Looking for Opinions on a Simple V6 Drift Setup

Ike

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Hi there, I'm Ike, new to the forum.

Last mustang was an '05 GT with the 14" Wilwood kit front and rear... and many tires. After cracking an OEM caliper, I got the brakes and have to say the Wilwood kit did take abuse very well and I was impressed. Rotors lasted about three sets of pads and fade was was minimal, but still ever present and something to keep in mind. Engine started stuttering at 100k and I sold it. Went to my fourth Miata, which in a fluke I flipped off a wall on track at a very slow speed and started car searching again. I was looking at vettes and s2ks before I found out Ford now sells this awesomely well priced 15" BBK so....

Proud owner of a slightly used 2012 V6! w/ manual transmission!

I've been through three sets of tires with the new car and decided it needs some fixing. My biggest issue with it so far is the outright silly amount of throttle lag which I'm reading is all software, and can be fixed with a tune. Its like instead of feathering the throttle I have to feather the clutch. All I can say is WOW, so lag. Second big issue is wheel hop. It never showed up in the 05 GT, and I am hoping spring/shocks will fix it, but after reading a bit, it sounds like an adjustable third link might be necessary. Basically a burnout will start out okay, then start a high frequency hop/judder sort of thing, though if I'm sideways, everything is fine.

Planning:
BAMA iTSX
AirRaid CAI
Vorshlag lowering spring/bilstein shock/camber plate combo. (spring recommendations for very poorly maintained and bumpy track?)
15" Ford Racing BBK on all four
19x9.5 SVE Drift wheels w/ 275 somethings all around. (I'm partial to Dunlop ZIIs for most everything, Haven't tried the Rivals, Falkens hold up well hot, and while HK RSIIIs melt way too fast, they are okay on really light cars.)
BMR Panhard Bar relocation bracket
BMR Panhard Bar

After the above we'll do a 6pt cage, add seats, harnesses, mod the spindles and fab in a hydraulic handbrake.
So if anyone wants to give me advice, on wheel hop, my planned mods, or throttle lag, it would be greatly appreciated!

Drift Safely!
Ike
 
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Roadracer350

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I had the same problem on my 06 GT. Add Whiteline LCA and brackets and you should be good. If you drop it go with either Whiteline panhard bar or watts depending on what all you want to do. When you talk to Terry or Jason at Vorshlag ask them about the Whiteline products and they can get you set up.
 

RocketcarX

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need more power, positive displacement blower should help you step out
 

LS1EATINPONY

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If youre gonna go that far then look into a good set of coilovers. There are many great options out there. It really will depend on what you want and $$$ you wanna spend. I run Eibach Multi pro R2s. They work really well. They will not slam the car fyi. The most important components for your car will be

1. coilovers
2. LCA for the rear (this will eliminate your wheel hop)
3. LCA relocation brackets ( adjustable ones is ideal and if I recall correctly they are all adjustable but please dont scald me if im wrong)
4. UCA you will want an adjustable one here as well to set pinion angle.


5. My personal recommendation is get some good wheels that are lightweight with good tires. If you mod your knuckles then of course youll need to get a much higher offset wheel for you fronts to keep from rubbing the frame rail and/or the control arms.

One of my pet peeves is the factory seats. You will spend alot of time trying to keep from sliding out of them especially if you have leather. Might wanna look into a good Fixed back seat as one of the top of the list mods.
 

Ike

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Thanks for the comments!

I'm happy with the power for now, lets say I can out-drive most of the corvette owners I've met. I'd rather spend supercharger money on light weighting.

I had the same problem on my 06 GT. Add Whiteline LCA and brackets and you should be good. If you drop it go with either Whiteline panhard bar or watts depending on what all you want to do. When you talk to Terry or Jason at Vorshlag ask them about the Whiteline products and they can get you set up.

Will do LCAs then, and I can only drop it an inch and a half I think before bottoming out becomes an issue, so are relocation brackets still necessary?

If youre gonna go that far then look into a good set of coilovers. There are many great options out there. It really will depend on what you want and $$$ you wanna spend. I run Eibach Multi pro R2s. They work really well. They will not slam the car fyi. The most important components for your car will be

1. coilovers
2. LCA for the rear (this will eliminate your wheel hop)
3. LCA relocation brackets ( adjustable ones is ideal and if I recall correctly they are all adjustable but please dont scald me if im wrong)
4. UCA you will want an adjustable one here as well to set pinion angle.

5. My personal recommendation is get some good wheels that are lightweight with good tires. If you mod your knuckles then of course youll need to get a much higher offset wheel for you fronts to keep from rubbing the frame rail and/or the control arms.

One of my pet peeves is the factory seats. You will spend alot of time trying to keep from sliding out of them especially if you have leather. Might wanna look into a good Fixed back seat as one of the top of the list mods.

While I would love double adjustability, I'll have to think twice about dropping 4k on full coilovers. I am so used to floating over bumpy and cracked pavement like I'm hydroplaning...

Wheels will be a few lbs lighter despite needing 19's for the brakes, and in the cheap category, since I do need a minimum of 8 on a drift day. Usually go for two ZIIs for fronts, and rotate six cheaper tires for the rears for practice.

I do have the cloth seats, which are significantly narrower than the leather ones in the 05 GT. I may head down to subesports to try out a bunch soon.

On a side note, does anyone know how to solve the issue of ABS not working very well in reverse? After I spin, the system backs off way too much. Short of turning it off entirely which may be necessary.

---Mechanical/Electrical Issue---
After logging in a dozen or so sideways hours in this car, last weekend I was half an hour in with had advance-track off of course, and was mid-slide, then a second traction control looking light came on and the car started braking wheels, I would describe it like it "broke itself back on". It happened twice and turning the car off and on fixed it both times... I've never experienced anything like this before. Can anyone help?

Ike
 
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Ike

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Here's the new DD/Track toy mod list:

Engine
BAMA iTSX
AirRaid CAI
Suspension
Vorshlag-Bilstein StreetPro Monotube Suspension Kit
Whiteline Watts Link
Whiteline LCAs
Whiteline LCA Relocation Brackets
Whiteline UCA w/ Relocation Bracket
Steeda X11 Ball Joints
Brakes/Wheels/Tires
15" Ford Racing BBK on all four
19x9.5 SVE Drift wheels
Dunlop ZII 275mm tires
Interior Performance
Cobra Evolution Pro Fit Seats
PLANTED Cobra Seat 05+ Mustang Brackets
Cobra Seat Sliders
Schroth HIII Belts
Interior Not-Performance
V1
Lukas 7900 ACE
Griffin Phone Mount
USB Cable
Aux Cable
Bug Out Bag
Sunglasses, Hat
Exterior
LED fog lights
35% Tint

Any bushing replacement recommended? I'm at 60k miles
My last ball joints had 1/8" of play at 80k.
 
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csamsh

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Nice list...maybe not 15" brakes all around? The 14" 4-piston Brembo fronts and 1-piston rears do just fine...and they are a 45-ish pound saving when it comes to rotating mass...those 15" rotors are 32lbs EACH.
 

LS1EATINPONY

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Im not real sure why you think good coilovers have to cost $4000. The ones listed in my sig retail for $2200 if im not mistaken. I found mine on amazon (yes amazon) for $1600. Brand new. Not a knock off. Eibach still warrantied them.
 

LS1EATINPONY

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On the bushing replacement question. I would say yes since they will see extra stress. Steeda has nice ball joints. Bumpsteer kit will be needed for your car since youll be lowering it

Edit Sorry i just realized you had those two things listed already. Bushings will make a difference but maybe someone who has actually done them can shed more light on that subject
 

Ike

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Can you please explain this? I'm not sure that you're correct in that assertion...

Ditto on the above. Generally on mcpherson cars the tie rod ends are longitudinally coincident to the control arm ends, so its 0 bump steer regardless of where they are in the pivot range. Unless of course Ford engineered in bump steer from the factory, which would be weird.

I'll reconsider the 14's. This car IS lighter after all.
 

sheizasosay

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Unless of course Ford engineered in bump steer from the factory, which would be weird.

According to Jack Hidley, Ford built roll steer into the mustang. The bumpsteer kit can fix that.
 

Vorshlag-Fair

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...Ford built roll steer into the mustang. The bumpsteer kit can fix that.

According to the internet, there's 1000 bolt on parts every S197 must buy. Most of the stuff offered for these cars are better at wallet lightening than anything else. I am honestly shocked at the number of nearly worthless bolt-on doo-dads there are for this car. Some of the stuff out there is just made to make somebody money. I lump about 75% of the S197 aftermarket parts offerings in with exhaust whistles and intake fans...

mustang-junk-M.jpg


Now I don't say this about the bumpsteer kits lightly - as I've tracked dozens of lowered S197 Mustangs without bump steer kits and didn't notice the massive bumpsteer some make you think occurs. And driven ones with them on and didn't notice a difference, and we race on some bump tracks. Yes, when you lower a car dramatically there will be some added bump steer but the degree of this affect varies depending on who you ask. Also the solutions are a PITA to install and really are better suited to a dedicated race car, in my humble opinion.


Now let's talk about the rest of this drift V6 Mustang. Lots of good suggestions here, and his wish list has some worthwhile and useful parts.

Engine
BAMA iTSX
AirRaid CAI
Suspension
Vorshlag-Bilstein StreetPro Monotube Suspension Kit
Whiteline Watts Link
Whiteline LCAs
Whiteline LCA Relocation Brackets
Whiteline UCA w/ Relocation Bracket
Steeda X11 Ball Joints
Brakes/Wheels/Tires
15" Ford Racing BBK on all four
19x9.5 SVE Drift wheels
Dunlop ZII 275mm tires
Interior Performance
Cobra Evolution Pro Fit Seats
PLANTED Cobra Seat 05+ Mustang Brackets
Cobra Seat Sliders
Schroth HIII Belts
Hey, for a drifter I gotta say you have an astonishingly good wish list going. I mean that in a good way. I might suggest a few tweaks...

The 15" front 6 piston brakes are awesome, and shops like Rehagen and others are just about giving them away (they must have a container full of these 15" fronts that Ford gave them - I don't know how they sell them so cheap). But Mark C is right - those rotors are BOAT ANCHORS at 32 pounds each. This is one of the few times that we can say that the 14" Brembo front rotors are so much lighter, at 25 pounds each, heh. But other than the weight, the number one problem with the 15" GT500 front brakes is...

_DSF0670%20copy-M.jpg


The requirement to use 19" and larger wheels. That's the only reason I haven't gone to these brakes. Well, other than the fact that the 14" stuff works pretty damned well, even on a pig heavy 3770 pound car like ours (we ballast up for class rules). I've seen one 18" wheel that can fit over this package, but it is expensive and the clearance is SUPER tight. Fewer choices always means more expensive.

_DSC9708_DSC9708-M.jpg


The Brembo 4 pots are very effective calipers, and the rotors are under $100 each. The ABS works very well with the 14" fronts and stock 11.5" rears, and we've even had good results with the 14" GT500 rears (but for drifting, I don't think I'd upgrade the rears). We put a kit together using Ford sourced Brembo calipers, Centric premium 14" front rotors, your choice of pads, all the hardware, and priced it at $1100. Not take offs, not used parts, brand new and as good or better than OEM quality. You can use almost any 18" wheels, and more importantly, you can use 18" tires.

_DSC7142-M.jpg


If you are worried about brake heat a proper brake ducting/backing plate set-up will work WONDERS. This should be a mod that is higher up on more people's wish lists, especially for track cars. Even semi-serious HPDE folks should have front brake ducting - long before they look at the expense, weight, tire limitations and hassle of going to 6-piston 15" front brakes.

1DSC_8903-M.jpg


And 18" tires are more plentiful and cheaper than 19" tires. Plus the same tire height will have more sidewall than a 19" tire would. Those are all crucial points that racers cannot ignore. The SVE drift wheels are VERY HEAVY, too. Don't compound the already very heavy 15" front brakes with boat anchor wheels.

DSC_1105-M.jpg


Also, I will admit that I'm a little weary of the Whiteline UCA upper. We weren't super happy with the original design, and there were a few failures, a recall and then a redesign. The new redesign looks plenty strong now, so I'm not worried about failures, but I'm still not sure it is the right configuration for the UCA. I'll probably get some grief from Whiteline for this, but I think there could be better some options for the UCA out there. Maybe something with multiple mounting hole locations (for geometry adjustments) that might help some racers. Also, I'd probably stick with spherical uppers, which should pivot with less bind at this central upper mount (the LCAs don't pivot as much) and I'd get a unit with a matching upper mount made of steel thicker than the OEM stamped piece. There are a couple of solutions out there that we are looking at (hopefully more affordable than the $700 Multimatic unit we are using). The rest of your Whiteline choices look to be spot on, and I'm running those pieces happily.

Any bushing replacement recommended? I'm at 60k miles
My last ball joints had 1/8" of play at 80k.
_DSC3349-M.jpg


Well the sloppiest bushings on the S197 have to be the front LCA bushings, with the massive hydraulic filled rubber bushing that is as big as a beer can at the rear mount. Frankly it is a terrible design for motorsports use because it allows for a lot of toe change under braking and camber loss under cornering loads. You can see this for yourself - have someone drive any S197 Mustang at about 10-15 mph, stand next to the car and have them stop hard. Then WATCH the wheel move.... ca-thunk!

DSC_0652a-M.jpg


Now we changed the set of front Lower Control Arm bushings with poly long ago, but on our 2011 GT it threw the electric assist steering (EPAS) into a weird feedback loop that made the car almost undrivable. Ford denied any issues and the dealer couldn't fix it, so we bought a $999 Ford Racing reprogrammed steering rack and the problem was solved. Since then lots of people have had the same problem on the 2011 cars, but many fewer 2012 cars have this affliction, and virtually none of the 2013's have reported this problem when going to firmer bushings or LCAs with new bushings up front. So that's something I would definitely do on a 2013 and might even try on a 2012, if I was tracking or autocrossing it regularly. This is a big improvement for a small outlay in parts... but it is a b!tch of a job to do, and you could screw up your steering rack (almost certainly on a 2011, but a fairly safe bet on a 2012 and almost a 100% safe on a 2013-14)

DSC_2333-M.jpg


That's all I have on your wish list. Now the shocks... that's a different story. We've sold shocks to some pro level drift teams. The Bilstein StreetPro might work well for that, but for a bumpy track and an axle-hop happy rear I'd probably do a monotube adjustable. I wouldn't do Eibach shocks, though. I won't get into that other than we've seen a lot of failures and corners cut on their design. And I'm an Eibach dealer so I will get grief for that, too. The shock choices for the S197 - not a lot of great monotube adjustable choices that are affordable right now, but we're working on that. Call us and ask for Jason or Terry if you want to talk S197 real coilover dampers.

Thanks,
 

BMR Tech

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^ I agree with Terry mostly.

I was asking if it was still a drift build, simply because I would also recommend bearings on the control arm (UCA/LCA) ends.

I recommend:

-Bearing Adjustable UCA, with an UCA Mount with multiple mounting locations
-Bearing Adjustable LCA

I am not quite sure a set of LCA Relocation Brackets is going to be necessary on a build like this. I would recommend skipping them, and going that route when and it you deem it necessary.

Another big "plus" for a drift set-up is acquiring a bit more steering angle. There are several competition drift cars (well known) out there who have great success using our adjustable front A-Arms for this.

An additional bonus to the adjustable arms is the wide range of alignment specs that you have at your disposal. Increase caster, track width, and negative camber all at once.
 

LS1EATINPONY

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Can you please explain this? I'm not sure that you're correct in that assertion...

I guess where I was getting at is it was needed if it was going to be lowered a great deal. I know I ran my car with no bumpsteer kit for a couple months after installing my coilovers and after the install I lost the constant jerking around after hitting bumps and such. Car was unpredictable even at slow speeds on the street. Thats what I meant. Im sorry. I forgot people like an explanation ( which I am in no means knocking because I am a "WHY" or "HOW" guy) for everything. I could still be wrong in my assumption but I know if made my car much easier to drive daily.
 

SoundGuyDave

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I guess where I was getting at is it was needed if it was going to be lowered a great deal. I know I ran my car with no bumpsteer kit for a couple months after installing my coilovers and after the install I lost the constant jerking around after hitting bumps and such. Car was unpredictable even at slow speeds on the street. Thats what I meant. Im sorry. I forgot people like an explanation ( which I am in no means knocking because I am a "WHY" or "HOW" guy) for everything. I could still be wrong in my assumption but I know if made my car much easier to drive daily.

I don't want to take you to task for it, but "off the cuff" comments like you originally posted are probably the biggest reason behind "internet myths" that seem to just never die.... A newb that has no idea what's going on with suspension geometry pops in, sees "If you lower your car, you'll need a bump-steer kit" and takes it as pure gospel. No qualification, no footnote, so he orders a set of springs with a 3/4" drop and a bump-steer kit... Simply NOT needed in that application. I've had mine as low as 1.75" down from stock, and run the bumpsteer curve on a computerized alignment machine with that specific function, and had no need to compensate, even with an additional 1.5" of compression. I did wind up putting on a bump-steer kit,not to correct the geometry, but to get a spherical bearing in place of the ball/socket stock joint after burning a boot up from brake heat, and not wanting to have to keep replacing them. This was also before the high-temp boots were more readily available, I should add. Now, after I did extended-stud ball joints, hell yes, there was need for correction.

At the risk of sounding like a prick, I would submit that your increase in drivability had less to do with corrected bump-steer curve, and more to do with a better alignment. At the absolute extreme ends of the suspension cycle, yes, there is some bump-steer induced, but if you were slammed enough to get into that area of the curve (where the length differentials between the tie rod and control arm start to become significant), you'd essentially be sitting on the bump-stops. The fact that you report a noticeable change after installing the bump-stop kit (which won't keep the car off the bump-stops) leads me to believe that you weren't in that range. The only other change in there would be the standard camber/caster/toe alignment angles. Changing from an excessive amount of toe-out to a more neutral setting will certainly make the car more predictable.

Just thinking out loud.
 

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