Squeaking and rotor hitting caliper after gear change

mtgldr

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Long post but I have run out of ideas (banged head too long) and searched to no avail for answers. Trying to provide as much information.

A little background;
I had Ford replace my rear gears and clutch pack with FRP parts installing 3.55’s replacing the 4.10’s 90 days ago. Complete new bearings using the full Ford kit. Since then I have been hearing a slight squeak when I make a hard right turn at slow speeds. At first I thought it may have just been tire noise (old 4.10 did whine a bit), once I realized the sound was more metal like than tire like I thought it may just be the clutch packs needing to seat but after 60 days the noise was still there and it’s clearly a squeak like metal on metal not suspension bushings or tire rubbing. I did not have this sound before Ford installed the gears and I have had the rear gears changed twice in this car.

I pulled the rear wheels to see if something was rubbing somewhere and found the driver’s side caliper inner pad was about 15% worn while the 3 other pads on the rear were about 50% worn. Pads have been on the car for @ 2 years.

Since the rotors were factory and the LR caliper was apparently not applying evenly I replaced the rotors, pads and calipers. When I removed the RR caliper I discovered a couple shiny spots on the side portion of the caliper where it’s supposed to clear the rotor indicating to me the caliper was rubbing on the rotor. There were no groves just shiny spots so this was not a constant rub and I never heard a constant rubbing sound. I figured I had found the reason for the squeaking. New Rotors, new calipers and I should be good. I figured the rear axles themselves could not have enough play in them to cause the rotor to contact the caliper without something being very wrong so it must be the caliper.

And… the sound is still there when making right turns. I read a post where due to axle play, someone’s rotors were coming in contact with the metal clips that the pads sit on in the calipers and also a couple posts that spoke about wrong axle lengths being put in a car causing issues but nothing about the possibility of the axles getting swapped unintentionally from left to right.

I am also now hearing the whirring sound of rear axle bearings getting louder. The mechanic said I had a lot of tire noise, I thought that’s odd since I didn’t have tire noise before I had the gears changed. My 4.10 gears whined but I did not have the bearing whirr or the squeak I do now.

Searching axle length did not yield much but this thread http://www.s197forum.com/forum/showthread.php?t=105692&highlight=axles+length

The original Post asks:
I looked at different lengths and can't seem to find a definite answer. Alloy USA lists theirs at 31 11/16" and 32 13/16" (LR & RR respectively) while Moser lists theirs at 31 13/16" and 31 11/16". Dorman has the same sizes as Alloy USA.

I understand this was about the Alloy drivers side axle being short but it’s the only post I could find with dimensions.

SR Performance lists the lengths as 32.81 & 31.68 32 13/16” & 31 11/16”

Moser list’s the Drivers side as 31.687 31 11/16” but the OP stated the 31 13/16” Alloy axle for the Drivers was too short and there were several replied saying to buy the Moser’s.

There is also over an inch difference in length between what this post states the RR axle length is between Moser, Dorman, SRP & Alloy.

Bottom line is I have no idea what the heck the axle lengths are so I here’s my question;


Before I go down a bad path and take the rear apart, I need to understand:

1) If the axle length difference is .125” or 1.125” from left to right and if the difference is .125" is it possible to install the axles in the wrong side? If this was possible I would have a long axle in the RR and due to previously worn bearing patterns, by swapping the axles that could easily cause the axle bearings to now make noise.


2) Are there different thickness spacers/washers that are behind the spider gears the axles go through?

3) Is it possible to switch the right and left spider gears and spacers and allow for the axles to be installed in reverse?

I realize the axle swap is a longshot but if that’s not what happened I really have no idea what was not put back together correctly. If you guys have some idea's I'll either go back to Ford or buy parts and fix it myself. I am not going to mess with the pinion or the carrier bearing shims, if that is a potential cause I will go back to Ford.

If anyone has any input or suggestions of what else to check I am sure open to trying anything.

Thanks,

Scott
 

Marble

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I would not replace or try to fix anything. At this point you have already altered the brakes by replacing. The dealership will look at any little thing to point a finger at say it's your fault.

I would bring it back to them and discuss it.

My initial gut feeling when reading your post is a bent axle. My second is improper install on the differential and lastly something to do with the bearings.

It doesn't seen they could swap left/right and have it work at all...

But drop an axle and bend it...I could see that.
 

Totheboards

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Just a thought based off my experience... Had a whirring noise that developed right after I bought the car (~24k miles). Changed sound around right-hand corners. Long story short, ended up being the carrier bearings making the noise. They were pitted pretty bad and they didn't have much preload left on them from the factory 1-piece shims. Rebuilt the whole thing, no more strange noises. Maybe not enough preload on your tapered carrier bearings to compensate for the thrust loads seen while cornering? Food for thought.
 

Juice

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OP, to answer your questions: 1,2,3, No, No, and No.

Looking at those specs some of them must be incorrect. Clearly, the left and right axles are different length, but by how much? It is either 1 1/8th, or 1/8th inches. I don't know as I have not had my diff apart in this car.

Have you checked axle endplay? With brakes and rotors removed, how much does the axle move in-and-out? I've not looked up the actual specs on endplay, but it should be minimal. Roughly 0.020" or less, just to give you an idea.

Diagnosing a noise over the internet is not very easy.

Since you describe the noise as a squeak, I would take a very close look at the dust shields. Maybe they got bent a little and touching the rotor.

I have also had my Ebrake cables touch the wheel/tire on my fox, and it made a strange groan. I don't think the cables can touch on an S197, but you never know. And it is easy to check.
 

mtgldr

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I would not replace or try to fix anything. At this point you have already altered the brakes by replacing. The dealership will look at any little thing to point a finger at say it's your fault.

I would bring it back to them and discuss it.

My initial gut feeling when reading your post is a bent axle. My second is improper install on the differential and lastly something to do with the bearings.

It doesn't seen they could swap left/right and have it work at all...

But drop an axle and bend it...I could see that.

Thanks, I had not thought about the possibility of a bent axle

Just a thought based off my experience... Had a whirring noise that developed right after I bought the car (~24k miles). Changed sound around right-hand corners. Long story short, ended up being the carrier bearings making the noise. They were pitted pretty bad and they didn't have much preload left on them from the factory 1-piece shims. Rebuilt the whole thing, no more strange noises. Maybe not enough preload on your tapered carrier bearings to compensate for the thrust loads seen while cornering? Food for thought.

This whirring seems to be coming from the outer portion of the rear end but I have never ridden in a car with carrier bearings not shimmed correctly. The carrier bearings, pinion bearing, ring, gear and shims were all replaced by Ford with the ones in the FRP kit.

OP, to answer your questions: 1,2,3, No, No, and No.

Looking at those specs some of them must be incorrect. Clearly, the left and right axles are different length, but by how much? It is either 1 1/8th, or 1/8th inches. I don't know as I have not had my diff apart in this car.

Have you checked axle endplay? With brakes and rotors removed, how much does the axle move in-and-out? I've not looked up the actual specs on endplay, but it should be minimal. Roughly 0.020" or less, just to give you an idea.

Diagnosing a noise over the internet is not very easy.

Since you describe the noise as a squeak, I would take a very close look at the dust shields. Maybe they got bent a little and touching the rotor.

I have also had my Ebrake cables touch the wheel/tire on my fox, and it made a strange groan. I don't think the cables can touch on an S197, but you never know. And it is easy to check.

Dust shields were my first thought, plenty of clearance, ebrake cable are clear as well. End play is much more than .02", more like 1/8", I can move the axle in and out easily and it moves a good bit. This is why I thought perhaps the axles were swapped.

Just a thought based off my experience... Had a whirring noise that developed right after I bought the car (~24k miles). Changed sound around right-hand corners. Long story short, ended up being the carrier bearings making the noise. They were pitted pretty bad and they didn't have much preload left on them from the factory 1-piece shims. Rebuilt the whole thing, no more strange noises. Maybe not enough preload on your tapered carrier bearings to compensate for the thrust loads seen while cornering? Food for thought.

I would think if the carrier bearings were not properly shimmed I would also have ring gear noise, did you also have ring gear whinning along with the whirring bearing sound?
 
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Juice

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Dust shields were my first thought, plenty of clearance, ebrake cable are clear as well. End play is much more than .02", more like 1/8", I can move the axle in and out easily and it moves a good bit. This is why I thought perhaps the axles were swapped.

1/8" endplay is way too much. I would take it back to the shop that did the work and have them fix it. The rear cover must be removed at minimum to inspect why there is so much play.
 

mtgldr

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1/8" endplay is way too much. I would take it back to the shop that did the work and have them fix it. The rear cover must be removed at minimum to inspect why there is so much play.

Thanks, I've tried to look up specs for a 2010 but not having much luck for that year. Apparently I have the left over Bullett car parts. Any idea where I might find the Ford spec? I want to check it with a dial indicator and be prepared if For gives me the "it's within spec" talk.

Shame on me, as I wrote this I remembered I had the service manual link and yep, there is a specs page. End play should be .030" max

I will measure and take to Ford, will advise once I get somewhere with them.
 
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mtgldr

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Good luck!!

Appt Monday. Service manager I spoke to agreed I should not be able to move the axle in & out any perceivable distance. I'll measure the end play over the weekend so I have a starting point.
 

Totheboards

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I hope that the c-clip is not just sitting in the bottom of your pumpkin. Although that is one of the benefits of rear disc brakes... keeping the axle from totally coming out if you lose a c-clip.
 

mtgldr

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I hope that the c-clip is not just sitting in the bottom of your pumpkin. Although that is one of the benefits of rear disc brakes... keeping the axle from totally coming out if you lose a c-clip.

Great point
 

dwngrg

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I had a similar squeak on the left rear wheel of my car, near drove me around the bend btw, that turned out to be a broken tab on the stainless brake hardware that the brake pads rest on. I would hear the noise going around a corner, especially bad if I was driving beside a guardrail or jersey barrier to reflect the noise , that would go away when the brakes were applied. The tabs bend down over the bracket to prevent movement, one side was broken on mine allowing it to slide with the pad. Quick trip to Napa for a hardware kit, <$20, and noise gone.

Might be worth pulling the pads and checking it out.

Apologies if someone else suggested this already, really only read original post.

Greg
 

86GT351

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The more you do yourself, the more possibility you are releasing the initial installers liability. As crazy as that is. 1/8 end play is too much. Sounds like possibly a C Clip not secured and the Axle is currently bring held in by the Brakes. Since the manager is being cool with you, request to be there when the cover is pulled so you can see first hand what they see. Eliminates a BS excuse. Sadly it happens at some dealers when mistakes are made. Here at my dealer, I never tell a customer no if they have a special demand like that. Good for CSI. Of course it has to be within reason.
 

rickf

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Most shops I know of nowadays have cameras that are installed BY the insurance companies so that if there are any insurance claims involving anything that happens in the shop the company is covered. They STRICTLY prohibit any non employee from being in a work area. You could run the risk of losing your insurance coverage by doing that. I understand fully what you are trying to do but a simple explanation to the customer of what happened and making it right should suffice. Take pictures if you feel it would help. Keep in mind this is all going to hurt the moral of the mechanic that did the job. If he is a good and conscientious mechanic he is already going to feel bad about screwing up the job, why rub salt in the wound? It will also not tend to make the rest of the mechanics feel all that good about you, as the service manager either. Everyone makes mistakes and most good mechanics will own up to them. The last thing they want is a boss who rubs it in.
 

86GT351

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Most shops I know of nowadays have cameras that are installed BY the insurance companies so that if there are any insurance claims involving anything that happens in the shop the company is covered. They STRICTLY prohibit any non employee from being in a work area. You could run the risk of losing your insurance coverage by doing that. I understand fully what you are trying to do but a simple explanation to the customer of what happened and making it right should suffice. Take pictures if you feel it would help. Keep in mind this is all going to hurt the moral of the mechanic that did the job. If he is a good and conscientious mechanic he is already going to feel bad about screwing up the job, why rub salt in the wound? It will also not tend to make the rest of the mechanics feel all that good about you, as the service manager either. Everyone makes mistakes and most good mechanics will own up to them. The last thing they want is a boss who rubs it in.


You are correct. We have cameras also. However, if a customer wants to see something we accommodate there concern every time. As long as they are escorted then we are ok.
 

mtgldr

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Well long story short... Told noise I am hearing is tire noise. Pulled the axles and both are pitted in several places where the bearings ride. Bought 2 new axles and FRP bearing / seals and the whirring noise is gone. Oddly even though I had the gears changed twice in the past 2 years I never had any axle bearing noise until the gears were changed this last time. I just did the axles this last night and have not had a chance to get the car hot and make any sweeping turns to see if the squeaking sound is still there.
 

mtgldr

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Squeaking / rubbing / metallic sound when turning right is gone. Had to be the bad spots on the axles rubbing on the bearings when I made a hard right turn. Most of the pitting was interior to the bearing so when the axle was moved further out of the case on a hard right turn, the pits engaged the bearing. Looks like someone took a chisel to the axles, little chunks of surface missing. Very strange since the car has never been tracked or driven hard.
 

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