Not your typical cam position sensor issue

sportinawoody said:

should kill the whole bank

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Really? So that could explain why that side of the engine is stuck rich?

kills the fire so youre prolly just dumping un burnt gas. the wire before the connector is red as mentioned. if its not there you may want to trim the harness open and find it towards the front of the pass. side harness. use my pic as a gauge as to where.
BTW, if this is your problem, this will be the 3rd time I've aided to correct this issue including a coyote car

sportinawoody said:

kills the fire so youre prolly just dumping un burnt gas. the wire before the connector is red as mentioned. if its not there you may want to trim the harness open and find it towards the front of the pass. side harness. use my pic as a gauge as to where.

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Yeah, it's a red wire. What's killing me is that I KNOW it's in the freaking garage somewhere. Oh well. Gonna order one, since I'm on business travel from Sunday to Friday anyway.

BTW, if this is your problem, this will be the 3rd time I've aided to correct this issue including a coyote car

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That's crazy. I honestly didn't think it was that important. I've always dutifully bolted it down, but didn't even think it would cause a problem this time when it turned up missing.

Just got back from a work trip to find my resistor-capacitor thingy had arrived. I installed it today and fired the car up. It didn't seem to want to stay running at first. Tried several times. Finally started it up and held the revs up at 3000-4000 to get it to smooth out, and it did. I took an idle log (link below), but it is still very rich on bank 1.

I sent Lito the log, so hopefully he can make heads or tails out of it. The only thing that seemed really off to me was that the O2 voltage on bank 2 (as reported by LiveLink) was really jumpy. With it running so rich on bank 1, I expected weird behavior on the other side.

I checked each header pipe with a heat gun, but the battery was dying and it was hard to get the beam into that snake nest of pipes. It seemed to be around 250-300F. I thought I saw a 400+ temp on one of the headers, but it was back to ~250-300 when I went back to check it.

Also checked compression which is the same on both sides. It's always low at my altitude (7300ft), but 125-130psi is what I usually get, and that's right where each cylinder is at.

Of course, I went from the two-piece cam lockouts to the traditional one-piece setup, so the timing has definitely changed (and will need to be tuned), but that should affect both sides.

Lito has a concern about the Bosch 160lb injectors I'm using. I tested them all with 12v, and they clicked nice and cleanly. From what I've read, they won't click, or will only try to click, if they're stuck open.

Starting to run out of ideas here.

Log file: http://www.cabuzzi.net/temp/idle.zip


Here is a video, also:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qG1GFLLbZ0Q

You ever figure out these codes? I have the same ones, P0340 and P0345 on my kids new setup and the VCT is all disabled and the phasers have full lockouts, v10 block off plates and all. Same as my car but I have these codes on his. I have swapped parts from my car such as the CPS, alternator, ect to no avail.

His car runs rough and is hard to start sometimes. I have checked continuity from the PCM to the CPS and all looks good.

Can a CKP sensor cause these?

Outside of messing with it a little every few months, I haven't seriously worked on it or put much effort into trying to resolve it. I just don't have the time. I'm starting to think that even though the injectors tested fine (twice, both different shops), there is something in the wiring keeping them from firing right. I got a set of noid lights and plan to mess with it some more when the stars align (basically, I have time and it's not ball-shriveling cold). I could probably build a small house with the number of airbag warnings I got for this car, and the 2013 GT... so I even thought about driving it to the dealership and running it by one of their sharper technicians (maybe the guy that setup the cams when the 4.0L was in the car still works there).

As for the P0340 and P0345 codes, I honestly think they are informational, and that I had simply ignored them (I'm old, and there was roughly two years between the engine failure and rebuilding it). The way I came to this conclusion was based on the my concept of how those codes probably trigger, and where the two lockouts put the fingers of the cam gear reluctor in relation to the cam. The single-piece lockouts put the cams where they would rest with the engine off (fully advanced?), while the two-piece ones I have put the reluctor fingers 10* off from where they would normally be. I think this is what triggers those codes.

I think the big question for you would be whether or not you have the "fully advanced" lockouts, or the lockouts for 10* of retard. If they were the latter, they would be two pieces per cam gear, and the center finger of the cams would not be truly lined up (see pic below). If you have the single piece ones, then the middle finger (lol) should be lined up perfectly with the hash mark on the gear. You can check that easily by removing your valve covers and cranking the engine until you can see the trigger finger (lol again). I'm not sure how it is on the 4.6L, but on my 5.4L, that is the drivers' side valve cover (the passenger side trigger finger is 180* from the mark).

If you are using the single-piece cam lockouts and are still getting that code, I would imagine it is either something electrical (wiring or sensor), or you have one of the other problems people have reported. I'd be skeptical of a different problem though, as you're having the issue on both sides of the engine (P0340 = bank 1, passenger's side, P0345 = bank 2, driver's side).

Thanks for or the reply. I have checked cam timing, sensors, and alternator. As well as checking continuity and pinout to the pcm.

Well, I think those little black boxes with the wire coming out of them are not resistors and in fact are diodes. A diode is needed to suppress the inductive kickback voltage that occurs whenever an electrical current is suddenly interrupted. It can go way over the 12V battery voltage and destroy things like transistors in the pcm. Both the spark and the fuel are switched by the pcm. Both are inductive. Now, of course the pcm can have these diodes placed on the inside of the unit also, so the external ones may be more for radio interference, but I' not sure.

I imagine the VCT solenoids transistors in the pcm are protected in a similar fashion.

I know this might not help, but I thought I would put it out there.

I didn't think they had any diodes in them, but I'd wondered if I cooked something in the PCM. I actually got a new one, and Lito whipped up a quick tune for it. Same thing as the other PCM.

boomer9999 said:

Well, I think those little black boxes with the wire coming out of them are not resistors and in fact are diodes. A diode is needed to suppress the inductive kickback voltage that occurs whenever an electrical current is suddenly interrupted. It can go way over the 12V battery voltage and destroy things like transistors in the pcm. Both the spark and the fuel are switched by the pcm. Both are inductive. Now, of course the pcm can have these diodes placed on the inside of the unit also, so the external ones may be more for radio interference, but I' not sure.

I imagine the VCT solenoids transistors in the pcm are protected in a similar fashion.

I know this might not help, but I thought I would put it out there.

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05stroker said:

You ever figure out these codes? I have the same ones, P0340 and P0345 on my kids new setup and the VCT is all disabled and the phasers have full lockouts, v10 block off plates and all. Same as my car but I have these codes on his. I have swapped parts from my car such as the CPS, alternator, ect to no avail.

His car runs rough and is hard to start sometimes. I have checked continuity from the PCM to the CPS and all looks good.

Can a CKP sensor cause these?

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I'm getting those codes too as well as P0344 and 0349. Mine also has disabled VCTs and lockouts but no block off plates. I replaced the CPS and alternator with no luck. Cold starts take a few tries but runs well once warmed up. Did you figure out what it was? I think I read on another post it ended up being a bad PCM?

46addict said:

I'm getting those codes too as well as P0344 and 0349. Mine also has disabled VCTs and lockouts but no block off plates. I replaced the CPS and alternator with no luck. Cold starts take a few tries but runs well once warmed up. Did you figure out what it was? I think I read on another post it ended up being a bad PCM?

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See post #106 above.

So you think it's related to the wiring? This car has fully advanced lockouts from what the PO told me so that rules out a reluctor finger problem. Lito made no comments on fuel trims or spark timing while logging and they look good to me so that rules out any failed hard parts. No driveability issues to report.

46addict said:

So you think it's related to the wiring? This car has fully advanced lockouts from what the PO told me so that rules out a reluctor finger problem. Lito made no comments on fuel trims or spark timing while logging and they look good to me so that rules out any failed hard parts. No driveability issues to report.

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I would start with the part number for the lockout. If they are one-piece (per cam), they are a pretty brainless install... they just drop right in. If they are two-piece, you have to put the cam in the right position to get them installed (which puts the cams 10* retarded, IIRC). If you have a pair of two-piece lockouts, the reluctor finger will be off and the CPS will register it being 1/42, or roughly 8-9* off. I believe that is enough to trigger the CPS codes. As for fuel trims or spark timing, they are not the same as mechanical timing (ie: where the cams sit in relation to the crankshaft). Lito can definitely tune around it. I don't believe you have an mechanical problem, unless you have a less-than-expected compression ratio. If both cams were equally off (like if the chain jumped on the crank gear), it could still be tunable/drivable... you would just have less power. In my experience driving the car around, it was noticeable (power-wise), but idled just fine. Regarding the block off plates, they are mostly cosmetic. The phasers are likely zeroed out in Lito's tune, and there is nothing they can do to affect the cam timing. The block off plates just take them out of the picture completely and allow you to cleanly cap off the valve covers.

The only reason I thought mine was affecting driveability is because I also had a semi-broken wire in the MAF sensor, that didn't always throw a code. The CPS codes were there every time, so I focused on them initially. Once I fixed that, the car ran better... but still will eventually shut down the drivers' side bank. I have checked absolutely everything. The only thing I can do now is put the two-piece lockouts back, as that the position the Rich Groh designed the cams around. I'm hoping now that I've fixed the MAF harness and cleaned everything else up, the car will run good with the original lockouts back in. The only problem with that is due to how tight the turbos and piping is, it ends up being easier to pull the engine. We just don't have enough room in the garage right due to renovations in the house. Hopefully within the next few weeks, I can start on the car.

That makes perfect sense and gives me ideas on where to start looking. Thanks!

46addict said:

That makes perfect sense and gives me ideas on where to start looking. Thanks!

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Good luck. Not familiar with your build (thread link?), but I'll try and help further. If you can get the valve covers off without much hassle, take a few pics of the phasers/reluctors/cam gears.

I did not build this car. This is JoshK's car/build. This car has gone through several changes but the last update is that he had Livernois cams and lockouts installed. I'm fortunate to have the S&H stealth turbo kit because there's a lot of room to work with in the engine bay. Pulling the valve covers off should be no problem.

46addict said:

I did not build this car. This is JoshK's car/build. This car has gone through several changes but the last update is that he had Livernois cams and lockouts installed. I'm fortunate to have the S&H stealth turbo kit because there's a lot of room to work with in the engine bay. Pulling the valve covers off should be no problem.

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Ahh, ok. Yeah... single turbos are nice around the top of the engine, but a PITA around the k-member.

There's a bit of k-member clearance issues on my end too. I cannot get an air filter to fit on the passenger side turbo because a k-member mount is in the way. And this car has a tubular K. I can't even get a slim 3.5" filter to fit. Turns out S&H once supplied a filter pipe that goes around the passenger side front strut but no replacement parts are made anymore.

46addict said:

There's a bit of k-member clearance issues on my end too. I cannot get an air filter to fit on the passenger side turbo because a k-member mount is in the way. And this car has a tubular K. I can't even get a slim 3.5" filter to fit. Turns out S&H once supplied a filter pipe that goes around the passenger side front strut but no replacement parts are made anymore.

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I guess it's 6 to one, half a dozen to the other .

Some updates with my situation. I talked to Josh and from the sound of things he had the cams installed and degreed properly. The cams went in more than two years ago and he hasn't had any issues. So for now I ruled out any mechanical problems. I dropped this thing off at the shop because I'm in over my head. They discovered the cam position sensor wires for bank 1 and 2 had swapped sides when Josh or whoever did the wire tuck. Then they said doing this could very well have messed up the PCM driver which was confirmed when I got the car back with a group of other codes unrelated to the CPS. I now have injector and MAF codes along with a P0344, and some other codes starting with B and C. A takeoff PCM is already on the way, and Lito said any 07-09 manual trans PCM can work for this car and he plans on disabling PATS so I don't have to pay to get a new key programmed. Am I treading the right path or is this the wrong rabbit hole?

On a sidenote, I got a hold of Jeremy and he sent me the intake piping I need for the passenger side turbo so I no longer have to drive with just a mesh screen on the turbo.