Whiteline Watts Link and Rear Sway Bar

neema

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Whiskey11

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Anyone running any of these parts? The relocated rear sway bar mounts look beneficial for those stuffing wider wheels and tires in the back, but it looks like they run a solid 27mm bar out there... sounds heavy.

http://www.motoiq.com/magazine_arti...formance-watts-linkage-for-ford-mustangs.aspx


i wonder how their watts link really differs from a cortex or griggs unit (if you can even get the griggs anymore).


http://www.cortexracing.com/shop/xtreme-grip-watts-link-system-street-2005/

Terry Fair (Screen name Fair) has these on their ESP Mustang and Vorshlag where he works is a Whiteline dealer. It is worth PMing him for those questions.
 

neema

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good point. i remember first reading about whiteline hardware on terry's mustang, but it was a quick post he made before making way to solo nationals.

another thing i've heard is the rear sway bars reverse orientation and how it was a canned idea by ford because of issues of contacting the fuel tank in accidents. i'd like more real estate for tires, but i don't want explosions in an accident!
 

DRock

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I sat and stared at the watts link today.....it looks beastly. When it come time, hit up jarred at white line. He an answer all questions. I believe her is on here as Red Devil
 

SoundGuyDave

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another thing i've heard is the rear sway bars reverse orientation and how it was a canned idea by ford because of issues of contacting the fuel tank in accidents. i'd like more real estate for tires, but i don't want explosions in an accident!

It CAN happen...



That said, I'm not so sure about the swaybar/fuel tank issue. Honestly, I mean that I don't know, BUT a quick "sanity check" on how they have the bar routed would point away from that type of issue. The ends of the bar, which could puncture a tank, face the rear of the car, and attach to the stock end-link location. The center of the bar clamps to the axle. The fuel tank is in FRONT of the axle, so it would take a pretty bizarre set of circumstances: The crash would have to either shear the endlink mounts or crush the frame forward enough to allow the length of the bar to reach the tank. At the same time, the swaybar axle mounts would have to shear, then the bar would have to work its way under the axle (no way it's going over, with the UCA there), and either "ricochet" off the pavement or be bent enough to reach UP around the axle to get into the tank, somehow dodging the driveshaft at the same time. Possible? Sure, but with a wreck with that kind of impact, I think it may be towards the outer edge of the survivability envelope in any event. I mean that we're talking about moving the swaybar forward something like two feet, and that's all reinforced chassis under there forward of the endlinks, very little in the way of engineered crumple zone that I could see. Again, no hard data, but the "gut check" says no issue.
 

neema

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It CAN happen...



That said, I'm not so sure about the swaybar/fuel tank issue. Honestly, I mean that I don't know, BUT a quick "sanity check" on how they have the bar routed would point away from that type of issue. The ends of the bar, which could puncture a tank, face the rear of the car, and attach to the stock end-link location. The center of the bar clamps to the axle. The fuel tank is in FRONT of the axle, so it would take a pretty bizarre set of circumstances: The crash would have to either shear the endlink mounts or crush the frame forward enough to allow the length of the bar to reach the tank. At the same time, the swaybar axle mounts would have to shear, then the bar would have to work its way under the axle (no way it's going over, with the UCA there), and either "ricochet" off the pavement or be bent enough to reach UP around the axle to get into the tank, somehow dodging the driveshaft at the same time. Possible? Sure, but with a wreck with that kind of impact, I think it may be towards the outer edge of the survivability envelope in any event. I mean that we're talking about moving the swaybar forward something like two feet, and that's all reinforced chassis under there forward of the endlinks, very little in the way of engineered crumple zone that I could see. Again, no hard data, but the "gut check" says no issue.

as far as the orientation and likelihood of any issues with the fuel tank goes, i'm right there with you--it doesn't make sense to me. i feel like a gossiping nanny because my fuel tank "concern" is based on hearsay, but i really don't think it's that important to get some extra room for wide tires over safety IF it really is a concern.

would i buy one though? maybe. like you said dave, my gut is telling me it would be totally fine.
 

Whiskey11

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If you have any concern about either the Watts link or sway bar from Whiteline it would be the additional unsprung weight as the majority of the Whiteline watts is unsprung and a good portion of the sway bar is unsprung. At the end of the day, I'm sure they are both still lighter than a Torque Arm and the difference in performance is plenty worth the weight. At the same time, there aren't a lot of people running Torque Arms either! :p
 

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FYI, there is an ongoing debate on another forum about the legality of the Whiteline Watts in various solo classes. Where there is no allowance to replace the diff cover, some are contending the Whiteline unit cannot be used legally. No opinion either way on the matter, just a heads up.
 

Whiskey11

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FYI, there is an ongoing debate on another forum about the legality of the Whiteline Watts in various solo classes. Where there is no allowance to replace the diff cover, some are contending the Whiteline unit cannot be used legally. No opinion either way on the matter, just a heads up.

The same could be argued about the Fays2 with the rod ends since the only provisions for "open bushing material" are the sway bar endlinks... food for thought! :p There are definitely a lot more folks on the Fays2 than the Whiteline/Griggs/Cortex Watts links in ESP
 

Sky Render

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If you have any concern about either the Watts link or sway bar from Whiteline it would be the additional unsprung weight as the majority of the Whiteline watts is unsprung and a good portion of the sway bar is unsprung. At the end of the day, I'm sure they are both still lighter than a Torque Arm and the difference in performance is plenty worth the weight. At the same time, there aren't a lot of people running Torque Arms either! :p

The Whiteline Watts Link adds less than 20 lbs of weight.
 

Red_Devil

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20lbs of unsprung weight? The entire unit weighs 29lbs per Whiteline's rep here.

Right, however, how much does the stock panhard bar, diff cover, and brace weight? The question was how much additional weight does it ADD. I can tell you our arms weigh much less than the panhard bar, possibly even with the center pivot included, the bulk of the additional weight will come in the diff cover.
 

Whiskey11

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Right, however, how much does the stock panhard bar, diff cover, and brace weight? The question was how much additional weight does it ADD. I can tell you our arms weigh much less than the panhard bar, possibly even with the center pivot included, the bulk of the additional weight will come in the diff cover.

To borrow Terry Fair's picture:

DSC9774-M.jpg


I'm not here to bash your product. That wasn't the goal of my "unsprung weight" comment. My point was that if you have any concerns about the units at all, be concerned about that because the rest is golden. I doubt the added unsprung weight over the PHB set up is going to reduce the performance enough to not make it justifiable. Hell, I added 28lbs to the back of my Mustang in a different company's watts link and the difference was NIGHT AND DAY. Terry said the same thing about your Watts and swaybar. At the end of the day all that matters is that there is a performance increase and there definitely is!
 
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SoundGuyDave

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Just FYI, the brace is sprung weight, and the PHB itself is treated much like a shock, the common value taken is 50% sprung weight. The diff cover is 100% sprung.

I would assume with a diff-mounted Watts, you would run a similar computation, in that the cover, football and all the associated hardware is 100% unsprung, and the arms themselves are 50% sprung.

Personally, I've driven a LOT of PHB equipped Mustangs, as well as Watts equipped Mustangs, and on the open track, I really don't feel much of a difference. I think roll-center adjustment is more valuable at that point! I can't comment on Auto-X or tight slaloms, that's not my gig. FWIW, I have a PHB on mine (Freedom Racing), and I'm pretty happy with the performance. Over the winter, I'm going to work on designing a mount bracket to allow variable roll center (where the PHB crosses the diff centerline).
 

Red_Devil

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I'm not here to bash your product. That wasn't the goal of my "unsprung weight" comment. My point was that if you have any concerns about the units at all, be concerned about that because the rest is golden. I doubt the added unsprung weight over the PHB set up is going to reduce the performance enough to not make it justifiable. Hell, I added 28lbs to the back of my Mustang in a different company's watts link and the difference was NIGHT AND DAY. Terry said the same thing about your Watts and swaybar. At the end of the day all that matters is that there is a performance increase and there definitely is!

Hey Whiskey,
Sorry if my post came off defensive, didn't mean to; we are all friendly here! :thumb:

I was simply trying to provide some info, I see Terry has once again done some great work providing the answers for everyone on this!
 

Whiskey11

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Just FYI, the brace is sprung weight, and the PHB itself is treated much like a shock, the common value taken is 50% sprung weight. The diff cover is 100% sprung.

I would assume with a diff-mounted Watts, you would run a similar computation, in that the cover, football and all the associated hardware is 100% unsprung, and the arms themselves are 50% sprung.

Personally, I've driven a LOT of PHB equipped Mustangs, as well as Watts equipped Mustangs, and on the open track, I really don't feel much of a difference. I think roll-center adjustment is more valuable at that point! I can't comment on Auto-X or tight slaloms, that's not my gig. FWIW, I have a PHB on mine (Freedom Racing), and I'm pretty happy with the performance. Over the winter, I'm going to work on designing a mount bracket to allow variable roll center (where the PHB crosses the diff centerline).

The diff cover is 100% sprung? You mean unsprung right, since it's attached to the live axle which is all unsprung as well? :p

I can't say I have driven any car on a roadcourse, but the difference in autocross is night and day between the transitional stability of a watts vs the PHB. I think the violence and the intensity of the transitions really separates the two devices in autocross where as things happen at a much less violent pace on a roadcourse. The other thing is that your car probably has much higher spring rates than mine does and that helps minimize the walking roll center from a PHB. One thing is certain, having a fixed roll center, either fixed in length to the CG or fixed height above the ground can pay dividends on any car. I, either rightly or wrongly prefer it to be chassis mounted for the fixed length moment arm between the CG and RC for consistent roll, others don't.

I believe Steeda produces an adjustable chassis side PHB mount for S197s if you don't feel like fabbing up your own.

http://www.steeda.com/store/steeda-...e-panhard-bar-and-brace-for-ford-mustang.html


Hey Whiskey,
Sorry if my post came off defensive, didn't mean to; we are all friendly here! :thumb:

I was simply trying to provide some info, I see Terry has once again done some great work providing the answers for everyone on this!

No worries! I just don't want any vendors to feel like I'm here to bash their product (except maybe the one with a 3 letter name that ends in R that isn't BMR). I'm one of those "thinks out loud" types of people who has too much time to think about different things about these cars. I happen to love suspension's complex beauty and that really draws me in to that. I also love tech which is why I follow Terry's posts and tend to take it all in. Anything to get an advantage over the competition! :)
 

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