2011 shifter from mgw close to completion...some specs and info>>

hey guys,

just wanted to let you guys in on some info as i am getting close to finalizing the testing and design of our 2011 shifter.

first... the THROW....

as you guys know that have your cars already the new stock tranny is kinda odd in that the side to side travel is VERY short while the front to back is not as short as it should be but close....

this is just the way it was designed sooo...i originally designed the shifter much like our corvette shifters to have a double pinion design rather than a pivot ball to shorten the throw front to back and not side to side...i was shooting for about 30-35 percent reduction in throw....

NOT A GOOD IDEA...

apparently the new tranny that ford is using is not as robust as the TREMEC was and we have found that anything more than about 15-20 percent reduction in throw is going to have issues with lockout and also wear on the synchros of this transmission. i have been testing and researching this transmission for a LONNGGGG time and talked with various engineers on this project so i am VERY firm on my opinion of this.

after trying countless combinations of shifting throws i decided that to be honest the THROW of the oem unit is not that bad and actually for both roadcourse and drag racing the effort is pretty spot on...

BUT.where the factory unit falls flat on its face is DEFLECTION!!! it is HORRIBLE!!! the stock box UNDER the shifter has to be replaced and the rear support bracket is a joke!!! it has zip ties around a rubber mount for petes sake!!!


so in the end what i am designing is going to be basically a 15-20 percent reduction with ADDITIONAL spring back to neutral for the drag racers out there. with a COMPLETE replacement to the entire unit under the boot.

so if you guys are hung up on a super short throw then you might want to look elsewhere BUT i can assure you the shifting will be faster with our setup


stay tuned for more info and pics around the holiday break!!

george

Estimated price range?

Can't wait till you guys get this on the market.

Glad you always make the shifter better all around not just shorter.

VTXFrank said:

Estimated price range?

Can't wait till you guys get this on the market.

Click to expand...

price range im thinking is going to be in the same range as our gt500 and camaro shifters. 350...

george

Can you please elaborate how a shorter throw will = syncro wear?

Engineers drive trains, im all for a real world answer.

Thanks.

Great info.

Awesome! Finally, some news on the MGW shifter for my 2011 Mustang!

So, will the MGW shifter eliminate the god awful 1-2 shift I often experience? The only way I've found to eliminate it thus far is to almost floor the accelerator when taking off from a complete stop. This shouldn't be necessary in a brand-new car, IMO. In fact, it's my only complaint with my 2011 Mustang GT.

RectalRampage said:

Can you please elaborate how a shorter throw will = syncro wear?

Engineers drive trains, im all for a real world answer.

Thanks.

Click to expand...

lol...

the synchros in a tranny are basically what allows the gears to fluidly engage from the speed of one gear to the next ...some use cones some use a slider type design. the best synchros will allow very fast shifts and short engagements. less than stellar synchro designs will often cause grinding if forced faster than they were designed to handle. when a tranny is designed the shifter is usually designed with this in mind. not only is effort of shifting a factor in determining the oem shifter throw but also how well the tranny itself is built and designed to the task.

basically if transmissions were perfectly designed we would all have 90 percent reduction short shifters and changing gears like an F1 in a Ferrari . it cant happen .

i have put thousands of miles on this transmission and have found that the tranny can only shift so fast and so short of an engagment with the combination of the synchros, clutch design and engine pcm settings.

yes we can make it a bit shorter but in my opinion the shifter needs to be more precise way before the throw is changed.


george

MARZ said:

Awesome! Finally, some news on the MGW shifter for my 2011 Mustang!

So, will the MGW shifter eliminate the god awful 1-2 shift I often experience? The only way I've found to eliminate it thus far is to almost floor the accelerator when taking off from a complete stop. This shouldn't be necessary in a brand-new car, IMO. In fact, it's my only complaint with my 2011 Mustang GT.

Click to expand...

im not sure what you mean by this as the 1-2 shift is not an issue i have found. my main bitch is the 4-5 shift and the 2-3 shift where you have to move the shifter side to side as well as front to back. but yes in my opinion ANY vagueness or defelction in the shifter will be GREATLY reduced with this design

i know you guys need more substance but just be patient and as always if you are not convinced just be patient and wait until some unbiased reviews come in first part of 2011

george

MGW said:

im not sure what you mean by this as the 1-2 shift is not an issue i have found. my main bitch is the 4-5 shift and the 2-3 shift where you have to move the shifter side to side as well as front to back. but yes in my opinion ANY vagueness or defelction in the shifter will be GREATLY reduced with this design

i know you guys need more substance but just be patient and as always if you are not convinced just be patient and wait until some unbiased reviews come in first part of 2011

george

Click to expand...

Would you agree that the tranny/clutch design in these cars is an epic FAIL on Ford's part. The clutches are made in Turkey and the tranny's in China. With all the problems folks are having it just seems like Ford has really let us down with this combo.

MGW said:

lol...

the synchros in a tranny are basically what allows the gears to fluidly engage from the speed of one gear to the next ...some use cones some use a slider type design. the best synchros will allow very fast shifts and short engagements. less than stellar synchro designs will often cause grinding if forced faster than they were designed to handle. when a tranny is designed the shifter is usually designed with this in mind. not only is effort of shifting a factor in determining the oem shifter throw but also how well the tranny itself is built and designed to the task.

basically if transmissions were perfectly designed we would all have 90 percent reduction short shifters and changing gears like an F1 in a Ferrari . it cant happen .

i have put thousands of miles on this transmission and have found that the tranny can only shift so fast and so short of an engagment with the combination of the synchros, clutch design and engine pcm settings.

yes we can make it a bit shorter but in my opinion the shifter needs to be more precise way before the throw is changed.


george

Click to expand...

I understand how a manual transmission works; my question was more directly asking how a shifter with a dual pivot point and shorter throw (greater then 20%) is going to wear out the synchros any faster?

Do you know what Getrag transmission the MT82 is officially based off of?

Out of curiosity (if you know) how many synchros are on 1st and 2nd gears (im assuming triple cone on the 1, 2, and double on the 3,4)?

Doesn't a shorter throw decrease leverage on the synchros (since it requires more of an applied effort on the drivers behalf to shift)?

What im saying is... A shifter with a longer throw will easily apply more force over that of a shorter one.

Lets say it takes 15 lbs of pressure to shift into gear.... Then lets say (as you mentioned) the stock shifter is designed to apply this 15 lbs of force easily with its OEM throw.

You now shorten the throw but notice it takes more work on your behalf (the driver) to shift into gear. If the short throw shifter is now only applying 7 lbs of force, its up to you (the driver) to give it the extra 8 lbs of force needed to engage a synchro in the first place.

In regards to this statement: "I can assure you the shifting will be faster with our setup"

If a shift will be faster with your setup then that of one with a shifter that has a shorter throw, the issue i take it isn't engaging gears too quickly either?


So where does the extra wear on the synchros come into play after 20% if not force or speed related?

Wouldn't a dual pivot point at the very least allow less crowding of the gateways due to the side to side shift throw vs. front to back?

BAKnBLK2010 said:

Would you agree that the tranny/clutch design in these cars is an epic FAIL on Ford's part. The clutches are made in Turkey and the tranny's in China. With all the problems folks are having it just seems like Ford has really let us down with this combo.

Click to expand...

Not entirely. The clutch has some obvious issues, but the transmission has held up fine in cars with a lot more power.

RectalRampage said:

I understand how a manual transmission works; my question was more directly asking how a shifter with a dual pivot point and shorter throw (greater then 20%) is going to wear out the synchros any faster?

Do you know what Getrag transmission the MT82 is officially based off of?

Out of curiosity (if you know) how many synchros are on 1st and 2nd gears (im assuming triple cone on the 1, 2, and double on the 3,4)?

Doesn't a shorter throw decrease leverage on the synchros (since it requires more of an applied effort on the drivers behalf to shift)?

What im saying is... A shifter with a longer throw will easily apply more force over that of a shorter one.

Lets say it takes 15 lbs of pressure to shift into gear.... Then lets say (as you mentioned) the stock shifter is designed to apply this 15 lbs of force easily with its OEM throw.

You now shorten the throw but notice it takes more work on your behalf (the driver) to shift into gear. If the short throw shifter is now only applying 7 lbs of force, its up to you (the driver) to give it the extra 8 lbs of force needed to engage a synchro in the first place.

In regards to this statement: "I can assure you the shifting will be faster with our setup"

If a shift will be faster with your setup then that of one with a shifter that has a shorter throw, the issue i take it isn't engaging gears too quickly either?


So where does the extra wear on the synchros come into play after 20% if not force or speed related?

Wouldn't a dual pivot point at the very least allow less crowding of the gateways due to the side to side shift throw vs. front to back?

Click to expand...

Your basic assumption is correct but what you are leaving out is that the force needed to shift gears is not near the average arm strength of the driver. so the added force required is not really a factor. if say the max force a driver could put on the shifter reemained constant then yes it would make sense that the shorter throw would indded be EASIER on the synchros. but the driver is fully capable of applying the added force needed to make the shift and with the pivot point raised he is moving the lower portion alot faster.

when i say that my shifter will shift faster i am really referring to the combination of...

more precise less deflection on gears allowing faster " consistent" gear changes .

smoother operation and less force needed due to a reduced throw reduction. (* yes a double negative lol )

what i am basically saying is i am going for the best shifter design for road racing, street driving and drag racing.

i am more interested in a shifter that allows 90 percent perfect shifts 99 percent of the time than 100 percent fast shifts 70 percent of the time.

will a shorter throw make an aggressive driver shift faster...maybe...but not for long.

george

George:

Great, I've been waiting to hear if MGW was coming out with a shifter for the '11.

Are there any plans to offer an extended handle for road racers that want to get the shifter closer to the steering wheel?

Anyhow, in for pictures and pricing.

Hey George, I asked in your forum, bit I'll ask here as well...

If you had to give a very rough estimate as to when we could expect these in our hands, when would it be.

Are we talking end of '11, mid year, early year?

I understand you haven't even finalized the design, I'm just wondering if I should hold off on installing my other shifter. I already ordered it before you made this announcement.

MGW said:

Your basic assumption is correct but what you are leaving out is that the force needed to shift gears is not near the average arm strength of the driver. so the added force required is not really a factor. if say the max force a driver could put on the shifter reemained constant then yes it would make sense that the shorter throw would indded be EASIER on the synchros. but the driver is fully capable of applying the added force needed to make the shift and with the pivot point raised he is moving the lower portion alot faster.

so dont slam gears with a shorter shifter = easier on syncrhos?

when i say that my shifter will shift faster i am really referring to the combination of...

more precise less deflection on gears allowing faster " consistent" gear changes .

smoother operation and less force needed due to a reduced throw reduction. (* yes a double negative lol )

what i am basically saying is i am going for the best shifter design for road racing, street driving and drag racing.

i am more interested in a shifter that allows 90 percent perfect shifts 99 percent of the time than 100 percent fast shifts 70 percent of the time.

will a shorter throw make an aggressive driver shift faster...maybe...but not for long.

george

Click to expand...

OK but do you know the answers to my above questions? I keep asking you this over and over (I don't mean to sound like a broken record). It seems that you have spent a lot of time researching this transmission, id like to know myself what we are actually dealing with.

What Getrag transmission is the MT82 based off of?

What is the synchro setup on 1st 2nd & 3rd and 4th?

What makes the synchros in this transmission less durable then tremecs? What failures have been found based on your tests while using a shifter with greater then 20% throw reduction?

I like your deflection alternative.

Thanks George

RectalRampage said:

OK but do you know the answers to my above questions? I keep asking you this over and over (I don't mean to sound like a broken record). It seems that you have spent a lot of time researching this transmission, id like to know myself what we are actually dealing with.

What Getrag transmission is the MT82 based off of?

What is the synchro setup on 1st 2nd & 3rd and 4th?

What makes the synchros in this transmission less durable then tremecs? What failures have been found based on your tests while using a shifter with greater then 20% throw reduction?

I like your deflection alternative.

Thanks George

Click to expand...

do uk the answer to question your asking him? Ik the mt82 has been in service in range rovers for many years

If I knew the answers to those questions, i wouldn't ask them lol.

I am very curious to know though, its definitely some valuable information if MGW has experienced an internal failure on our transmission already.

Or if they haven't... They seem to know what makes this transmission not as strong as the tremec.

RectalRampage said:

OK but do you know the answers to my above questions? I keep asking you this over and over (I don't mean to sound like a broken record). It seems that you have spent a lot of time researching this transmission, id like to know myself what we are actually dealing with.

What Getrag transmission is the MT82 based off of?

What is the synchro setup on 1st 2nd & 3rd and 4th?

What makes the synchros in this transmission less durable then tremecs? What failures have been found based on your tests while using a shifter with greater then 20% throw reduction?

I like your deflection alternative.

Thanks George

Click to expand...

from my sources i have been told it is VERY close to the
6MTI520 TRANSMISSION


HERE ARE THE SPECS ON THE TRANSMISSION...

Max. Torque Capacity 520 Nm Weight (dry) 53 kg Installation length 682 mm Synchronization 1st and 2nd gear triple cone 3rd and 4th gear dual cone 5th and 6th gear single cone Reverse gear single cone.



all i can tell you is that i have put about 10000 miles on this transmission using the stock unit for about 3000...and about 10 different designs of throw and pivot mechanisms for the other 7k plus.

the shifter WILL grind second gear ( sometimes 3rd) if the throw is too short. i have been driving manuals and road racing everything from lotuses, vipers, corvettes, porsche gt3's etc. for over 20 years and i design ALL the shifters MGW makes personally and i am just telling you what i have personally found to be the case.

the Tremec is not immune to these issues either esp in the tr6060 6 speed. but that is why we never go over 33 percent reduction in our fixed throw designs. you just cant go too short without issues popping up.

has it failed internally on me...NO!! but i consider grinding gears on a constant basis a def. design failure.


george

S197 GT said:

Hey George, I asked in your forum, bit I'll ask here as well...

If you had to give a very rough estimate as to when we could expect these in our hands, when would it be.

Are we talking end of '11, mid year, early year?

I understand you haven't even finalized the design, I'm just wondering if I should hold off on installing my other shifter. I already ordered it before you made this announcement.

Click to expand...

i actually am finished my design now and testing . i will hopefully be ready to ship units end of january.

george