jake_zx2 PURSUIT OF A 8 MINUTE NURBURGRING LAP

Discussion in 'Corner Carver Racing Tech Discussion' started by jake_zx2, Dec 2, 2016.

  1. Norm Peterson

    Norm Peterson corner barstool sitter

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    Mostly just to identify late edits to the above ↑↑↑ post.

    But on the matter of brake pads - I'm going to strongly recommend either Carbotechs or G-locs over the Hawks. Mainly because in compositions adequate for 'ring running they're going to be MUCH kinder to your rotors if you plan on running the same pads in much street driving at all. Been there. At least as far up as Carbotech's XP12's (G-loc R12's) you've got higher rated temperature capability with lower rotor wear rates than Hawk's HP+, and they're good enough for DD at least as far down as low 20°s/high teens F where cold bite becomes an important criterion.


    Norm
     
  2. SoundGuyDave

    SoundGuyDave This Space For Rent

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    This all really boils down to the basics. It's fairly EASY to prep a car for a sub-8:00 Ring lap, if you're willing to focus on hitting that number. Tires first. Biggest you can stuff in there, and as sticky as you can find. Dampers/springs/bars to control that contact patch. Brakes to take advantage of the MUCH higher exit speeds you'll see with the above. Finally, power, and the drivetrain to put it to good use. In the end, the chassis that all that stuff is bolted to is fairly immaterial, but lighter is much better than heavier. That, and of course the balls to drive it like Leh Keen or Sabine Schmitz wouldn't hurt either!

    Where you'll run into problems is in the "keep it streetable" compromises. 11" wheels with 305 soft-compound slicks, 900/300 springs, stiff bars, 3200lb race weight, etc. will not be a streetable combination, but it will give you the grip you need to hit your target time.

    It's akin to planning a build that will pull 9-second quarters, 1.5G in the corners, AND do it with a 25MPG efficiency while riding like a Cadillac. Just ain't going to happen. A compromise build works, and is fine, as long as all the goals are realistic.

    I'm honestly not sure how realistic it is to take on a 1LE lap time, when the 1LE in question was driven by a factory driver, shod on what are effectively R-compounds, and with a perfect day on a closed track. At least, not when you have some form of all-season tires, "streetable" suspension, and a 100+HP deficiency.
     
  3. jake_zx2

    jake_zx2 forum member

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    I'm aiming MORE for the mid-low 8 area, but sub 8 would be impressive to say the least.

    As for the keep it streetable part, I am considering buying a set of wheels for daily duty and moving up to some 19x11 for track duty. As I said in my OP, I don't have too much of a problem with stiff suspension, I'm used to it from my other car being so damn rough. as for race weight, that's pretty easily reversible (remove unneeded seats, spare tire, trunk matting, subwoofers, door panels, should take maybe an hour or so and should shave, what, about 200 lbs?). compromise is the biggest thing with this. I'm not looking for a perfect daily that rides like it were stock, I know that's impossible with the goal I'm seeking. but to keep it fairly streetable while putting down the same time as a stock S550? I don't think that's too far of a stretch as long as I can get the seat time and improvement necessary. I think my skill is more of a limiting factor than the car itself.
     
  4. Boone

    Boone Automotive Enthusiast

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    Check out the thread below for a good wheel / tire option if you want to go dedicated track tire.

    http://www.s197forum.com/forum/showthread.php?t=125304

    You've got Norm excited, which is a good thing. Listen to him and do the simple things that make a positive impact. You can accomplish your goal by using tried and tested formulas from veterans of the Mustang community.
     
  5. jake_zx2

    jake_zx2 forum member

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    @Boone thanks for the link! I've seen norm around here a few times in my short time on these forums, and I've picked up that he's a VERY knowledgeable guy. definitely glad that he's picked up on this thread, it's always great to receive advise from people who know what they're talking about lol
     
  6. Norm Peterson

    Norm Peterson corner barstool sitter

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    I'm interested because this build might not be too different from my own.

    I counted somewhere around 100 turns in the video, which on a per mile basis is even more technical than my home track. IOW, perhaps better suited to an early S197 GT than to an early 5th gen Camaro.

    My choice of the 2010 SS Camaro wasn't exactly random - the earlier Camaros did understeer more heavily than the same-year Mustang GTs, and Automobile magazine ran a feature a few years back where they compared a 2010 SS Camaro against a 2010 Track-Pack equipped Mustang GT. Driven by a couple of "name-brand" second-generation drivers (Dave and Frank would recognize the names), they basically ran laps in the same second. The magazine was good enough to include what looks like Aim Solo speed traces and a few bits of other data that I can compare to, so I have a fair idea where my car sits in its current state of chassis tune (significantly higher braking and cornering g's than either) as well as where my driving could stand a little work. I think a car like mine might be able to run pretty close to the Edmund's ring time - assuming that their car was reasonably stock - if the driver can keep doing his part for the entire 8 - 9 minutes, and at age 20 you've got the time to develop into a better driver than I'm ever likely to become.

    What it'd take to keep up with a later stock SS with the FE4 suspension and only a couple of mods, or even more so a stock 1LE would be a different story entirely; for that you'd at the very least need to match the LS3's power because those later cars narrowed any suspension/wheel/tire size advantage you can reasonably build into your '05 and still keep it at least semi-streetable.


    Norm
     
    Last edited: Dec 7, 2016
  7. jake_zx2

    jake_zx2 forum member

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    Hey guys, sorry for the lack of updates!

    New lowering springs came in a while ago, H&R race springs (thanks LMR and Black Friday sales!) and I think I've decided to sell my 2013 non-pp gt front brakes in favor of s550 calipers and gt500 rotors. Picked up an s550 steering wheel, but was disappointed to find that the wheel is the same diameter as the s197 wheel. regardless, I'll still try to retrofit and see if I can get the steering wheel controls to work. along with that, I got a new radio to replace the factory unit, it's made by a company called Eonon, and it looks to be an incredible bargain (think raxiom clean factory appearance and functionality/features for less than half the price), however it states it's made specifically for F150s. The company couldn't confirm if it'll work in our cars, but I'm fairly certain it will, so I bought it anyway.

    Now, to the bad news: I recieved notification that I will be going to a temporary duty location before the start of the real race season. I MIGHT be back in time to get a few laps in on the 'Ring, but most likely, my goal will have to wait until next race season. Sorry to anyone who was looking forward to seeing it in action, and I will still do my best to try and hit that time before the end of the season (with video proof), but with the inevitable lack of track time (and, for that matter, time driving with all the new mods in general), I doubt I'll be able to hit my target time. I will still do my best to keep you guys updated!

    -Jake
     
  8. SoundGuyDave

    SoundGuyDave This Space For Rent

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    Looking forward to the updates. And always, thank you for your service!
     
  9. Boone

    Boone Automotive Enthusiast

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    I'm willing to wait for your Ring time while you save the world. I hope you manage to accomplish both objectives. Thanks for your service!
     
  10. jake_zx2

    jake_zx2 forum member

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    Thank you guys for your support!
     
  11. 2008 V6

    2008 V6 forum member

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    8min - Difficult with the new speed limitations.
     
  12. jake_zx2

    jake_zx2 forum member

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    Speed limits are a rumor, they don't actually enforce that
     
  13. jake_zx2

    jake_zx2 forum member

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    Well, I'm officially deployed, so no more Nurburgring runs until the end of the season. However, I did get one more lap in before I left (this time with a little more confidence). Unfortunately, I had tire and brake issues. The tires were some kuhmo summer tires borrowed from a friend... upon mounting them on the car, I found that they were fairly low on tread, and there seemed to be some gouges, as if he nailed a curb with them or something (typical mustang driver?), let alone being awful tires in general. To say my brakes were sub-par would be an understatement... they were EXTREMELY cheap pads that I bought for the sole purpose of one lone lap around the ring under the impression that "any pads were better than no pads", but that seemed to be a misconception, as I completely lost my brakes about 10 turns in once they heated up (I know it wasn't fluid, I had motul 600 which was fine on my previous brakes) which I assume was mostly due to gas buildup, being as cheap as they were. However, I made it through the lap, and I'm happy with the time I got... 10:06 with getting stuck behind slow drivers twice and a total of 1:40 driving in yellow flag conditions. In perfect conditions, I would conservatively estimate a 9:20-9:30 with me driving, which was my goal for a bone-stock car. To watch the lap, here's the link! https://youtu.be/CotWiR6hcPs
     
  14. Roadracer350

    Roadracer350 forum member

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    Cool lap but you are off the gas so much that right there is your 8min lap when you take into account yellow flags. When you let off the gas you should be immediately in the brakes and when off brake you should be right back in the gas. No delay. Get some better pads, brake cooling ducts and better tires. The wider the better. Look forward to seeing your progress. As always watch your 6 brother
     
  15. jake_zx2

    jake_zx2 forum member

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    Yeah, that's one thing that I really have to work on is finding ideal braking zones. I'm trying to play it pretty safe for now, especially with the awful brakes and considering that I had a passenger in the car. Better brakes and better/much wider tires are in the plans! The yellow flags were a PITA, but they actually don't happen too often... that was actually my first experience ever with a yellow flag (go figure; 2 in one lap while really trying to shave time). But thanks for the support!

    Thought you guys might appreciate this as well...[PHOTOB][​IMG][/PHOTOB]
     

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