Suggest recipe to make S197 = E46 M3

[ddavidv]

All:
Thanks for the thoughtful responses. This is the type of detail I was looking for. Asking in a generic Mustang forum for which wheels (as an example) would be best would be, well...you can imagine (y0 dawg! Ya'll need chrome rimz!). This will point me in the right direction of putting a package together (over time) to make the car act more like what I, uh, would expect it to coming from a euro-car background as I do.

I want a 3v for 2 reasons: 1) cost of purchase will be comparable to what I hope to get for my race car. No Coyote powered cars are anywhere in the ballpark. 2) Vanity--I just don't love the look of the restyled 5.0 cars. I have been head over heels in love with the S197 since it came out in MY2005. I want that car, even though I know the 5.0 is better. I plan on keeping it for a long time. Aside from the looks, I long to hear that V8 rumble echo off my garage walls every time I start it.

The M3 I set as the benchmark simply because it's a car I know, and showing the B-I-L my taillights would be additional fun. I'm a better/more aggressive driver than he is (simply from experience) so I'm not worried about this being a duel ending in frustration. I don't even really care about lapping faster than him. Much. I just wanted to know what it would take to get my car to the level of his (it's slightly lowered, has Bilsteins and some kind of exhaust. I think that's all he's done to it.).

Reading all the hateful comments on the seats is actually a good inspiration to ditch them. I'm no fan of leather to begin with, and finding a car with cloth doesn't seem to be easy. If I add replacing them to the list then it won't much matter what is in the car when I buy it.

300hp will be plenty for a guy who's never had more than 200 under his right foot, and I don't really want to dig into engine internals, as that's expensive (BTDT). I did read that a tune will fix the wonky throttle response they seem to have from the factory, which is a big turn off and nearly kept me from considering one.

I've read the stock calipers aren't up to the task. The Brembos don't clear the stock wheels, though, do they? Won't stop me, but I do like having the extra set of wheels around for street duty.

 

[csamsh]

I've read the stock calipers aren't up to the task. The Brembos don't clear the stock wheels, though, do they? Won't stop me, but I do like having the extra set of wheels around for street duty.

You can pick up a set of stock Brembo wheels for 5 or 6 hundred. They are very frequently available on forums and facebook groups. GT500 wheels fit too.

 

[Sky Render]

There are plenty of 18" wheels that will clear the 4-pot Brembos.

Sent from my toilet using Tapatalk

 

[Random Asshole]

This is silly. The OP said TRACK car, not autox, right?

Unless you are trying to keep up with a pro driver: Driver mod and some tires. Brakes would be a good idea if you want to stay ahead for more than a lap.

Add a CAI, exhaust, springs/shocks, and a seat if you want to do it with breaking a sweat. (Once you know what you're doing)

I like the m3's, but they are on the very top of the list of "most overrated cars on the planet".

 

[Gray Ghost GT]

Here's a one lap video around VIR full course - split screen with me on the top with a "FRPP Hot Rod" cammed 4.6L, headers, suspension and brake mods and a new BMW 135 (Twin turbo straight 6): same lap time in HPDE 3 (different times of the year):

 

[Norm Peterson]

I just wanted to know what it would take to get my car to the level of his (it's slightly lowered, has Bilsteins and some kind of exhaust. I think that's all he's done to it.).

If you're sticking with the available big-spring "lowering springs", most of the gains come from the increased spring rates.

Whatever sta-bars you might choose, you'll want both of them to be adjustable. Sam Strano used to sell a 22mm tubular rear bar, which I have on my '08 along with his 35mm front bar. That seems to be not quite enough rear bar even with Ford's OE front to rear spring balance.

Reading all the hateful comments on the seats is actually a good inspiration to ditch them. I'm no fan of leather to begin with, and finding a car with cloth doesn't seem to be easy. If I add replacing them to the list then it won't much matter what is in the car when I buy it.

A separate non-slacking belt worn over the OE 3-point seems to help keep you planted in the seat a little better than the 3-point alone can possibly do. If nothing else, it'd buy you some time.

300hp will be plenty for a guy who's never had more than 200 under his right foot, and I don't really want to dig into engine internals, as that's expensive (BTDT). I did read that a tune will fix the wonky throttle response they seem to have from the factory, which is a big turn off and nearly kept me from considering one.

I've got the FRPP cold air & tune in my '08, and since I've had it there virtually since taking delivery I can't say how much better than the stock tune it is. What I can say is that it's easy to drive with no surprises. Clearly it's not a drag-race or street race tune where all the people seem to want is big numbers and too much throttle tip-in sensitivity.

I've read the stock calipers aren't up to the task. The Brembos don't clear the stock wheels, though, do they? Won't stop me, but I do like having the extra set of wheels around for street duty.

The stock calipers are better than XP8 pads on a cool, damp to drying day at NJMP/Lightning, 1:27-ish laps (I'm old to corner-carving in general and maybe just plain old, if pretty new to track days).

Lots of wheels will fit the 14" brakes, and you can run tires as "small" as 255/45's on the 18x9.5 GT500 wheels (in fact that was the GT500 front tire size in 2008).

You'll want more wheel width than 9.5" for the track. Having the GT500 front tire/wheel package at both ends is a good street setup, but you'll likely want more wheel to go with 285 or wider tires if only for the steering response. I'm not all that crazy about 285/35's on 18 x 10's either (currently looking at 10.5").

Cornering feels a bit more composed with aftermarket rear lower control arms - modified poly at the chassis end, spherical pivots at the axle end. I think there's a little more to be had from different (firmer) bushings in the front control arm. Wouldn't bother with the rear UCA unless you're going to use that to tweak rear suspension anti-squat geometry. 320-ish ft-lbs at the crank plus a halfway intelligent right foot ought not to need more wheelhop mitigation than LCAs by themselves provide, anywhere other than maybe the drag strip.


Norm

 

[Whiskey11]

Wouldn't bother with the rear UCA unless you're going to use that to tweak rear suspension anti-squat geometry. 320-ish ft-lbs at the crank plus a halfway intelligent right foot ought not to need more wheelhop mitigation than LCAs by themselves provide, anywhere other than maybe the drag strip.


Norm

Norm, about the only reason I would recommend the UCA is for pinion angle adjustment on lowered vehicles. If for nothing else than keeping the pinion bearings happier.

 

[jcw427]

I love my KW variant 3 coil overs with the MM caster camber plates. But I have a lot of other parts done to my chassis and suspension. Other mod I loved was my W6A and W4A wilwoods. Both great mods.

 

[ExSRT8Guy]

All:
Thanks for the thoughtful responses. This is the type of detail I was looking for. Asking in a generic Mustang forum for which wheels (as an example) would be best would be, well...you can imagine (y0 dawg! Ya'll need chrome rimz!).

I want a 3v for vanity--I just don't love the look of the restyled 5.0 cars. I have been head over heels in love with the S197 since it came out in MY2005. I want that car, even though I know the 5.0 is better.

This sums up why I really like this forum - and I've subscribed to a # of them over the years, for many different cars - and why I bought an '08, even though the Coyote has more wheaties!

 

[Rabee]

Wide sticky tires/wheels + decent coilovers ( Preferred for adjustability over springs/dampers combo) + tuning elements e.g. LCA/ brackets, UCA or torque arm , sway bars and watts link ( yes, you NEED them in case you want to fix the rear geometry) = beat any M3 if you know what your doing. I assumed that, because you have raced W2W .

This will run around $5-8K and of course the consumables cost too ( brakes, fluids, more tires). But here is the thing, you cry once only, if you choose a very decent setup. Do not fall in the trap of going springs/damper then coilovers and then " true" coilovers...never ending process.

Unfortunately, our cars were born defective from the factory IMO. So you need to spend some money to fix those defects, compared to, let us say..M3, BRZ, Miata, Corvettes...etc those example are mostly born healthy from the factory, suspension wise, at least.
However, the Mustang is emotion, history, love, power and legend. The Mustang is America!!

Anyway, enough playing " engineer", but this is my opinion.

 

[kcbrown]

Norm, about the only reason I would recommend the UCA is for pinion angle adjustment on lowered vehicles. If for nothing else than keeping the pinion bearings happier.

How much do you have to lower the car before you have to start being concerned about pinion angles? 1/2"? 3/4" 1"? More?

 

[Whiskey11]

How much do you have to lower the car before you have to start being concerned about pinion angles? 1/2"? 3/4" 1"? More?

1.25" + IMO but I'm sure there are going to be people who say "it isn't an issue!" I know my whole rear axle is going to need new bearings, probably new gears when I swap the diff out if I end up keeping the car. My car sat on Steeda Sports for a year then on coilovers for another year.

 

[ddavidv]

Would the logical progression (since I haven't won the lottery) be:

Wheels/tires

Sway bars

Coilover conversion (and UCA to correct pinion angle)

Uh, everything else (watts link, etc)

Not sure where the brake changeover would fall in the progression. Probably pretty early, methinks, because I like being able to stop.

Also, browsing prices of stuff what kind of coilover/shock combo would be best for someone who can't see himself buying AST's. I live in the land of Koni/Bilstein right now.

 

[Norm Peterson]

I'd fit some sort of brake upgrade in between "Sway bars" and "Coilovers" on that list of yours. Everything above is still pure street and everything below is getting significantly deeper into corner-carving than a street-driven car ever needs to.


Norm

 

[csamsh]

I'd probably move brakes to the top of the list, at least pads and fluids. The stock S197 brakes are woefully inadequate.

Isn't there a coilover kit for Koni yellows? That would probably get a decent damper and the ability to choose rates and corner-balance.

Also this setup- people I've talked to who run it like it. No adjustability though...

http://www.vorshlag.com/product_info.php?cPath=141_142_179&products_id=559

 

[Gray Ghost GT]

Brake upgrade (6 point, stainless lines, pads, DOT 4 fluid)
Agent 47 front brake cooling ducts
Anti-sway bars - Front and Rear
Springs and Shocks/Struts
Track Wheel Alignment
Watts Link

 

[sheizasosay]

OP, what is the budget?

 

[Whiskey11]

I'd probably move brakes to the top of the list, at least pads and fluids. The stock S197 brakes are woefully inadequate.

Isn't there a coilover kit for Koni yellows? That would probably get a decent damper and the ability to choose rates and corner-balance.

Also this setup- people I've talked to who run it like it. No adjustability though...

http://www.vorshlag.com/product_info.php?cPath=141_142_179&products_id=559

Ground Control makes conversion kits for the OEM Koni Yellows but I think their complete kit is a much better kit. That's just me though.

 

[kcbrown]

Ground Control makes conversion kits for the OEM Koni Yellows but I think their complete kit is a much better kit. That's just me though.

Would you mind elaborating on what makes the complete kit better?

Having the standard Koni Yellow dampers as the heart of a coilover kit has the advantage of a lifetime warranty, at least...

 

[modernbeat]

...Having the standard Koni Yellow dampers as the heart of a coilover kit has the advantage of a lifetime warranty, at least...

Once you cut the lower perch off the Koni so you can use a sleeve kit I'd imagine the warranty would be void, as they aren't warrantied for motorsport use.