Seat belt question

stevbd

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I have a 2011 GT. I've noticed the front passenger seat has a traditional ratcheting style seatbelt retractor, where if you pull the belt all the way out it will "ratchet" and lock as you let it wind back up. But for some reason the driver side doesn't have this feature and only locks if you pull quickly on it. I would like to swap in the passenger style ratcheting retractor on the driver side, to more easily and firmly secure the seat belt for track days.

Has anyone done this? Is it possible? Thanks.
 

travelers

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Interesting question, I looked at my CD manual and it may bolt up but you may also get a code in the Restraints Control Module.
 

Sky Render

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stevbd

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Why yes, yes I have:

http://www.motoiq.com/MagazineArticles/ID/4277/Tested-Schroth-Quick-Fit-Harnesses.aspx

But you should only use them for AutoX, not a track day. (They're only a 4-point harness.)

I understand the history on this but a lot of people are using them at track days and passing tech. BMWCCA and PCA in particular. For whatever reason the clubs are becoming more accepting of the Schroth 4-points.

Concerning other posts, I was hoping to find an OEM solution that locks both the waist and shoulder belts (CG lock is waist only) and doesn't require additional belts, mounting points, and debate about what is safe or tested.

Thanks for the feedback everyone.
 

46addict

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The only OEM solution I can think of that snugs up the waist and shoulder is to pull the shoulder belt tight then scoot the seat forward.
 

46addict

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No, because there is a risk of your body sliding underneath the harness in a crash with a 4 point. The risk goes up in a car where your legs are nearly parallel with the floor. The Schroth is a 4 point that is ASM rated (anti-submarining) which may or may not help satisfy tech inspection at a track day, but the ones that are not labeled ASM will not pass.

I did some reading on this and went into a rabbit hole. One thing I took away is that when you use harnesses like this, your head/neck does not have the movement it does with a stock belt. So your neck will get the impact in a rollover. This necessitates a proper roll cage to reduce roof cave ins, and a cage requires a helmet so you don't bash your head into a bar. In some states driving on public roads with a helmet and/or using a harness is illegal because the harness has not been tested with the OE airbags and seats so it is not NHTSA approved, etc. Not to mention the looks you will get wearing a helmet on the street.

So what I got from this is that you either go with a harness/cage/helmet/and maybe a suit, or leave all stock equipment as is since it's designed to work as a package. Blending street and race systems introduces unknowns.

Going back to the original question, I don't understand why a 4 point may pass dragstrip tech but it won't get through track tech. Hitting a wall at a dragstrip versus hitting a wall at a track still puts the driver at risk of submarining. So why is there a difference here?
 

SoundGuyDave

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Guys, think about safety gear as part of a comprehensive package, and a lot of this will make sense. The OEM 3-point belt will stretch due to the lengths of the legs involved, and that will decelerate your torso and head. This *RELATIVELY* gentle deceleration is complemented by those soft, pillowy airbags (again, relatively speaking) which are the final link in the impact mitigation. This is, of course, looking at a frontal impact, but as a system, it works, and works well. LOTS of testing went into the safety systems in modern cars, and you'd be foolish to simply discard them because they're not efficient at locking you into the seat in high-G cornering situations.

In comparison, the multi-point belt (6-point for example) is designed to clamp your torso in the seat, and generally anticipates the use of a HANS device (or analog thereof) to reduce or eliminate head and neck movement. A 3-point will let your body slump forward, the multi-point won't.

Where things get tricky is with the fitment of the multi-point belt. A 3-point, virtually by definition, will place the lap portion of the belt across the iliac crest of the pelvis, which is the strongest portion of that bone. As the length of the belt isn't that long, it won't stretch that much. Now, contrast that with a 6-point harness. There are two, shorter lap belts that meet at a central buckle. IF those aren't installed at the right angle, the buckle will ride up, off the pelvis, and onto the abdomen, which is filled with all kinds of squishy stuff like liver, spleen, intestines, and if you go back far enough, kidneys. NOT what you want to use to hold yourself in a seat in the event of a crash. The shoulder belts of the 6-point will tend to pull the buckle up and off the iliac crest as well in an impact, as a result of your torso trying to go forward. The final two belts, the ANTI-SUBMARINE belts, are there for one reason and one reason only: to keep that all-important lap belt across your pelvis. They don't grab your legs and keep you from sliding forward or under, the pull DOWN on the lap belt, and THAT keeps you from sliding forward and under.

Where the real issue comes in is with belt mounting and fitment. I can't count how many times I've seen multi-point belts installed improperly, with poor angles on the lap belts, bad anchor points for the shoulder belts, and improper routing of the anti-subs. I've also wound up holding a student on grid while I get my passenger-side belts adjusted to be even remotely safe. I have, no kidding, jumped into a car and found the anti-subs would let the buckle ride up at mid-chest height. Even if you pull the laps brutally tight, as soon as you tighten the shoulders, the buckle rides up. This is NOT a safe solution if you're going to be out on track or on the street. Before you use a multi-point belt, it needs to be properly fitted for the driver (and instructor, if any). I'm 5'10" and 155lbs, and if my 5'8" 225lb buddy hops in, it's not a trivial exercise to get him properly snugged in. GOOD belts help. I use the Schroth Enduro harness in my car, and the adjusters are designed for multiple-driver situations. Very quick, very slick, very easy to manipulate with gloves on, and very expensive. If you're the only guy driving your car, that's an expense you don't need to carry, particularly since the belts are 5-year items.

Speaking as a racer and an instructor, stick with the stock 3-points until the time comes when you're willing to make a commitment to a complete safety package. I would even go so far as to say that until you're ready to cage the car, stick with the OEM stuff. No, it won't lock you in place like a 6-point will. But the 6-point requires a proper racing seat (which is yet another benefit, and yet another cost), harness bar or cage, and a HANS to function properly. They're also illegal on the street. Whether that makes sense or not is open for debate, but that's just the way it is... If a paramedic ever needed to get you out of a car in a hurry, trying to find and then figure out a latch-link buckle is not to your advantage. With a 3-point, you can cut one belt (lap opposite the buckle) and the occupant is OUT of the car. Not so much with a 6-point.

The bottom line in safety is to look at the reasons you want to make a change. If the only one is that you slide around in the seat and the 3-point is too much hassle to ratchet tight, then just imagine how simple and easy it'll be to climb in past your door bars, drop down into a full containment seat, get the buckle out from under your ass, and then find the other four belts, click them in the right holes, and then pull them tight... MUCH easier to click the OE belt in! Now, if you're moving at the speed of heat and just passed a Tomahawk missile on the last straight, then maybe you should think about a comprehensive package upgrade. But at that point, the needle is so deep in the vein, you're probably shopping trailers and tow vehicles as well...
 

stevbd

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So how do you instructors and racers feel about the Scroth 4 points with their ASM (Anti Sub Marine) feature?

I'm definitely not going "speed of heat" lol. But I am going fast enough where I am wasting a lot of energy bracing myself from sliding around in the seat, and not driving as well or smoothly as I could as a result. So I am looking for a safe solution that locks me down a little better, while still allowing me to take my kids to school and drive to work the next day without removing roll bars and race seats. I don't mind a minute of setup time before a session, that's not my issue. Right now I am jerking the OEM belt tight and then adjusting the seat into it, but that sometimes is a pain and not very accurate for getting the seat exactly where I like it.

Thus my original post.

My understanding is the Schroth ASM lets one of the vertical shoulder belts stretch a little more than the other in the event of a crash, thus allowing your body to torque a bit and prevent pulling up the lap belt. Do I have that about right? If I do, would you be comfortable running these ASM style 4 point belts alone without a roll cage, HANS, etc.? Or should I do as I think you are saying, and just stay with OEM 3 point?

Thanks for your help and insight, much appreciated.
 

AndrewNagle

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So how do you instructors and racers feel about the Scroth 4 points with their ASM (Anti Sub Marine) feature?

I'm definitely not going "speed of heat" lol. But I am going fast enough where I am wasting a lot of energy bracing myself from sliding around in the seat, and not driving as well or smoothly as I could as a result. So I am looking for a safe solution that locks me down a little better, while still allowing me to take my kids to school and drive to work the next day without removing roll bars and race seats. I don't mind a minute of setup time before a session, that's not my issue. Right now I am jerking the OEM belt tight and then adjusting the seat into it, but that sometimes is a pain and not very accurate for getting the seat exactly where I like it.

Thus my original post.

My understanding is the Schroth ASM lets one of the vertical shoulder belts stretch a little more than the other in the event of a crash, thus allowing your body to torque a bit and prevent pulling up the lap belt. Do I have that about right? If I do, would you be comfortable running these ASM style 4 point belts alone without a roll cage, HANS, etc.? Or should I do as I think you are saying, and just stay with OEM 3 point?

Thanks for your help and insight, much appreciated.
That is how I read it and have bought them and feel safer than with my OEM

40556f5a9c99e8ea25f3d50760ac3176.jpg


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bf37ecb89e9dbd4ad8a3aeb348d03efe.jpg
 

Norm Peterson

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Just a passing thought for anybody who feels they're sliding around too much . . . are you tensing up at all, pulling down on the steering wheel, or pushing hard against the footwell/dead pedal? Or are you more relaxed except for flexing at the ankle for braking/throttle and a little upper-body effort to move the steering wheel?

I think that the closer you can emulate a sack of grain sitting in the seat, the less difficulty you'll have. This uses you own body weight to best advantage by not unweighting any of you from the seat You'll still use your knee against the door in right-handers, but you'll go all day without it bothering you to do so. This probably takes practice and a fair bit of practice at g's somewhere beyond 0.5.


Norm
 

ddd4114

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AndrewNagle, it's a little hard to tell in the picture, but the lap belts appear to already be too high. It looks like the buckle is around your belly button. Your lap belts should be positioned like a belt, or you'll have the issues Dave mentioned above. It will also work against whatever anti-submarining design the belts have. I don't know what the instructions say for installing and wearing them, but you might want to double-check them. I'd be surprised if they don't specify a lower position for the buckle, but again, it's a little hard to tell in the picture.


I was in a similar situation a few years ago, and while my car is now a dedicated track car, it can still be driven on the street. After doing a lot of thinking and reading, I decided the only acceptable compromise was a roll bar, race seats, 6-point harnesses (5-point harnesses would be OK but are a little... uncomfortable), and a HANS (or equivalent). I installed the seats in a way that I can still use the factory 3-point system including airbags. On the street, it IS less safe in a side impact because I removed the airbags in the seats, but that's part of the compromise I accepted. A truck and trailer aren't practical for me to own right now, so I wanted to keep the car somewhat street-worthy. However, that itself is also a big compromise.

I used the OEM belt/seat system for the first few years of tracking me car, and a CG lock helped a LOT for reducing fatigue. However, at some point, you will need more support, and that's when you need to make a decision: keep the car as a comfortable, practical street car and accept that it will let you move around on a track, or start converting it into a dedicated track car. In my opinion and experience, you can't really blend the two. If you're going fast enough that you think you need a 4-point harness, you should really consider your intentions for the car. If you rely on it to get to work or pick up your kids, I think this is the transition point at which you need to get another car. Either keep the car's performance and how hard you push it under the limit above which you think you need harnesses, or get another commuter car. Yes, it's a lot more expensive than a set of belts, but if you really want to go faster, you'll thank me in a few years. Having done this before, it's a PITA to maintain a track car that you still drive to work, and it's too risky.

As mentioned above, if you're just using it for autocrossing and can easily install a 4-point harness and go back to the 3-point system during the week, I think that's fine. While accidents can still happen at autocrosses, they're very rare, and they probably won't be at 100+ mph. However, I don't think a 4-point system is an acceptable solution for a race track or even on the street. There HAVE been deaths at race tracks in recent years involving people wearing 4-point harnesses and submarining. I don't know how many (if any) of them were using an ASM 4-point system, but those are still vulnerable to the way they're installed and worn. While a 5-point or 6-point harness can still be installed and worn incorrectly, they're more forgiving because the 5th/6th straps will still prevent you from submarining even if the lap belts are worn a little too high. They might leave some marks, but your internal organs will probably survive. Like Dave, I've also seen incorrectly mounted 5-point or 6-point systems that are probably less safe than the factory 3-point system. The shoulder belts are mounted at sharp angles, the lap belts are mounted far too forward, etc. Fortunately, I'm not an instructor; I'm just a track rat, so I can easily just decline an offer to ride in the car. Just because there are more attachment points and just because you move around less in the seat, that doesn't mean the system is more safe. Please don't assume that something is better just because it's aftermarket or advertised as a racing product.

The bottom line is that your safety isn't worth a gamble. I have a friend who crashed his car wearing a 5-point belt with no HANS, and he spent WAY more in medical bills over the years than if he had just worn the appropriate safety gear from the beginning. It could have been a lot worse; it could have been terminal. Yes, that's a slightly different situation than the discussion here, but I think that sentiment still applies. Sorry for the long-winded response, but hopefully this helps you think more carefully about what you want to do.
 

SoundGuyDave

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WAYYYYY above the iliac crest... That buckle is above your navel, and is supported not by bone, but by internal organs. In a 15mph crash, that'll hurt, and may cause internal injury. In a 100mph crash, that will kill. This is also EXACTLY the point that I was making about fitment. When you put them on, and pull the lap belts tight, they're probably in about the right spot. Then, you tighten the shoulder straps to lock you in the seat, and it pulls the lap upward. It doesn't matter how tight you have the laps pulled, they will ride up and over the illiac crest with that setup. The OE 3-point won't ride up because the vertical tension on the belt is directly between two anchor points (the buckle and the B-pillar guide), so more tension doesn't affect the lap portion. To be honest, the bulk of the "hold me in the seat" happens in the lap portion in a stock setup, and the CG-Lock does a fantastic job of letting you tension that to your heart's content.

A couple of quotes from the Schroth:

"After choosing the correct seating position, put the belt on and adjust the lap belt so it fits tightly in the bend between the pelvic crest and the upper thigh. The release buckle should be located in the center in front of your body. (HINT-slide the seat back-tighten the lap belt–move the seat forward to
maximize lap belt tightness.)" From the Mustang-specific ASM installation manual. (https://www.schrothracing.com/docs/Mustang_Instructions.pdf) That's no different than working with a 3-point, but note the emphasis on where the lap belt should ride. Now look at the photo again.

"This harness is not compatible with HANS or any other head and neck restraint devices." From the Schroth website. (https://www.schrothracing.com/products/rallye-belts) To me, this means that there isn't enough clamping force on the shoulder belts to wedge the HANS against your chest to provide the anchor for your neck tethers. This means that there shouldn't be significant tension on the shoulder harnesses...

I have to echo what trip-D said above... If you want/need the performance of a multi-point belt either for comfort or safety, then you really need to assess your goals and devise a safety plan based on that. I advocate two steps, OE and full-race, but the midway type does work, at least in the short-term. That would be a full back-half cage, properly mounted race seats and harnesses, HANS device with helmet, and a pulled RCM fuse to disable the airbags when on track. It's illegal, technically, to run the multi-point belts on the street, and you'll lose the deceleration effects of the OE belts if you DO crash on the street (presumably without HANS and helmet!), and that's why I don't really suggest that approach. Plus, to be honest, a good containment seat is a PITA to get in and out of on a daily basis, and the head-restraint "wings" can block peripheral vision.

ALWAYS assess the worst-case scenario when looking at safety packages. What is the fastest speed you see entering a braking zone? Plan on a rotor shattering RIGHT THERE and then figure out what you would want at that instant for a safety package...

Here's what that can look like:
250kph, no brakes, no "racing incident" precipitating it. 250kph is about 155mph, easily achievable by a "track day" Mustang with a Coyote. If that was you, would you be comfortable with a 4-point set up like the photo above?
 

46addict

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But at that point, the needle is so deep in the vein, you're probably shopping trailers and tow vehicles as well...

Needle so deep in the vein..nice analogy.

Just a passing thought for anybody who feels they're sliding around too much . . . are you tensing up at all, pulling down on the steering wheel, or pushing hard against the footwell/dead pedal? Or are you more relaxed except for flexing at the ankle for braking/throttle and a little upper-body effort to move the steering wheel?

I think that the closer you can emulate a sack of grain sitting in the seat, the less difficulty you'll have. This uses you own body weight to best advantage by not unweighting any of you from the seat You'll still use your knee against the door in right-handers, but you'll go all day without it bothering you to do so. This probably takes practice and a fair bit of practice at g's somewhere beyond 0.5.

Norm

I'm a little guy. 5'8" 155lbs. I found my neck tilting with the body of the car around turns at Roebling Road and my forearms were getting tired from holding my body weight with my hands/arms. No issues with legs or ankles getting tired. For the first 15 minutes or so I was fighting to keep my neck upright but after that I gave up and let my body slide with the current. And this is on a car with 300 UTQG Nittos and lowering springs/Konis. Nothing special here. I can't imagine pushing the envelope on a faster car with better tires and suspension with stock interior.
 

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