Best Option for a Modest Power Increase - 5.0 Coyote

Discussion in 'Mustang Chit Chat' started by ddd4114, Feb 10, 2018.

  1. ddd4114

    ddd4114 forum member

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    I'm working on a build for NASA TT, and I'm trying to figure out the best way to boost power up to my class limit.

    Here is some information about the car and my restrictions for adding power:
    • The only modifications I currently have to add power are the Ford Racing Power Pack (K&N filter + Ford Racing tune), and I've replaced the mufflers with Borla S-Types. Aside from an aftermarket driveshaft, everything else is stock. It consistently makes ~365whp peak on a Dynojet.
    • Based on my build, I can make about +35whp and stay class-legal. If I make more power than that, I'll either have to detune or use smaller tires (which actually might be worth trying).
    • To fully take advantage of the new rules, I should increase my redline to at least 7100 rpm. However, I'd rather not go much higher than that if possible since I don't want to compromise reliability. I've been taking this car to the track since I bought it in 2011, and I've had absolutely nothing go wrong with the engine; I haven't pulled a single spark plug or valve cover.
    • Not including a tune, my budget is ~$2000. I can do all of the work myself (besides dyno tuning), so labor cost isn't an issue.
    • While this is a dedicated track car, it's still street-legal, and I still drive it to events. Therefore, I don't want to delete the cats. Also, I live in a townhouse development, so I'd prefer not to make the car much louder if I can avoid it. Furthermore, this means I'll be using 93 octane pump gas since E85 and race gas are impractical for me.
    I've done a lot of reading online, and here are the two options that seem promising:
    1. Long tubes with high-flow cats. I've read forum posts and articles in which people claim anywhere from 15 to 30 whp just from long tubes, so I don't know how much to realistically expect. I know that 35whp is very unlikely, but something close should still be good enough for most of the season. I really doubt that a $350 cold air intake will be worth much, but it might close the gap a little. Since most designs are not fully enclosed, I wonder how much IATs and flow restriction increase with the hood closed (on track) compared to the OEM intake system. I looked into combining long tubes with a Boss 302 intake manifold, but that doesn't really seem worth it unless I'm revving to 7500 rpm.
    2. "Stage 3" camshafts. I've seen "NSR" camshafts that advertise decent gains up to 7200 rpm, but I'm a bit skeptical that the OEM valve springs are really appropriate when I'm beating the crap out of car for 2 hours over the course of the weekend. I've seen +50whp reported with "stage 3" camshafts requiring valve springs, but that engine also had aftermarket intake/exhaust parts. I'm not sure how much less I should expect with basically OEM intake/exhaust.
    What do you guys recommend? Does anybody have experience with before/after dyno testing either of these combinations?

    Thanks in advance.
     
  2. Pentalab

    Pentalab forum member

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    Vorshlag racing sez they managed to achieve 440 rwhp on their 2011 GT with just LT's and a 93 tune, and I think an open air cone type CAI. They are a vendor on here, and also have a long drawn out blog about their various mods to their 2011 GT....used for road course + auto X duty, but still was used as a DD.Dunno if they used the Boss 302 intake manifold or not. They are only a phone call / e-mail away, and have run in several different classes.

    The oem 11-14 CAI box, per ford flows aprx 768 cfm..and aprx 20-22% more with the K+N panel filter, per K+N.
    On paper, to get 440 rwhp with a manual tranny = 500 crank hp = 750 cfm. On paper, the oem airbox and K+N + LT's + 93 tune should do the trick for you. You will have to decide whether to use a catted X.... or a catted H..and whether plane SS, or ceramic coated SS. Typ the X will provide more top end HP... and the H will provide for more low-mid range ( and a bit less at top end) rwtq. The ceramic coated LT's don't get hot, and will reduce eng bay temps a bunch. The catted H or catted X results in new hi-flow cats being located beneath the front seats..instead of base of eng bay, now that too, will reduce eng bay temps a bunch more. Oem cats run blazing hot with high rpms, like 1600-1800 F.
     
    Last edited: Feb 11, 2018
  3. 5lho

    5lho forum member

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    LT headers and full exhaust, with a tune modified for it will do the job. Problem is, you can't modify your existing tune so you're in for another tuner.

    I put my 2012 GT down to 11.9 at 115, fully loaded stick 3.73 BBP car, on the Procal and a sticky tire, stock everything in the powertrain bar GT500 mufflers. The Procal definitely delivered for me, at least in that car.
     
  4. JG-1

    JG-1 forum member

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    If your doing LT's, I have a kooks high flow catted x-pipe in the for sale section at a very good price. And it's practically brand new.

    My vote would be LT's, mid pipe, OTA pipes, mufflers and a 93 race tune from a place such as Lund.
     
  5. Sky Render

    Sky Render Stig's Retarded Cousin

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    Is this a 3-valve or Coyote we're talking about?
     
  6. ExSRT8Guy

    ExSRT8Guy Been There, Done That

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    That'd be one stout 3-valve if it's making 365 whp.
     
  7. ddd4114

    ddd4114 forum member

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    Haha yes, it's a Coyote. That's why I posted in the "2011+ Mustang GT 5.0L" section of the forum. ;)

    Thanks for the replies so far.
     
  8. Juice

    Juice forum member

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    Is it allowed to port the heads? How about port matching the heads and intake? I've not had my intake off the Coyote yet, so I don't know how close the ports are matched up. Port matching can be done without pulling the heads. This work is mostly labor only if you can do it yourself. And last, I would get dyno time and squeeze every last hp out of the combo.
     
  9. ddd4114

    ddd4114 forum member

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    Porting and port matching is allowed, but I would definitely pull the heads for that. A small amount of metal can destroy cylinder walls, so it's not really worth the risk to me (especially since my blow-by is bad enough as it is). If I was looking to make a lot more power, cylinder head work would be a consideration, but I'd rather keep it simple for this. Dyno tuning is a must no matter which option I choose, and I'm sure that will help. Basically the only thing I'm not allowed to use is nitrous, so just about anything else goes as long as I stay under my power limit (which is ~400whp for my car).

    It sounds like with long tubes, a tune, and maybe a few more small tweaks, 35whp should be possible. That would definitely be the easiest since I should be able to do everything in a weekend. However, while I suspect it's uncommon, I would like to hear from anybody who's messed around with camshafts with mostly stock intake/exhaust parts. While a full exhaust will no doubt sound awesome at the track, I'd rather not give my neighbors and my hearing another reason to hate me.

    Thanks.
     
  10. JeremyH

    JeremyH 3V Fuel Guru

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    +1 Long tubes and custom tune.
     
  11. travelers

    travelers Senior Member

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    How do they check your HP? No dynos are the same.
     
  12. Pentalab

    Pentalab forum member

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    Keep the oem mufflers, that will keep the neighbors happy. Just install the LT's + catted H / X... + tune. You will more than easily get your 400 rwhp and then some. I have yet to see multiple dyno's that correlate. What ever the officials are using for the final dyno numbers is what you have to abide by. That raises yet another issue, what rpm are they using for max hp ? You might even need to get it slightly de-tuned in the end, to meet their dyno specs. No need to mess with cyl heads. Keep it simple. I would use a catted H, to maximize low and mid range tq. Get your tuner to maximize tq, then limit the top end hp to the prescribed limits.
     
  13. ddd4114

    ddd4114 forum member

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    You have to submit a dyno compliance form for your class containing your dyno plot and a few other pieces of information. They basically require the ubiquitous Dynojet product line, but they have conservative "conversion factors" for other types. However, since Dynojets are so simple, they tend to be pretty consistent if they're in reasonably good condition. As long as the bearings aren't totally worn out, the only thing that can induce much error is the weather station used for the SAE correction factor. That being said, I've had garbage Dynojet numbers for my car in the past (393whp with the exact same setup), so you still have to be careful about who/what to trust and have realistic expectations.

    There are mobile Dynojets hired to be at some events, so if you finish well, you may be sent to the dyno as soon as you pull off the track. Essentially, if your numbers on the mobile dyno there are higher than what you claim on your class paperwork, you're disqualified. NASA realizes all dynos read a little differently, and similarly, your car's actual power output will change throughout the day. However, there is only so much they can check, control, and enforce without making the process a total PITA. Their stance is simply that you should use a conservative number on your class paperwork to allow some buffer in the readings, and people with more balls (or less foresight) will have less of a buffer.

    There are a few nuances to the rules that I'm excluding for simplicity, but that's the basic idea.
     
  14. travelers

    travelers Senior Member

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    That makes sense and it seem like it was well thought out. You definitively need a +- to that number.
     
  15. ddd4114

    ddd4114 forum member

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    I decided to go with long tubes, option #1, and I was pleasantly surprised. I got the car tuned at the same place where I had my baseline dyno runs, and after tuning, I gained 38 whp and 24 lb-ft. I was expecting about half that, so I'm guessing the factory cats were getting a bit clogged. I'm now at 402whp, which puts me right at the limit for my class (including some buffer).

    [​IMG]

    Since I knew installing long tubes was going to suck, I bought the Stainless Works 1-7/8" kit with 200-cell cats and an X-pipe because they have a good reputation and I didn't want to mess with something that didn't fit well. I installed them on jack stands with the help of a friend, and I think it still took about 12 hours to do the swap (including beer breaks). Some of the nuts for the manifolds are damn near impossible to access, and my aftermarket oil pan didn't make it any easier. I think swapping my transmission on jack stands was more difficult, but this was a close second.

    Thanks again for your feedback.
     
  16. Sky Render

    Sky Render Stig's Retarded Cousin

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    Did you already have an aftermarket tune before the headers?
     
  17. ddd4114

    ddd4114 forum member

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    I had the generic Ford Racing calibration. The new calibration was ~5whp of that 38whp gain.
     
  18. Juice

    Juice forum member

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    Just for comparison, I'm running the Coyote Control Pack tune file in a stock 2013 PCM. Stock shorty headers, Magnaflow high flow direct fit cats, and JLT CAI. The midpipes are leftover from the V6 dual exhaust conversion with SVE stainless steel mufflers. Dyno numbers in sig. The engine came from a 2013 GT automatic, with a claim of 75,000 miles.
     
  19. Sky Render

    Sky Render Stig's Retarded Cousin

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    Thanks. I'm running the same FRPP tune and was wondering what kinds of gains I'd get from Long Tubes.
     
  20. ddd4114

    ddd4114 forum member

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    No problem. I'm taking the car to Mid-Ohio this weekend, so I'll have a better idea of the "real world" performance improvements soon. It'll be a little optimistic since it'll be in the 40's each morning, but I think I have some similar data to compare.
     

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