Forgestar Wheel Failure?

Sky Render · Apr 16, 2016

cgwiita said:
Terry--that's a really good point about the suspension bottoming. That explains why both the rears have way more cracks then the remaining front wheel--they could simply be running out of travel earlier than the fronts, and being subjected to more damage.

I'll throw a gopro in the wheel well once I get the car back on the road, or make some sort of witness mark to see how much travel is actually occurring.

I dropped the wheels off at Forgestar this morning, unfortunately Vincent was at a meeting so I didn't have the chance to talk to him--was great of him to refund the wheels though, wasn't expecting that in the least!

Wait, are you the guy in the video?

cgwiita · Apr 16, 2016

Sky Render said:
Wait, are you the guy in the video?

Yup!

s197throwaway · Apr 16, 2016

What poor behavior from what appears to be a respected vendor on this site. It's a post full of ad hominem, conjecture, and straw man arguments. And don't forget a healthy dose of sales in the middle.

1. This S2000 driver is hitting every curb on that track. I've driven Buttonwillow and those are not "little curbs", either. Curb crashers break all wheels.

The fast line is over some of the curbs at Buttonwillow as it is at most tracks.

3. This set of Forgestars was THREE years old. They weren't just used a handful of times, either. He clearly misrepresented that in his video.

What does age have to do with frequency of track use? For all you know the guy could only afford a track day or two a year. Either way, the comment in the video says they were in use for 14 track days. I'm not sure where you get the 'handful of times' from.

4. All four wheels had cracks in the spokes the driver ignored for a long time. Old cracks which propagated over many race weekends. And they made LOUD noises for a good while before they let go - you can hear them in the video. The close-up pics revealed the cracks had been there for months and the raw aluminum had started to corrode inside the cracks. Anyone that would have done even a simple HPDE inspection would have seen these cracks long before the first wheel let go. I would be embarrassed if I had posted that... this was an "ignorant to HPDE inspections" error in every way.

Driver said he inspected them track weekend before last. I'm glad you can do a full metallurgical analysis from a few pictures. You should probably stop selling Forgestar wheels and put that skill to use instead, it sounds pretty profitable.

5. I can show you pictures of broken wheels from EVERY manufacturer you can think of across the cost spectrum. Enkei, CCW, HRE, BBS, Forgeline, D-Force, etc. There's always somebody that can break anything, and no wheel has an infinite lifespan.

Agreed, track wheels are a consumable. 14 days is a very short lifespan for a set though.

1. Don't let some kid with a slick video posted on the internet trick you into believing something we all know to not be true - he clearly had an agenda, and it worked. Forgestar gave him his wheel costs back + the costs for his ball joint. They shouldn't have, because now this entitled, ignorant kid probably thinks he was "right" to post this video. He was not - this was poor maintenance and track ignorance exemplified. Glorified, even.

What agenda? He let Forgestar know with an e-mail and Forgestar quickly saw that the data they would collect from the set of failed wheels was worth more than a set of new ones.

This is the first wheel fatigue failure I've seen in 6+ years of Forgestar wheels being used in motorsports, but it was bound to happen - especially as abused as this S2000 was. After looking at the pictures and his video I'm convinced this catastrophic wheel failure could have easily been avoided if the driver ever even glanced at his wheels before a track weekend. Use your eyes.

Sorry, track use isn't abuse unless that's what you are claiming. Shit happens sometimes, it's far from unheard of for wheels developing cracks within a day or weekend.

2. We here at Vorshlag have vetted these wheels on both light and heavy cars with much higher levels of mechanical and aero grip. I've had one set from our Mustang for 4 years and the rears were still in service when I sold the car. I've never cracked a single Forgestar wheel in 4+ years of racing on and selling them.

Even in 2016 metallurgy isn't perfect, sometimes bad wheels get made. If this is even the case here, not claiming it is, but your sample size is laughably small if you're making clams about the quality of all of the Forgestar wheels in the wild.

3. Wheels are consumable items, just like everything else on a race car. After so many cycles things reach an endurance limit (look it up) and have to be "cycled out". This is why I never buy used wheels - how many thousands of laps have they already been through before they were sold second hand to you? Always always inspect your wheels (and suspension, and brakes, and fluids, and etc) and look for fatigue cracks on the insides of the spokes (hub side) before a track weekend.

Agreed, and the s2k driver hasn't disputed this.

4. We have a small percentage of customers that can break anything. These guys tend to bend or crack wheels of all brands, given enough time. Some people can break an anvil with a feather! Don't be "that guy". If all you aren't even looking at lap times: don't drive 11/10ths, stay off the damned curbs and FFS keep it on the track. Don't be like this asshat below...

Curbs and offs happen if you're pushing it. Selling motorsports wheels then saying that curb crashing and offs are abuse is silly.

5. Don't set up your suspension so it bottoms out. That WILL cause catastrophic failure eventually, no matter the brand of wheel. If not a wheel, then a hub, spindle, strut/damper, or chassis.

Agreed, but I'm curious how you know his exact bumpstop setup and that he was for sure bottoming out. I polish the crap out of the tops of my fenders in my car. He must be an exceptional driver in order to maintain control of a car that is bottoming out hard enough to break wheels on the apex of a turn.
<Giant sales job removed>

That's all I have. It just bugs me that so many people are willing to jump on this S2000 driver's defense, like he got screwed with his 3+ year old wheels that he curb jumped on the bumpstops the whole time. Ignored old cracks, ignoring weird wheel noises, ignoring a poorly setup suspension, ignoring bad driving habits. In this short-attention-span time of no accountability, so many were quick to jump on the hater train.

Abused or not, a set of wheels that failed in 14 track days is worthy of some attention. You jump all over the driver of the car for the actions of people that have nothing to do with him. I read his s2ki posts and watched the video, I didn't see any of what happened on FB. No where I looked does he crap all over Forgestar. He expresses curiosity at why they failed early, mentioned he was sending an e-mail to Forgestar since they hit him up and expresses significant gratitude at the unexpected set of wheels and ball joint they are comping him.

Meanwhile we keep getting more and more Forgestar wheel orders, with 30+ sets in the pipeline right now. I won't use anything else on my own cars, because nothing else can touch their price/performance quotient in custom sized wheels. Except there is a new wheel they make that goes even farther...

Ah, there it is. The real purpose of this post.

Your second post is just incredibly poor form for a vendor. It's a giant pile of 10 year old trash talk. I'll respond to these with the same level of respect you provided.

I watched yet another video from boy wonder and he's terrible. Not only does he get passed by a 4 door Mercedes, he struggles mightily to re-0pass this 4000+ pound lxubarge. And in doing so he has a HUGE off. This is dated only a few weekends before his "mysterious wheel failure".

So an off means Forgestar wheels should be considered consumed. Got it.

Also, if you watch this video - look at how often and easily this car's suspension is HITTING THE BUMPSTOPS. Over what seem to be mild bumps on track the car is JOLTED as the shocks run out of travel. This is not a good setup and this guy will destroy anything bolted to this car, especially with as much curb jumping and offroading he does.

Wait, is he hitting the bumpstops or bottoming out? Can Forgestars not handle a suspension that hits some high resistance rubber? Can they not handle hitting curbs on a track? Is track use considered abuse?

I've had my share of driving mistakes on Forgestars - even with the exact same 17x10" F14's he managed to break - and have yet to see a crack in my wheels. But unlike this kid, we inspect our wheels before we ever go on track. This stuff is easy to check, and is especially important to do after you have big offs.

Quality N=1 science there.

frank s · Apr 16, 2016

s197throwaway said:
{...}
Quality N=1 science there.

Who were you before today?

cgwiita · Apr 16, 2016

Terry can you check out the pictures in this thread at S2Ki?

http://www.s2ki.com/s2000/topic/1072676-forgestar-f14-17x10-data-thread/page__st__300

One poster actually has both castings, the second of which has the thicker spokes, but they were purchased on the same day in 2015 (from ModBargains). Which version are you selling?

El_Tortuga · Apr 17, 2016

Biggest problem I have with my 18x11 F14s is the cost of the tires that fit. Stepping up from 275 to 315 rubber is dramatic.

The takeaway has to be to check your wheels regularly and thoroughly for cracks, no matter what brand. By the darkened areas compared to the lighter final fracture, the cracks had been there for a while. The cracks on the other wheels are pretty noticeable. A thorough visual inspection should suffice.

Mine go off and on each event but given the news, yesterday I took the time to give them a thorough cleaning and some quality time with an inspection light. I got the opportunity to borrow an AIM solo last weekend and was pleasantly surprised with the lateral acceleration numbers. E.g. 1.1 - 1.2 sustained Gs in a big sweeper and max out with 1.4 to 1.5 peak Gs on a tight uphill corner. Pretty good for a true daily driver, but it's a lot of load generated by 3900 or so pounds of steel and skin. Most of my end of session inspection is focused on tires and brakes, but it won't take much to add the rims while I'm at it, and give the insides a hard look before tossing them on the tire trailer.

By coincidence, a friend noticed a crack on one of his BMW wheels between session last weekend so he swapped them out without putting himself or others in danger. Not sure what brand they were (not forgestars), just no dramatic "brand x experience" video. He was just a little slower on his street tires for the remains sessions.

Sky Render · Apr 17, 2016

s197throwaway said:
{horseshit}
Quality N=1 science there.

At least Terry isn't a pussy and puts his name on his posts. And furthermore, the guy driving in that video is also posting in this thread asking Terry's advice.

So what's your angle, chickenshit?

Lucky_13 · Apr 17, 2016

cgwiita said:
Terry can you check out the pictures in this thread at S2Ki?

http://www.s2ki.com/s2000/topic/1072676-forgestar-f14-17x10-data-thread/page__st__300

One poster actually has both castings, the second of which has the thicker spokes, but they were purchased on the same day in 2015 (from ModBargains). Which version are you selling?

There is a beefier "version 2" of the same wheel (specs, etc.)? That's a little alarming. Hoping Vincent from Forgestar can shine some light on that situation for you, please keep us updated.

Sky Render · Apr 17, 2016

Lucky_13 said:
There is a beefier "version 2" of the same wheel (specs, etc.)? That's a little alarming. Hoping Vincent from Forgestar can shine some light on that situation for you, please keep us updated.

Interesting. I use the 5-spoke CF5s. I wonder if there are 2 versions of those?

Sent from my Samsung Galaxy Note 4 using Tapatalk

lol · Apr 17, 2016

*Is forum automotive expert*
"How did this S2000 get passed by a 4 door luxo barge"
*Can't ID a C63 AMG*

Are you kidding me?

All this post tells me is that you're willing to make ill informed personal attacks to protect your revenue stream. That tells me exactly what kind of company you run.

Norm Peterson · Apr 17, 2016

lol said:
*Is forum automotive expert*
"How did this S2000 get passed by a 4 door luxo barge"
*Can't ID a C63 AMG*

Are you kidding me?

All this post tells me is that you're willing to make ill informed personal attacks to protect your revenue stream. That tells me exactly what kind of company you run.

You (and s197throwaway as well) haven't been here long enough (today, the 17th and yesterday the 16th, respectively), and haven't had any known previous discussion with either Terry or Jason to know enough to comment.

But I'm in a good mood today even for those who seem to be in here with a negative agenda. Spend enough time to read this thread before you make any unwarranted conclusions about either their grasp of Mustang tech or business practices. Take your time, it's a long read and we'll still be here when (if?) you finish. Big hint: it's not the only project they've been principal for.

Norm

stkjock · Apr 17, 2016

Awesome. Trolls....

series8217 · Apr 17, 2016

Norm Peterson said:
You (and s197throwaway as well) haven't been here long enough (today, the 17th and yesterday the 16th, respectively), and haven't had any known previous discussion with either Terry or Jason to know enough to comment.

But I'm in a good mood today even for those who seem to be in here with a negative agenda. Spend enough time to read this thread before you make any unwarranted conclusions about either their grasp of Mustang tech or business practices. Take your time, it's a long read and we'll still be here when (if?) you finish. Big hint: it's not the only project they've been principal for.

Norm

Don't be so quick to assume. Being a registered S197 member for a short period of time doesn't really say anything about how much people know about someone's reputation. You might not be aware but Terry has that same build thread (along with others) on possibly a dozen venues, including Corner Carvers, NASA Forums, Vorshlag blog, and DFW50s.

Terry promotes Vorshlag pretty heavily through his build threads all over the 'net, and Jason is active in those places too. They tend to be well respected in the broader community of automotive forums in general.

I'm not saying that everyone who joins this forum to reply to this thread knows all the backstory, but being that this is a high profile incident and thread, a lot more voices are going to being coming in and they're all going to have recent join dates despite some of them being knowledgeable about the people and the incident here.

I don't see the need for anyone to resort to personal attacks in what should be a technical discussion. Ignore the precedent set by Terry's opinion piece and instead stick with the facts. There is a LOT more information available on this incident than hasn't been talked about in this thread. It's not being hidden from anyone's eyes either. Take the time to look at the linked threads before you reply.

lol · Apr 17, 2016

Norm Peterson said:
You (and s197throwaway as well) haven't been here long enough (today, the 17th and yesterday the 16th, respectively), and haven't had any known previous discussion with either Terry or Jason to know enough to comment.

But I'm in a good mood today even for those who seem to be in here with a negative agenda. Spend enough time to read this thread before you make any unwarranted conclusions about either their grasp of Mustang tech or business practices. Take your time, it's a long read and we'll still be here when (if?) you finish. Big hint: it's not the only project they've been principal for.

Norm

What exact do I need to know? Other than the fact that I know what a C63 AMG is and why it passing an S2000 is sort of a non-event, credibility isn't a huge issue here.

If he'd come here and posted about how wheels are consumable and that this is a reminded to check your wheels and that offs and hitting curbing could shorten the life of the wheel? Fine. I had an SSR Type-C that cracked at autoclub -- though it failed way less spectacularly with way more track days. Instead, he did all that and then went on a full scale assault on the driver and whatever skills he had basing it at least on part that he got passed by a C63 amg. That's not professional. Would he do this if he didn't have a warehouse full of forgestars? Maybe. Maybe he's a jerk, whatever.

So this opens up a question. If I buy a product from Terry, does he stand by it? If it breaks after little use, does he make it right or some he come and attack me on the internet? Normally this wouldn't be a question, but here it is based on his conduct regarding a product he sells (even if he didn't sell this). Everyone makes mistakes, and it is how you deal with them that tells you about someone's character. Forgestar has already stepped up and fixed this man's car and replace his wheels. That's character and integrity, and I have no issue with them.

I don't post on this forum, but I'm more than a little familiar with how auto forums, particularly one mark auto forums get. Everyone rallies around "their" people. There's the people who use fancy language, know a little more than most, and what they say becomes forum gospel. When that guy also has something to sell, you should look at things a little more critically.

What is my motive to post? Well mostly it was hilarious to me to see someone who is an *internet expert* hate on some guy for getting passed by a 4 door sedan in an S2000 when said 4 door sedan is a c63 AMG. When a Lotus Europa gets passed by an STI do we all get up in the Lotus driver's face for getting his *Lotus* passed by a car with a higher curb weight (and way more power and etc.). However, a secondary fact was that I was pretty shocked that someone who owns a reasonable well respected company would decide to launch personal attacks on someone they didn't know for profit while representing his company. That's a Hennessy move, and I thought it important that he know that how he represents his company in this post:

Vorshlag-Fair said:
People are chiming in on other forums who know this S2000 driver....

"He did have quite the bumpy off at MSIR on Turn 9 just a few weeks prior and I wonder if that might have been the final nail in the coffin for those F14's."

In-car video of a huge "off" : https://youtu.be/mvqpF7NKPJc

I watched yet another video from boy wonder and he's terrible. Not only does he get passed by a 4 door Mercedes, he struggles mightily to re-0pass this 4000+ pound lxubarge. And in doing so he has a HUGE off. This is dated only a few weekends before his "mysterious wheel failure".

colors other's view of his company. The internet is a big place and your posts on one corner of the web have big effects.
He can find other forum posts on the internet, and the internet can find posts here. A few forums are having a laugh at Vorshlag's conduct here.

Boaisy · Apr 17, 2016

stkjock said:
Awesome. Trolls....

Thanks Shaggy...

csamsh · Apr 17, 2016

lol said:
So this opens up a question. If I buy a product from Terry, does he stand by it? If it breaks after little use, does he make it right or some he come and attack me on the internet? Normally this wouldn't be a question, but here it is based on his conduct regarding a product he sells (even if he didn't sell this). Everyone makes mistakes, and it is how you deal with them that tells you about someone's character. Forgestar has already stepped up and fixed this man's car and replace his wheels. That's character and integrity, and I have no issue with them.

I'm not speaking for Terry (and am in no way affiliated in any business sense with Vorshlag)....but I would say that breaking a race part on a race track is largely handled on a case by case basis. If it's a part that has an obvious design flaw that's been rectified and recalled, that is quite different from blowing a shock because you ride curbs, hit bumpstops, and have lots of big offs. From an outsider's point of view, I'd say this wheel incident falls somewhere on each side of that line, given some of the apparent design differences in the older 17" F14 from the newer one. That being said...some if not all the risk must be assumed by the end user in track/autox/race applications. Also that being said, this opinion is very much Armchair Quarterbacked. I'm by no means professing expertise here- just idle musings.

Turns out I was in fact making some unfounded assumptions, hence the armchair quarterback disclaimer. (Edit)

Personally....I would never warranty or replace any part sold and bought for off-road use, for any reason. What we do is very much an "at your own risk" activity, and near 100% of the responsibility must be placed on the end user, assuming no gross negligence on the part of any shop/builder/parts manufacturer, etc.

s197throwaway · Apr 17, 2016

Norm Peterson said:
You (and s197throwaway as well) haven't been here long enough (today, the 17th and yesterday the 16th, respectively), and haven't had any known previous discussion with either Terry or Jason to know enough to comment.

But I'm in a good mood today even for those who seem to be in here with a negative agenda. Spend enough time to read this thread before you make any unwarranted conclusions about either their grasp of Mustang tech or business practices. Take your time, it's a long read and we'll still be here when (if?) you finish. Big hint: it's not the only project they've been principal for.

Norm

I don't own a s2000 (or s197), or have any opinion on Forgestar wheels, or honestly Vorshlag. My knowledge about Terry is pretty much his hotheaded ad-hom full post.

My angle is that I saw a giant fluff piece posted attacking someone who has been extremely civil (as you can all see by his conduct in this thread as well) with the thinly veiled reason of attempting to maintain the reputation of a product. Then a bunch of fellation. I called out the BS where I saw BS and agreed where he was right. One thing I missed is that the s2000 driver didn't really inspect his wheels in a meaningful way, saw that in a post later on.

The main reason I'm posting under an anonymous name is that it's possible that I'll race a s197 at some point in the future and I'd rather not burn my main Internet identity on this thread. Marque/Model forums tend to be pretty protective of their sponsor/vendors. Minor secondary reason is that I race and it's pretty trivial to figure out exactly who I am based on pictures of my car and race entries. I don't need some tough guy trying to cause me problems over the Internet.

stkjock · Apr 17, 2016

Ok Jimbo

Boaisy · Apr 18, 2016

s197throwaway said:
I don't need some tough guy trying to cause me problems over the Internet.

Then why bother to come on here with a "throwaway" account just to stir up shit?

Pentalab · Apr 18, 2016

One fellow on the s2Ki forum has 2 complete sets of rims. (1st) 3 gold thin spokes..and 1 gold thick spoke. (2nd) is 2 gunmetal thin spokes..and 2 gunmetal thick spokes. (1400lb vs 1520 lb rating). So Forgestar isn't consistent between complete sets of wheels.....but's its only a 8.5% difference.

They also mentioned the possible use of A356 alloy.... which I find difficult to believe. Does anybody actually know what AL alloy Forgestar uses ?

Forgestar Wheel Failure?

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