Forgestar Wheel Failure?

series8217 said:

Don't be so quick to assume. Being a registered S197 member for a short period of time doesn't really say anything about how much people know about someone's reputation. You might not be aware but Terry has that same build thread (along with others) on possibly a dozen venues, including Corner Carvers, NASA Forums, Vorshlag blog, and DFW50s.

Terry promotes Vorshlag pretty heavily through his build threads all over the 'net, and Jason is active in those places too. They tend to be well respected in the broader community of automotive forums in general.

I'm not saying that everyone who joins this forum to reply to this thread knows all the backstory, but being that this is a high profile incident and thread, a lot more voices are going to being coming in and they're all going to have recent join dates despite some of them being knowledgeable about the people and the incident here.

I don't see the need for anyone to resort to personal attacks in what should be a technical discussion. Ignore the precedent set by Terry's opinion piece and instead stick with the facts. There is a LOT more information available on this incident than hasn't been talked about in this thread. It's not being hidden from anyone's eyes either. Take the time to look at the linked threads before you reply.

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I think the whole tone was set by the word "AWESOME!!!", as recorded in the video. So the way the replies were phrased should come as no surprise. For the record, I'm impressed that cgwiita is asking for Terry's help. I haven't had time enough to go through the entire S2K thread with its 300+ posts (just a little bit here and a little bit there), but I'm pretty sure that when I do that I'll still understand just about anything that might be in it.

If you'd read Vorshlag's lengthy red Mustang thread, all of it, you'd have noted that failures and shortcomings along the way weren't covered up or responsibilities not admitted. Can't ask for much more than that. Of course there's going to be mention of the company. Same as happens with Strano, Steeda, BMR, SC&C, and the list goes on . . . FWIW you might also want to see the list of participants in Terry's Corner-Carvers thread (and if you're really ambitious you might want to spot-check a couple of join dates over there as they're probably better basis than join dates here).

I don't particularly care where anybody might have read any of Terry's build threads. But in the absence of any hints that they have (and at least one suggestion that they haven't) I can't assume that they have. Trying to create a negative bandwagon without known basis beyond this one thread isn't good form either.


I will be looking at my own F14 wheels (in 18x11, from Vorshlag). I could post up more on this, but I won't. Not here, not now.


Norm

I'm still trying to wrap my head around busting FOURTEEN spokes. Did they develop hairline cracks.... 1 or 2 spokes at a time? If it's a metal fatigue issue, or repetitive pounding, I would have thought you would get some advance warning, but perhaps not. They didn't go from new to sheared off..over night. I guess the bottom line is routine inspections....esp after either an off, or smacking some curbs. Or get Forgestar to build em stronger.

As a parts developer, I (we) are always looking for failure points. A one-off incident doesn't provide a lot of data when viewed remotely. A pattern does.

When we don't see a pattern of wheel failures, EXCEPT on one specific person's car (not model of car, or track, or wheel blank) we have to assume that there is something specific about that car that is causing the issue.

In this case, the 17" F14 wheels, thick and thin, have been used by many people in the FT86, S2000 and BMW communities without issue. Until this occurrence, which broke all four wheels, we have had no reports like this. So without more data I'm looking at either the driver's behavior or car setup, which are the only unique things to this incident.

Now I said -assume- up there. We can't absolutely rule out what did or did not cause the issue without more data. But the fact that other S2000s, other Buttonwillow drivers, and other models of 17" F14 owners aren't also reporting failures, again, leads me to believe that something owner or car specific is the cause here.

Along those lines, I've seen wheels that DO have engineering issues and failed (Konig Villans among others). Or wheels that when used with specific combinations with other parts (like 10mm spacers on BMWs with Kosei wheels that didn't have a deep enough centerbore) caused failures. They -usually- are widespread and not isolated incidents.

Pentalab said:

I'm still trying to wrap my head around busting FOURTEEN spokes. Did they develop hairline cracks.... 1 or 2 spokes at a time?

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Yup--this is the representative appearance of fatigue failure (on any metal with a fatigue life). It implies that the casting is consistent, and there wasn't one single flaw that compromised the strength of the wheels. So yes, there were necessarily hairline fatigue cracks on the wheels for quite some time (and they were clearly visible, if I had looked at the back side of the spokes!) the cracks on the rest of the wheels also suggest consistency in the strength of the wheels, and that the failure was due to some more global variable that affected all the wheels equally, like my car setup, driving style, or the wheel design.

modernbeat said:

In this case, the 17" F14 wheels, thick and thin, have been used by many people in the FT86, S2000 and BMW communities without issue.

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Thanks for posting this modernbeat! Are you a Forgestar distributor? We're only just becoming aware that there are two versions in the s2ki.com thread--I'd love to get more data on what cars are running which versions. Terry was the only person I could find running 17x10 F14 (and his appear to be the thick spoke versions). Can you disclose who/how many users you know of using these in S2000s, 86s, and BMWs? And which versions (thick/thin) went to which?

It's occurred to me I keep referencing "the s2ki thread" but haven't linked it. I've been periodically updating the first post with relevant information, but newest information will always be in posts at the end of the thread.

http://www.s2ki.com/s2000/topic/1072676-forgestar-f14-17x10-data-thread

s197throwaway said:

My angle is that I saw a giant fluff piece posted attacking someone who has been extremely civil (as you can all see by his conduct in this thread as well) with the thinly veiled reason of attempting to maintain the reputation of a product. Then a bunch of fellation.

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guilty giggle at this

s197throwaway said:

The main reason I'm posting under an anonymous name is that it's possible that I'll race a s197 at some point in the future and I'd rather not burn my main Internet identity on this thread. Marque/Model forums tend to be pretty protective of their sponsor/vendors. Minor secondary reason is that I race and it's pretty trivial to figure out exactly who I am based on pictures of my car and race entries. I don't need some tough guy trying to cause me problems over the Internet.

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I can totally see this.

Vorshlag-Fair said:

This is one of the downsides to a "dual purpose" car with one set of wheels - you are rarely removing the wheels, so they almost never get inspected properly.

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I completely agree. I went through periods of time where I was traveling heavily for work and am guilty of not checking my single set of wheels/tires. Many times I drove to the airport, on race pads, early Monday morning after being at an HPDE all weekend.

I made room in the budget this year for a dedicated set of street wheels/tires, specifically because of finish damage from race pad dust and because I knew it would force me to check before every event.

cgwiita said:

It's occurred to me I keep referencing "the s2ki thread" but haven't linked it. I've been periodically updating the first post with relevant information, but newest information will always be in posts at the end of the thread.

http://www.s2ki.com/s2000/topic/1072676-forgestar-f14-17x10-data-thread

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A very informative read. Thank you for keeping the enthusiast community updated, and keep the info coming!

In case you haven't figured this out, this is the S2000 driver in question...

cgwiita said:

Terry can you measure one of your 17x10s in this location? I'm looking at some more recent pictures in my s2ki.com thread and I think Forgestar changed the casting--added a lot more material! Do you have a loose wheel you can weigh? Mine were 17.75lbs.

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I checked and yes, our 17x10 F14 has thicker spokes than this 3+ year old F14 17" version. I just talked to Vincent at Forgestar and here's the scoop:

The 17" F14 was designed in early 2013 and released at SEMA that year. They designed these to a 1400 pound rating, with a slightly different shape to the spoke that didn't match their 18" F14. Seeing that most 17" wheel buyers would only run 17" at both ends, it would have a lighter weight and look fine.

• Original F14 in 17" was rated at 1400 pounds (plenty strong for a 2600 pound S2000)
• The updated design for the 14" F14 is rated to 1520 pounds (due to aesthetics changes)
• The F14 in 18" is rated to 1520 pounds
• The F14 in 19/20" is rated to 1600 pounds (smaller sidewalls dictate this move)

Turns out some C5 Corvette guys ran the staggered Forgestar 17" front / 18" rear (just like the factory C5 wheels), and they wanted the 17" F14 spoke shape to match visually with the 18" F14 version. So Forgestar changed the mold for the raw 17" F14 wheel to match the spoke of the 18" F14, for aesthetics, then had the new wheel tested - which came to a higher 1520 pound rating (it also gained a small amount of weight). This change happened in mid-2014 and they ran through most of the lighter 1400 rated wheels sometime in 2015. All of their current F14 17x10" blanks are the 1520 rated wheels, like we the ones have on our car.



So this wasn't done as some "fundamental design change", or due to some failures, it was done strictly to match the appearance of the 18" F14 spokes. Yes, the new 17" F14 is stronger and matches the 18" F14 rating, but its not a huge difference in weight between the two designs (0.8 pounds, according to Forgestar). There is still more weight difference in pad depth changes from this S2000 set to say... our E46 set. Pad depth still does not dictate strength, either.

Picking wheel load ratings is kind of a no win situation for wheel designers. Pick a lower rating and you get a wheel with less weight, which racers like, but there's going to be some abusive user who will break one sooner. Then complaints come the FIRST time somebody wrecks a wheel. Pick a higher load rating and you will end up with a stronger but heavier wheel, and people will complain about weight. Lose-Lose.

We went through this with D-Force between 2006-2011. One of the wheels we helped them spec in 2007 for sizing was an 18x10" wheel for BMWs, which were built around a 1400 pound rating. When we went back to them in early 2011 to make a test set for our 3600 pound 2011 Mustang in the same size and offset, they did a "Drill and fill" on a BMW 18x10" wheel set to convert them from the BMW 5x120mm to the Ford 5x114.3mm pattern. These were still made for the lower 1400 pound rating but we beat the snot out of these wheels for 3 years on our car with track, autocross and street abuse. No cracks.



When we test fit them and liked it, we put in a 100 piece order to have this 18x10" wheel made for the S197 Mustang (nobody else at the time made an 18x10" wheel for the S197 that fit under the fenders at both ends). Tom at D-Force was concerned about the heavier Mustangs and we both agreed to add ~1.2 pounds to the wheel to move it up to a 1560 pound rating. The added thickness went into the spokes, just as the F14 change did. We did this to head off the "lowest common denominator" drivers who abused them, and so far we haven't regretted that. Yes, it made the wheel heavier, and we saw complaints when the production S197 18x10" wheel was heavier than the prototype. Lose-Lose...



There haven't been a rash of D-Force wheels failing but we still encourage our customers to clean and check their track wheels regularly - no matter the wheel brand. Some folks actually listen to us (see above). We did have one customer who broke the lighter spec BMW 18x10 D-Force wheels, but he broke everything on that car - because he constantly hit curbs, had big "offs", and drove 11/10ths everywhere. He was running in competition, and he "consumed" more consumables than most. We encouraged him to go to a heavier wheel and he has had no problems since. One of the rare issues with 18" D-Force failures - but again, it can be traced back to the user.

So while I have learned that there was indeed a change in wheel spec on the 17" F14, it wasn't drastic nor deemed necessary due to a string of failures. This is the first 17" F14 failure I've heard about - but it just got a LOT of internet coverage. Freagin car "news" sites reposted this guy's video, "helpful" Facebook users, forums, and on and on. I admit, it was a slickly made video and his side shot camera angle was perfect, showing the barrel come off. It would be hard not to share that... but I wish he would have made a phone call before he did. I honestly feel he threw Forgestar under the bus for something he directly contributed to more than any other factor.

Do I pick on the end user here a bit? Sure, I fully admit to discrediting this video, on purpose. Why? Because it needed to be. First of all, he ran these wheels for much longer than he led folks to believe. Over 2 years, approaching 3. Secondly, he HIT EVERY CURB ON TRACK, pretty damned hard, in the short video where his one wheel failed. Third, he had a 100+ mph "off" just a handful of weeks earlier at another track event, which he shows on his YouTube channel. We can also see in all of his track videos where his car's suspension is bottoming out HARD - both from curb hits and regular track bumps. The ride height is too low and/or the spring rates are too soft. This car also has aero at both ends, which adds more suspension compression at higher speeds, taking away suspension travel. Turns out he blew out some KW coilovers, too. All of these things point to more of a user issue not a wheel design problem. Even in the video he admits he should have inspected his wheels more frequently - because the cracks were OLD and had taken some time to completely fail.

The way he posted the video was not .... well, not how most adults would handle a potential product problem. Instead of spending the time to crop together his multi-angle video and pictures and screaming "THAT'S THE PROBLEM WITH FORGESTARS!!" as his wheel came apart (2.5 years after he bought them?!), he could have picked up a phone and called his wheel dealer or Forgestar directly. Sent them the video, where they could have pointed out his driving issues (curbs, offs) and setup issues (ride height too low) and age of the cracks (old) that contributed to the fatigue failure of all 4 wheels.

I'd be embarrassed if I had put this much effort into a video that pointed to me as the main problem. Because this video does just that, if you can look past the pretty camera angles and screaming kid behind the wheel. This failure didn't happen quickly - it took YEARS of this driver beating on these wheels to fail them. But what's most telling is that all 4 wheels had the same fatigue cracks, almost as if he had a high impact incident very recently that led to massive spoke failure on all 4 wheels. Again, the 100 mph "off" he had in his previous video was pretty rough, and I suspect that incident caused all of the cracks. It took another track weekend to fail a wheel, so again, this wasn't a spontaneous failure.

I'm really tired about writing about this ONE incident. As we have pointed out numerous times, we have NOT seen a pattern of spontaneous wheel failures with Forgestars, neither with our own cars or the hundreds of customers we've sold them to. This is the first documented fatigue failure we have seen with this brand. And trust me, I've only been tagged about 20 times on this ONE wheel failure, I'd know.

But like we've seen with ALL wheel brands, it was only a matter of time before someone failed a Forgestar. I can find similar fatigue failures for every brand of wheel EVER made. Endurance fatigue affects every wheel make, model and style. The other culprit - total lack of wheel inspections and massive driver abuse - also claim every wheel brand out there. As Forgestars gain in popularity they get into the hands of more and more users. The lower price point pushed them into the hands of.... well... kids, who often react like this guy did (overreacted). Straight to the internet, looking for attention. Don't bother to call the manufacturer - who was more than willing to look at the wheels, and even gave this guy ALL of his money back.

So let's just give it a freagin' rest. You can hate on me for standing up for a product I believe in, for a product I have tested and beat on and have real experiences with. Call me the the "bad guy" since I called out the driver for his massive abuses that led to this failure. Go for it, I've got thick skin, hehe. Its still the truth. These wheels just aren't the problem here. Let's cut out the new troll accounts, coming in here stinking up the place like a bunch of children, throwing an internet tantrum. The S2000 driver knows he has some setup problems, knows he hits a lot of curbs, knows he has had some big offs, and knows he has a string of other "parts failures". He seems to be owning up to this, at least a little but, but still wants to get as much fame out of this as he can. Whatever, he's young, and some day he might realize this wasn't the best way to handle this.

Cheers,

Slightly amusing that the "responsible" Mustang owner has the car jacked up with no jack stand in sight.

Mark Aubele said:

Slightly amusing that the "responsible" Mustang owner has the car jacked up with no jack stand in sight.

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No one was under it!


Sent from iPhone

Vorshlag-Fair said:

Do I pick on the end user here a bit? Sure, I fully admit to discrediting this video, on purpose. Why? Because it needed to be. First of all, he ran these wheels for much longer than he led folks to believe. Over 2 years, approaching 3. Secondly, he HIT EVERY CURB ON TRACK, pretty damned hard, in the short video where his one wheel failed. Third, he had a 100+ mph "off" just a handful of weeks earlier at another track event, which he shows on his YouTube channel. We can also see in all of his track videos where his car's suspension is bottoming out HARD - both from curb hits and regular track bumps. The ride height is too low and/or the spring rates are too soft. This car also has aero at both ends, which adds more suspension compression at higher speeds, taking away suspension travel. Turns out he blew out some KW coilovers, too. All of these things point to more of a user issue not a wheel design problem. Even in the video he admits he should have inspected his wheels more frequently - because the cracks were OLD and had taken some time to completely fail.

The way he posted the video was not .... well, not how most adults would handle a potential product problem. Instead of spending the time to crop together his multi-angle video and pictures and screaming "THAT'S THE PROBLEM WITH FORGESTARS!!" as his wheel came apart (2.5 years after he bought them?!), he could have picked up a phone and called his wheel dealer or Forgestar directly. Sent them the video, where they could have pointed out his driving issues (curbs, offs) and setup issues (ride height too low) and age of the cracks (old) that contributed to the fatigue failure of all 4 wheels.

I'd be embarrassed if I had put this much effort into a video that pointed to me as the main problem. Because this video does just that, if you can look past the pretty camera angles and screaming kid behind the wheel. This failure didn't happen quickly - it took YEARS of this driver beating on these wheels to fail them. But what's most telling is that all 4 wheels had the same fatigue cracks, almost as if he had a high impact incident very recently that led to massive spoke failure on all 4 wheels. Again, the 100 mph "off" he had in his previous video was pretty rough, and I suspect that incident caused all of the cracks. It took another track weekend to fail a wheel, so again, this wasn't a spontaneous failure.

I'm really tired about writing about this ONE incident. As we have pointed out numerous times, we have NOT seen a pattern of spontaneous wheel failures with Forgestars, neither with our own cars or the hundreds of customers we've sold them to. This is the first documented fatigue failure we have seen with this brand. And trust me, I've only been tagged about 20 times on this ONE wheel failure, I'd know.

But like we've seen with ALL wheel brands, it was only a matter of time before someone failed a Forgestar. I can find similar fatigue failures for every brand of wheel EVER made. Endurance fatigue affects every wheel make, model and style. The other culprit - total lack of wheel inspections and massive driver abuse - also claim every wheel brand out there. As Forgestars gain in popularity they get into the hands of more and more users. The lower price point pushed them into the hands of.... well... kids, who often react like this guy did (overreacted). Straight to the internet, looking for attention. Don't bother to call the manufacturer - who was more than willing to look at the wheels, and even gave this guy ALL of his money back.

So let's just give it a freagin' rest. You can hate on me for standing up for a product I believe in, for a product I have tested and beat on and have real experiences with. Call me the the "bad guy" since I called out the driver for his massive abuses that led to this failure. Go for it, I've got thick skin, hehe. Its still the truth. These wheels just aren't the problem here. Let's cut out the new troll accounts, coming in here stinking up the place like a bunch of children, throwing an internet tantrum. The S2000 driver knows he has some setup problems, knows he hits a lot of curbs, knows he has had some big offs, and knows he has a string of other "parts failures". He seems to be owning up to this, at least a little but, but still wants to get as much fame out of this as he can. Whatever, he's young, and some day he might realize this wasn't the best way to handle this.

Cheers,

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If I were a vendor and responded like you did, I would be embarrassed. I've purchased from you before, but never will again. I'd also post the same video the driver did because watching a wheel go flying off like that is pretty neat. The driver in the video hasn't called out Forgestar, and in fact their response in this situation is perfect - they'd offered him new wheels + a ball joint well before the video blew up, and the driver included this information in the posted video.

What I don't understand is why you're immediately so defensive about the issue. Yes, the driver should have checked his wheels more frequently. Yes, the driver hits a lot of curbs and has had a few incidents. Nowhere did he blame the wheels, and yet you immediately jump on him. I also don't get why you think he's done way more track events than 14, in 2.5 years - 5-6 events a year is a lot for a many people. Not everyone can afford getting to the track every weekend, and you've spouted this off a number of times.

A lot of cars will ride the bumpstops. See every miata with stock suspension running at a track/autocross.

It's pretty simple to address this without coming off like a dick. All it takes is one or two lines about how Forgestar stands behind their products, as seen by their replacement of his wheels + a ball joint, a reminder to check your wheels, and move on.

ha, fuck this guy ^^

throwaway baller

Wes06 said:

ha, fuck this guy ^^

throwaway baller

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Why? I thought it was a fair post.

ItsAThrowAway said:

The driver in the video hasn't called out Forgestar,

Nowhere did he blame the wheels,

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You mean besides where he points at the camera and says "So that's the problems with Forgestars, FUCK!?"

csamsh said:

You mean besides where he points at the camera and says "So that's the problems with Forgestars, FUCK!?"

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I took that as a joke, considering the rest of the information he's posted, as well as the fact that he's come out and said he didn't check his wheels frequently enough. I'd have the exact same reaction in the moment.

ItsAThrowAway said:

I took that as a joke, considering the rest of the information he's posted, as well as the fact that he's come out and said he didn't check his wheels frequently enough. I'd have the exact same reaction in the moment.

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So if a wheel comes off your car, you're supposed to think in terms of how awesome the incident was and how cool the video is going to turn out? Not "Whiskey-Tango-Foxtrot" followed by "oh shit"?


Norm

Norm Peterson said:

So if a wheel comes off your car, you're supposed to think in terms of how awesome the incident was and how cool the video is going to turn out? Not "Whiskey-Tango-Foxtrot" followed by "oh shit"?


Norm

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Some people just have that movie star quality.


Sent from iPhone

ItsAThrowAway said:

I took that as a joke, considering the rest of the information he's posted, as well as the fact that he's come out and said he didn't check his wheels frequently enough. I'd have the exact same reaction in the moment.

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I take you as a joke, too. It's really awesome of you to join this forum, I can't wait to hear you make a useful contribution. Also, can you post in the classifieds yet?

ItsAThrowAway said:

The driver in the video hasn't called out Forgestar...

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As stated before, he makes the "That's the problem with Forgestars," comment in the video, plus on top of the social media posts that people spread about this event with "Forgestars are crap! Don't buy!" Some of those posts claimed to be "friends" of the driver as well. So yes, the company itself was called out, when it was mostly driver error.

I'll give you that his comment in the moment at the end of his video can be interpreted as 'against' Forgestar. Based on the drivers responses, in which he routinely compliments (on this & other forums) their handling of the situation more than makes up for it, in my opinion.

Regardless of how you feel about the driver, my point about a certain vendor still stands. The response given was unwarranted and over the top. I only bothered bringing it up as they've lost a customer in me, and are being mocked on another forum or two, with posters indicating they've got no problem with Forgestar, but won't purchase from a certain vendor anymore. Will it hurt their bottom line? Probably not. Will I direct anyone who asks away from said vendor? Most definitely. Being a dick isn't cool.

Speedboosted said:

Also, can you post in the classifieds yet?

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On my main account, no problem!