14" Brake Upgrade Kit 2005-08 Mustang GT setup: M-2300-S from the FORD Racing Catalog "Will upgrade the front brakes to 2007-08 SVT Musang 14" rotors and 4-piston calipers". Has one piece rotors.
a. Is the GT500 Master Cylinder/Brake Booster required? Why or why not? I've heard it has less boost ratio than the GT/V6 booster.
Will the GT Booster make the brakes grabby, or have too much initial bite? Line pressure problems?
b. Can the M-2300-S be upgraded with two piece rotors?
What is the weight of the Mustang GT one piece, GT500 one piece? I don't really like the idea of adding a lot of extra rotating mass.
Recommendations?
Thanks,
**** ******
Hey ****, answers to your questions:
The stock Mustang GT front calipers and rotors are definitely marginal for track use, and as you add sticky tires it will just make it worse. The pad upgrade is certainly a step in the right direction, but eventually you will need to upgrade the hardware for serious track use. There are a few choices for upgrades; all the different part numbers can be a little confusing so here's the rundown:
Rear brakes:
This is the easy part. They are (functionally) all the same for V6, GT,GT500, FR500S and FR500C. The GT500 caliper is painted black instead of plated silver like the V6/GT, which explains the different part number, and that happens to be the one that we used on the FR500S.
Front brakes:
The first step up is the M-2300-S (GT500) brakes. This is a 4-piston Brembo caliper on a 1-piece, non-directional rotor. We don't have a 2-piece rotor for this setup. This is a huge step up from the GT brakes, and will work well for what you are currently doing with the car. It's the least expensive route, but it is also the heaviest. It is also the most "street friendly" setup, as the 1-pc, non-slotted rotor is going to work the best when you are not on the track, as far as not eating up pads, making dust, noise, etc.
The next step up is the FR500S/C brakes. It's a bit confusing with all the part numbers; both setups are essentially identical, in that they use the same Brembo 4-piston "F50" caliper and 355mm rotor (2-pc with aluminum hat, slotted, directional vanes). The only major differences between the kits are that the hat and caliper mounting bracket for the FR500C are manufactured by Multimatic, while the FR500S hat and caliper bracket are manufactured by Brembo, and are less expensive (higher volume parts). There are some other differences between the -A and -J kits; the -J kit has a 4-pc Goodridge brake line set that is a direct-fit onto a production Mustang, while the -A kit has more generic front brake lines that are used on the C and require some bracket modifications. No performance difference. If you were interested in going this route, the -J kit is the way to go. This kit is certainly an upgrade over the -S kit; you get a better caliper that has more pad selection (it's a very common caliper and everyone makes pads for it), and a better rotor (the directional vanes cool better and the 2-pc design is lighter and puts less stress on the rotor when it expands from heat), but it is also more expensive and the replacement parts such as rotors cost more.
For either setup you will need to make sure you have wheels that will fit. The 18x9.5 Cobra (GT500) wheels will clear either one; there is also a 18x8.5 GT wheel (the "fan blade", not the Bullitt) that will fit over the race brakes but not the GT500 brakes.
Boosters:
Any of the boosters will work. The GT booster is a constant-gain booster; the FR500S/Cobra have a variable-gain booster; the FR500C has a specific race tuned, low-assist booster that is designed around race pads. While the FR500C booster is the best one for the track, it is expensive and has heavy pedal efforts when used with street brake pads. We didn't use it on the FR500S to keep costs down. I'd stick with what you have; you can always change it later if you feel the need.
ABS:
This is the hard part. The GT ABS module will limit your braking ability, in that it won't allow you to achieve the deceleration rates that the race modules will. Braking won't be worse then your current situation, but you won't be able to take full advantage of the sticky tires. The problem with the race modules is that they won't work well on the street with street pads (but are fantastic on sticky tires!). The GT500 setup is a good compromise, but then you'll lose your traction control. Once I understand a little better how you use the car I can help you decide which parts to use.
Hubs:
The only difference in the FR500S hubs is that we use an ARP 3" wheelstud in place of the stock studs.
The best choice really comes down to what you are doing with the car (is it still a dual-purpose street/track car, or primarily a track car?), and what you want to spend.
For a dual-purpose car, and lower cost, I'd go with:
-M-2300-S GT500 Brake Kit
-GT500 ABS (need the ECU and HCU, and you'll lose traction control)
-Stock GT booster (and after you've driven it decide if you want to make a change from there)
For an all-out track car, at more expense:
-M-2300-J FR500S Brake Kit
-FR500S ABS (requires you to swap to a GT500 HCU, and use the M-2353-A ECU)
-FR500C Booster (optional)
Hope this helps.
**** ****
Ford Racing Performance Parts
