Sky Render's Build Thread

[2013DIBGT]

Just a thought for further consideration in terms of the Phase 2 options. Have you considered just going to the 302S FLCA w/Howe balls setup?

I can tell you from experience that the replacememt FLCA from Ford with the "Improved" Heat Shield is pretty much garbage also. Barely better then the non-shielded unit it replaces then you still have the damn non replaceable Ball J in the factory arms to come back and haunt you later and you have to do it all over again.

Doing the Bumpsteer process is pretty shitty and not something I would want to do very often (maybe once a lifetime..Lol). To add to that, if you arent doing this all yourself shops with experience setting up Bumpsteer are very few and far between.

Doah..another edit...Noticed you were thinking the Steeda Ball J in factory arms..if you go that route you may also want to consider tack welding those, I've seen more then a few reports of them having failures either popping out due to the hole in the FLCA fitment being less then ideal or the balls themself not being robust enough which then brings about other issues if they are welded in place.

I have a set sitting on the shelf that I decided not to use because of getting cold feet after seeing the issues some were having with them. This then prompted me to bite the billet and just go with the 302S setup instead. The 302S setup has been bulletproof for me thus far and have no regrets in that setup. I have a very hard 25K on mine thus far with no noticeable NVH or noise issues.

Just a thought to ponder

 

[Sky Render]

I have an '11 and have to worry about the EPAS wigging out when I put a different control arm on.

While I agree that the stock arms leave much to be desired, they're as durable as depleted uranium, inexpensive at only $90 each, and they don't require me to install a $1,000 steering rack.

Do you have a link about the failures in Steeda's ball joints? I flat-out won't use them if they're that failure prone, though I will still install the bumpsteer kit.

...or would the bumpsteer kit be worthless with the stock-height ball joints?

EDIT:
Also, Maximum Motorsports told me that the spherical bearing in their CC plates "don't fail" and told me I had to get out a dial indicator and take a bunch of measurements to prove that it did indeed fail. What's the point of having a warranty if you're going to act like your customers are trying to pull one over on you?

 

[2013DIBGT]

Heres a few links.. There's others out there. While not exactly an epidemic there are enough discussions to give one pause.

Yeah the Epas issue is a bitch, so in that case it does raise other concerns with getting too fancy if on a budget.

https://themustangsource.com/forums/f821/issue-steeda-x11-balljoints-sla-boss-comp-lcas-526766/

http://www.s197forum.com/forum/showthread.php?t=108817&page=4

http://www.allfordmustangs.com/foru...366242-steeda-x11-extended-ball-joints-2.html

 

[stevbd]

I have an '11 and have to worry about the EPAS wigging out when I put a different control arm on.

While I agree that the stock arms leave much to be desired, they're as durable as depleted uranium, inexpensive at only $90 each, and they don't require me to install a $1,000 steering rack.

Do you have a link about the failures in Steeda's ball joints? I flat-out won't use them if they're that failure prone, though I will still install the bumpsteer kit.

...or would the bumpsteer kit be worthless with the stock-height ball joints?

EDIT:
Also, Maximum Motorsports told me that the spherical bearing in their CC plates "don't fail" and told me I had to get out a dial indicator and take a bunch of measurements to prove that it did indeed fail. What's the point of having a warranty if you're going to act like your customers are trying to pull one over on you?

Sky, my understanding is that bump steer kits aren't necessary if you keep the LCA and tie rod stock. I have an '11 like you and also am thinking about the LCA, and for all the reasons you state I think I'll just stay stock.

I have the Vorshlag bilstein kit with P springs and to start messing with aftermarket control arms, for me, feels like a PITA and $$ solution in search of a problem I don't have. The car is rock solid tracking down the road, etc., no problem with bump steer that I can feel. And it's a ton of fun on the track.

As an aside, I kind of wish I had gone with the K springs instead of the P, the P sit a little high for my taste when combined with my 18" wheels and the bilsteins. It's just anecdotal, but I swear the bilsteins give a little bump up in ride height, which is pretty well documented as occurring since they are a high pressure charged shock.

That is all aesthetic, though, I am very very pleased with how the car drives which is the important thing.

Nice looking build and thanks for all the documenting you do, I always enjoy reading your build thread.

 

[Sky Render]

Are the ball joints on the 302S arms taller than the stock ones?

My concern is that my front roll center is underground right now, which would explain my extreme front body roll, even with all the work I've done to the suspension. The increase in roll center height was the driving factor in swapping the ball joints.

 

[SoundGuyDave]

Simple answer is that if you've lowered the car, the roll center up front has dropped. Period. IF you feel that is an issue, then then solution is to lengthen the ball joint stud or raise the attachement points on the inboard end of the LCA. Either one will create a bump-steer issue that then needs a bump-steer kit to correct.

The 302S arms are factory arms without rear bushings, and with a 3/4" taller ball joint stud. I believe, but am not certain, they are the Howe joints.

FWIW, I have X5's on stock arms right now, and have somewhere around 100 track hours on them with no slop. I'm not saying they are better or worse than the Howe joints, but I haven't had any issues with them. Installation was indeed a PITA, but that was mostly getting the stock joints out.

On the subject of durability, I'll just ask one question: Are the reports of the Steeda joint failures on primarily street-driven cars, or on full-on race cars? In many ways, the street is a MUCH more destructive place to suspension components than the track is. Yes, the track will give higher overall loads (particularly with sticky tires!), but the transient peaks you see from potholes are probably an order of magnitude greater than anything you could generate leaning into a corner... If it IS the case that the failures are primarily on street cars, then this may just be a case of "race parts belong on a race cars."

 

[stevbd]

To give you a sense of body roll, this is my car with the Vorshlag kit you are thinking of using. Except I have the P springs instead of K. Rest of suspension is stock except for the Vorshlag camber plates that come with the kit.

http://www.clarusstudios.com/client...3a16ee#photo=57aafa8d2fdd8a01c8a81f45f23d23dc

EDIT: that is with street MPSS tires.

 

[Sky Render]

Well, my car is primarily street driven, so I definitely am concerned with durability. Is it possible to use the 302S arms with the stock bushings?

You're also saying that a bumpsteer kit is pointless unless you're also installing taller ball joints?

To give you a sense of body roll, this is my car with the Vorshlag kit you are thinking of using. Except I have the P springs instead of K. Rest of suspension is stock except for the Vorshlag camber plates that come with the kit.

http://www.clarusstudios.com/client...3a16ee#photo=57aafa8d2fdd8a01c8a81f45f23d23dc

EDIT: that is with street MPSS tires.

That body roll looks a bit better than what I'm currently experiencing.

 

[stevbd]

One more to show what it looks like without suspension loading:

http://www.clarusstudios.com/client...7034fd#photo=7b7eec3edb1245b0902d3bf3ebd3d561

As you can see it sits pretty high. Grrr. So the raised roll center is a tradeoff....

 

[ExSRT8Guy]

My car had K springs on it when I bought it. Never tracked it with those, so I can't compare there, but the P springs are way nicer on the street.

To give you a sense of body roll, this is my car with the Vorshlag kit you are thinking of using. Except I have the P springs instead of K. Rest of suspension is stock except for the Vorshlag camber plates that come with the kit.

http://www.clarusstudios.com/client...3a16ee#photo=57aafa8d2fdd8a01c8a81f45f23d23dc

EDIT: that is with street MPSS tires.

Are you running the same wheels/tires in the non-cornering pic? What are they? Sorry for the semi-hijack.

 

[stevbd]

My car had K springs on it when I bought it. Never tracked it with those, so I can't compare there, but the P springs are way nicer on the street.



Are you running the same wheels/tires in the non-cornering pic? What are they? Sorry for the semi-hijack.

Yes same in all pics. Apex EC-7 18x9.5, 35mm, 275/40/18 square.

 

[SoundGuyDave]

Well, my car is primarily street driven, so I definitely am concerned with durability. Is it possible to use the 302S arms with the stock bushings?

You're also saying that a bumpsteer kit is pointless unless you're also installing taller ball joints?

The stock Hydro bushings are bonded to the control arms at manufacture, so there's no "simple" way to pull 'em off the old arms and slap them on the new ones. The 302S arms come with a bare stub at the rear end, and are intended for the end-user to add their own poly or delrin bushings. The OE service replacement for the rear Hydro bushings is to simply replace the arm as an assembly...

Roll center and bump-steer are simply dictated by the geometry of the front end. Roll center is defined as the point where two lines intersect. Center of the ball-joint through the axis of the lower pivot point (bushings) defines the line, and where the line from each side intersects is the roll center point. If you lower the car, the pivot point drops, and the line tips downward, taking the intersection (and thus roll center) with it.

Bump-steer is dependent on the change in arcs between the control arm and the tie-rod end as the suspension cycles. Stock, even lowered, the tie-rod is pretty much parallel with the control arm, and bump-steer effects are quite minimal, just the way the factory likes it. If you extend the ball-joint stud or relocate the inboard pivot points, the control arm and tie-rod are now operating on two very different arcs, and that differential induces toe angle changes as the suspension cycles. All a bump-steer kit does is extend the stud length of the tie-rod end, making the arm and tie-rod parallel again. If you do the 302S arms, you could do the FR500C tie rod (M3130-R2) as well, and that would be "good enough" as a fix. The full-on bump-steer kits (Steeda, MM, etc) have a tapered stud that fits in the steering arm of the knuckle, and have a straight stud below. You move spacers on and off that stud to adjust the "height" of the tie-rod end to eliminate bump-steer. It's more precise than the 500C tie-rod end, but takes a good bit of time, effort, and cursing to get really dialed in.

This really is a case of "everything depends on everything else." If you slam the car to the ground, you gain in terms of CG, but you lose in terms of RCH. Correct the RCH, and you need supporting mods to make it work. Personally, I think the vendors should be selling lowering springs packaged with all the supporting crap needed to really do it right. That would be struts and shocks with shortened casings and proper damping curves, camber plates, control arms with extended ball joint studs and proper bushings, a bump-steer kit or tie rod to compensate for the arms, and a six-pack of good beer to help you get through the installation... ;-) Of course, that might cut down on their sales, particularly to the "hella flush" crowd...

My understanding of the feedback issue with the '11 racks is that it was caused by the addition of "hard" bushings in the control arm, and that the fix was to re-flash the rack with the motorsports "tune." At the time Terry was fighting the problem, that re-flash (module?) wasn't available, and he wound up buying a full rack. Is it available now? That would be the easy button. Otherwise, you'd need to just bite the bullet and swap racks to a 302R piece. That really just comes down to cost-of-doing-business.

 

[Sky Render]

You cannot reflash the rack; you have to replace it.

Completely asinine on Ford's part. The BOSS rack is like $1,000, too. Apparently the issue was fixed in late 2012 production, so if I could find a '13-14 rack I could run different bushings, too.

I think for now, I'm going to just replace the LCA with stock. And I might do that first, just because it's only a couple bolts and there is a slim chance that hydro bushing is causing the clunk.

 

[2013DIBGT]

Just a few other pieces of info about the 302S Arm setup which I thought were strong selling points should you consider it at some point in the future:

1. The Howe BJ is threaded into the OEM'ish FLCA via a sleeve which is then welded onto the Arm itself (nicely welded and very sturdy). This of course means you can now replace the BJ easily if/when it fails without too much drama. Its also grease-able.

2. As SoundGuyDave mentioned, the 302S FLCA's come out of the box with no bushings installed. This was a big plus in my mind. No need to dick around with burning out the Hydro-bushing on a new set of OEM Arms if your initial intention is to replace those with Poly units anyway.

3. The 302S Bushing Kit (At least mine) came with a Poly (Prothane) bushing setup and a Derlin Kit. I chose to use the Poly kit mainly out of laziness. The steel sleeves on the Front Derlin kit appeared to require a Press to get into the Arms that I didn't have nor did I want to mangle them in the process even if I did. If either of the F/R Poly bushings fail, they can easily be removed without the need for a Press.

Only time will tell how long this kit will last beyond the OEM kit but as it stands now, the 302S setup has long outlasted two sets of revised "Improved" OEM FLCA's on my car which see's 15-20K street miles a year on pothole ridden Northeast roads.

I should also point out that my car isn't slammed to the ground either in case anyone is wondering why I kept needing to replace the OEM units. The Front is dropped 1" or 1 1/4" depending on side measured due to corner balancing. The first set of OEM Hydro bushings failed before any suspension mods were done. The "Revised/Improved" second set started to fail not long before Mods were done and went tits up quickly there after the Mods were complete ultimately forcing me to seek a better alternative.

There are pics in my Sig for anyone wanting to see the parts being discussed up close if you haven't already seen them before.

 

[Pentalab]

One more to show what it looks like without suspension loading:

http://www.clarusstudios.com/client...7034fd#photo=7b7eec3edb1245b0902d3bf3ebd3d561

As you can see it sits pretty high. Grrr. So the raised roll center is a tradeoff....

I have 275-40-18's on the front of my 2010. With Roush springs + oem struts, its 1/2" lower. (With roush springs + roush struts it was 1" lower, busted a strut, and replaced both struts with oem struts).

Looking at your pix (and u are also using 275-40-18) I'd say you have way less than 1/2" drop...looks like stock ride height to my eye. I have less tire to top of wheel well gap..and that's with only a 1/2" drop. What is your distance from ground to wheel well arch ?

So sky render may well be better off with K springs...which are also a little stiffer vs P springs...both front + rear. Even then, with the Vorshlag kit, + K springs, he might be looking at 1/2" - 3/4" drop tops. Jason may well have the answer.

 

[Pentalab]

Doing the Bump steer process is pretty shitty and not something I would want to do very often (maybe once a lifetime..Lol). To add to that, if you arent doing this all yourself shops with experience setting up Bumpsteer are very few and far between.

I looked at the steeda bump steer kit manual a few years back.... and it looked like a cluster to install. In the instructions, to tweak it, the suspension has to be loaded down really good. The only way I could come up with to fully load both sides of the front suspension, would be to use a drive on lift...then use a pair of cum-a-longs from frame to ground, to suck the front end way down. Then it's tweaked, then suspension put back to idle ride height, then re-checked, plus wheel alignment done for camber + toe. Then re-loaded to max and re-checked.

How else can you load the front suspension ?
https://www.steeda.com/assets/documents/555-8106.pdf

Edit: Ok, so you do require a drive on lift + come-a-longS...and several hrs to get the bumps steer kit installed and aligned correctly. I wasn't prepared to spend an entire day on this. Very few places here in town have drive on lifts, I would go broke in the process..with still no guarantee it was done right.

 

[Sky Render]

A true bump steer measurement is a lot of trial and error. You can get very close by setting the tie rods parallel to the control arms.

 

[SoundGuyDave]

There is no magic measuring equipment needed, just patience. It's actually easier and faster to do the bump-steer with bare struts (no springs) installed.

1) Install the springs/struts/plates (take all slack out of the strut/knuckle interface towards negative camber), settle the suspension, then measure from the ground to a spot of the frame. Write that down.

2) Align the car for camber, caster and toe (string method: google it), then tear down the suspension and pull the springs. DO NOT MOVE THE CC PLATES!

3) Use a jack on the K-member to get the car to ride-height without springs, and to drop 1" for bump-steer measurements. Move the spacers around as needed until you get minimal toe-angle change. (NOTE: toe does not need to be to spec at this point, you're looking for the CHANGE, not the actual number!)

4) Re-assemble the suspension with springs, settle the car, then re-set the toe to spec. Test drive.


Note that this is MUCH easier on a car with coil-overs as you can just drop the adjuster an inch, then jack the car back up to ride-height...

 

[Sky Render]

Some CC plates lose their setting when uninstalled. Other than that, that's an excellent idea.

 

[SoundGuyDave]

Yes, they do. Pull the center nut that holds the strut to the plate; nothing on the plate should shift, or it's a crap design.

This trick will require spring compressors if you're running stock-height springs, but with most "lowering springs," the free length is short enough that there's no real tension on the strut at full droop.