Valve seat pressure

[travelers]

If your dead set on spinning to 8K you might want to invest in a Spintron setup to see what the valve trains items are going to do with your cam,springs are going to do at that rpm.

 

[Heaten m90]

I wonder if cryogenicly treating any valve train components will aid in longevity and is it a matter off poor geometry preventing sustainable high RPM? Further how much will the jesel set up run me?

Spintron, sounds expensive, ill definitely look into this. We have a wicked nice vibration analyzer at work, i will be using this to a get baseline reading for comparison

 

[RocketcarX]

Fucking hell i just wrote like 6 paragraphs trying to explain my fixation with RPM, and how i believe its possible to achieve a 305/210 CFM 3v port. But it shitout or something when i went to post it.

My pimps pushing hard for me to move to FR500 heads but with cost and complexity i cant cant justify it. If my rods/pistons ever find a way to escape, ill cash out my 401K, start selling crack and build a 5.8 stroker. Some dudes build cars to enjoy them.... thats cool, but mines going to be a purpose built racecar, the goal is winning. This is just my first big build, and im not going to be a pussy about it.

I'll be in the test cell with my buddy from work next week for his big block. I'll pass along the recommended part numbers and specs to the builder, thanks guys.

It always amazes me you push your self taught internet theories so hard after that day with your buddy in the dyno cell, Shep. C'mon man.

 

[702GT]

Fucking hell i just wrote like 6 paragraphs trying to explain my fixation with RPM, and how i believe its possible to achieve a 305/210 CFM 3v port. But it shitout or something when i went to post it.

My pimps pushing hard for me to move to FR500 heads but with cost and complexity i cant cant justify it. If my rods/pistons ever find a way to escape, ill cash out my 401K, start selling crack and build a 5.8 stroker. Some dudes build cars to enjoy them.... thats cool, but mines going to be a purpose built racecar, the goal is winning. This is just my first big build, and im not going to be a pussy about it.

I'll be in the test cell with my buddy from work next week for his big block. I'll pass along the recommended part numbers and specs to the builder, thanks guys.

Holy crap McFly, must have missed the FR500 head bit. Again, why would you want to do things the hard way? The FR500 heads were cool, back in the day, before GT500 heads crushed them. Not only would you have to invest in a set of FR500 heads, but then you would have to port them just to catch up to GT500 heads (the very same heads the previous Ford GT runs minus some minor differences). The FR500 heads share the same characteristics as the 03/04 "C" heads, including their rear cylinder cooling problems. If you're even going to consider using any 4v head, you're better off with a straight GT500 swap. It's about the only way you're going to get the most out of a 4v head as you can. The FR500 heads are rubbish next to a GT500 head. Stock for stock and port for port, and the GT500 doesn't share the same cooling design flaw. If you had an '03 Cobra, I'd still tell you to stick with the "C" head over the FR500. The only people that should get giddy over a FR500 head is a '96 GT swapping out a Non-PI 2v for a scratch built 4v.... back in 2005.

Who's your pimp? That fool needs new game. Does he own a '00 R?

I wonder if cryogenicly treating any valve train components will aid in longevity and is it a matter off poor geometry preventing sustainable high RPM? Further how much will the jesel set up run me?

Spintron, sounds expensive, ill definitely look into this. We have a wicked nice vibration analyzer at work, i will be using this to a get baseline reading for comparison

Hardening any component that literally gets beat on isn't a good idea. Odds are your followers will just shatter at high rpm. While cryo treating some metals increases hardness, it also makes them more brittle. I wouldn't put anything cryo treated inside or on an engine. Maybe wheels or something.

The 3v valvetrain and port/valve design is the weak link in high HP potential. As I've stated before, when people first attempted port jobs on 3v heads, they quickly learned that Ford didn't leave much material removal to be had. That "extra material" in your intake ports is actually what keeps your valve guides in place. A few even lost their heads to botched port jobs. Many of the "success" port jobs had issues down the road in actual performance conditions, such as bad guides. I think these days most of the experienced 3v head shops have it figured out, but there isn't as much port to free up as was once thought. The best port jobs are intake/exhaust port matching and smoothing of the port walls. You can remove extra material around the valve seats to accommodate for I think 1mm bigger valves, but the more you remove around the valve guides, the chancier shit gets of going wrong and trashing the head.

The valvetrain is weak too, IMHO just look at the followers. They're pitiful. The valve springs look like they belong on a 4cyl. The valve train makes it a bitch to run high(er) lift cams. In a high RPM application, you're actually better off running the smallest cam you can with the nicest set of springs you can afford. When you run a big cam at high RPM, the tiny 3v springs (aftermarket or not) just start to fall behind, they don't have enough structure and travel to absorb the impact. There used to be a really good high speed cam video on youtube of a 3v head exposed with one of the comp cam spring lines. They actually spun the motor to about 8500 rpm before the spring failed, but it showed the spring "jiggling" side to side, and ultimately the spring actually rebounded off the follower after a down-stroke and caused a misalignment with the retainer. On the next down stroke the follower popped the spring out of its seat and all hell broke loose, not to mention dropping a valve into the cylinder.

This isn't to say you can't rev a 3v head. But the lengths you'll take to ensure the valvetrain stays alive will be extensive, and the pick of cam, spring, and how much boost you push are going to exponentially increase your risk of valvetrain failure the higher you rev.

Beyond that, there's really not enough port to flow beyond 7500rpm, and most of your real work is going to be done between 6,000-7,000rpm. You'll have long left your torque curve behind after 6,000rpm anyway.

 

[46addict]

I wonder if cryogenicly treating any valve train components will aid in longevity and is it a matter off poor geometry preventing sustainable high RPM? Further how much will the jesel set up run me?

It's one of those things where if you have to ask, you can't afford it unless you are the pimp's bottom bitch. A set of Jesel followers are $3076 and $1150 for lash adjusters. Add $1200 to the cost for a 4v build.

As for cryogenics, I thought it was better to have engine parts shot peened if the material allows you to do it. Maybe someone else can expand on this. But I'm sure the guys at Jesel thought of this already and there won't be any "strengthening" needed.

Because of the inherent design issues of the 3v head, I'd scrap it and start off with a 4v Teksid engine. Follow what John Mihovetz did. For what it's worth, he uses (or has used) factory Ford GT (GT500?) valvetrain parts in his 5 second car.

 

[Heaten m90]

I refer to the builder as my pimp, because everytime i see him i have to give him all my money, and he tells me to bring him more next time. Ruff estimate it would cost another 10 grand to switch to 4v setup, so im moving forward with the 3 valve as planned. I absolutely will build a 4 valve but it'll be over the course of the next few years.

Jesel wants 5 grand for their setup?!?!? DO THEY KNOW HOW MANY I WOULD HAVE TO SUCK FOR THAT TYPE OF MONEY!!!!!

So, no joke last night i had a dream i was at some sort of corporate demo for the spintron machine and they were using my motor for the demonstration. When the presentation started a speaker said "MMR's new innovation the spintron" i immediately started panicking and ubjecting, so they rushed me into a room and were trying to distract me with some sort of 3D billet rod printer. Sortly later another guy walk in the room and said "it didnt make it throught the test" but that i still owe them money..... My lady said i was muffled screaming in my sleep.

 

[Wes06]

HAHAHAHAHA that dream is fucking gold. Rofl

 

[NickD87]

I have your solution.
Your engine exists and is currently for sale.
Mo Makki is your man, full long bock for sale. Makes over 1600hp, I'm positive it would cost less to buy it then the learning process required to re create it yourself.


Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk

 

[travelers]

This is suppose to be for a purposes built race car. Now what kind? drag, road coarse? What is the time frame that engine is going to run at 8K? What do you think your maintenance intervals between rebuilds? Drag racing will be less destructive on it then a road coarse in my oppinion. Have you thought of how your getting SOME of that power to the ground?

I mentioned a spintron which you will need a spair block they can cut holes in the sides of the cylinders for the cameras and all the related parts need to test your heads, cams, springs followers. Oh don't forget the fee for the spintron testing time. If you have the pockets for that you will learn a lot. We did, when we spintroned a 426 hemi as I worked on a NHRA Super Stock AH car.

With what your trying I would pick up another block and heads. I think your going to need it.

 

[Heaten m90]

This is suppose to be for a purposes built race car. Now what kind? drag, road coarse? What is the time frame that engine is going to run at 8K? What do you think your maintenance intervals between rebuilds? Drag racing will be less destructive on it then a road coarse in my oppinion. Have you thought of how your getting SOME of that power to the ground?

airstrip mile events, road course racing will be event's i plan to attend. But street racing/no prep grudge will be hunting grounds. I'd be happy if i got 500 hours out of the bearings. Ideally the engine will only see 8K at the top of every gear and the 1320ft mark. Its not like im going to hang it out to dry.

And yes to getting the power to the ground. I've spoken to BMR a few times And purchesed many of their items. Excluding springs, i bought the cobra jet drag springs, and i bought someone's else's sway bar end links that fit my larger Roush sway bar, rear strut tower brace and x brace was from steeda, i put an 8 point cage in the car but i just bought a 12 point convertion. BMR LCAs, UCA's, relocation brackets(not sure ill need them but have them) and sub frame connecters lastly i run their solid motor mounts. GT500 front mounts, Roush front springs, A Arm connector ... 295 Hoosier A7 slicks in front, Then either hoosier 335 or 365's DR2's in the back(id have to go take a look i cant remember) billet spacers.... im probably missing shit, Anyways from what BMR was saying it should be good for 1.1-1.3 60ft times. I'll likely be converting over to a full tube front end but i haven't bought any of it yet other than a bumper delete. Its completely gutted, full weight reduction excluding lex windows, wimdow motors and i haven't gone crazy with the gun drilling yet but i did buy an industrial size carbon fiber panel making kit, hoping to replace all the non load bearing sheet metal, mabe the transmission tunnel. The boost will be progressive. My secret hook sauce recipe.... it'll get down and boogie

 

[702GT]

airstrip mile events, road course racing will be event's i plan to attend. But street racing/no prep grudge will be hunting grounds. I'd be happy if i got 500 hours out of the bearings. Ideally the engine will only see 8K at the top of every gear and the 1320ft mark. Its not like im going to hang it out to dry.

And yes to getting the power to the ground. I've spoken to BMR a few times And purchesed many of their items. Excluding springs, i bought the cobra jet drag springs, and i bought someone's else's sway bar end links that fit my larger Roush sway bar, rear strut tower brace and x brace was from steeda, i put an 8 point cage in the car but i just bought a 12 point convertion. BMR LCAs, UCA's, relocation brackets(not sure ill need them but have them) and sub frame connecters lastly i run their solid motor mounts. GT500 front mounts, Roush front springs, A Arm connector ... 295 Hoosier A7 slicks in front, Then either hoosier 335 or 365's DR2's in the back(id have to go take a look i cant remember) billet spacers.... im probably missing shit, Anyways from what BMR was saying it should be good for 1.1-1.3 60ft times. I'll likely be converting over to a full tube front end but i haven't bought any of it yet other than a bumper delete. Its completely gutted, full weight reduction excluding lex windows, wimdow motors and i haven't gone crazy with the gun drilling yet but i did buy an industrial size carbon fiber panel making kit, hoping to replace all the non load bearing sheet metal, mabe the transmission tunnel. The boost will be progressive. My secret hook sauce recipe.... it'll get down and boogie

Airstrip drag mile, road course racing, and 1/4 mile street racer are all very different racing applications. No single build is going to excel at all of them. A filet knife is a purpose built tool. A swiss army knife is muti-purpose tool. You're talking about a swiss army knife of cars, not a purpose built race car. Your gearing demands alone are different for all of these events. You'd need 3 different gear ratios and 3 different transmissions just to be competitive.

A car that does well at the standing mile sure as fuck isnt going to "boogie" down the street in the 1/4 mile, and neither are going to corner worth a shit on a road course. Getting 1,000+whp to the ground is a chore in itself, so make up your mind before you decide 1 car is going to specialize in all 3 categories.

 

[eighty6gt]

1000 hp cars need the build cost invested yearly to keep going.

 

[travelers]

Now we have something to work with. The bearings aren't going to be the limiting factor especially if you use good quality bearings and the right clearance. As everyone has said, the 3v valve train isn't going to last that long. It doesn't take but a split second for it to go south.

 

[eighty6gt]

What about a hayabusa - they rev over 8000, pretty fast in the mile. Can get one with a turbo already on it for $6000 or so. Would run for more than a few blocks.

 

[Pentalab]

What about a hayabusa - they rev over 8000, pretty fast in the mile. Can get one with a turbo already on it for $6000 or so. Would run for more than a few blocks.

Some guy actually stuffed a Hyabusa into a smart car. A buddy in the UK had a busa motor bike..with nitrous. It was a laff out running cops on the motor way. These days its all for naught.... with photo radar on every road in the UK.
If they ever bring back photo radar to our neck of the woods, it's bye bye mustang. When we did have it years ago, folks would get busted several times on the same stretch of roadway. Cops would do stupid stuff, like set the threshold at just 3 mph over the posted limit. Or when the hwy limit drops from 50 mph..down to 30 mph, bingo, photo radar less than 100' downstream of the 30 mph sign...busting everybody. Its a money making scam pure + simple. They could even hit the front plates as well as rear plates..all with one machine.

Meanwhile, joe smuck gets a notice in the mail... 6-8 weeks after the fact.

 

[eighty6gt]

any ohc valve spring is going to be much smaller than what you're used to seeing on a 350, the loads are a pittance in comparison. The valves are going to be bigger, but a 2.3 4 is hardly a huge engine.

It's a very cost saved design, IMO. Imagine how much work Ford did taking dollars out of the 3V head when that system was used across their entire V8 line. 4.6, 5.4, and V10. Millions of trucks.

They got smarter with the 5.0, it's all about how it's getting cheaper and cheaper to get decent parts made in mexico and china. Shit just the $ they saved on those transmissions....

 

[Heaten m90]

This is how you afford jessel , when you only make 40 bucks an hour regulator time.

 

[eighty6gt]

FORTY BUCKS!!?

 

[Heaten m90]

FORTY BUCKS!!?

Its chicago...... some of the older senior service engineers make in the upper 50's.... same title as me, but with 30+ years under

 

[travelers]

But how much does Uncle Sam take??????