do you guys leave ABS ON or OFF when at the track?

MadBee93

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When it is dry, not wet. Leave that thing on when it's wet :)

I was at Summit Point raceway last weekend, and my data showed consistent steady state cornering G-forces of about 1.15 G's, but the max braking G-forces was only about 0.98. (Tires were Nitto NT555 street tires). I tried to not active the ABS, and also with putting it into ABS and it would always max at about 0.98 G. Did ford set the max deceleration to about 1 g for OEM Mustang GT cars, thus making the ABS come on even without tire slide? Mine is a 2006 GT. I'm going to try deactivating the ABS next time I'm out at the track, but I wanted to see what other drivers are doing.

thanks!!
PS the brake rotors and calipers were OEM, the pads were hawk DTC-60 front, and HP+ rear.
 

SoundGuyDave

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The only way to "turn it off" is by unplugging the ABS controller under the hood, and I wouldn't do it. If you want to "tune up" the ABS, swap out the HCU for a GT500 piece, and install the Boss302S control module for it. That's calibrated for slicks, and will give you all the braking you can take. Also, due to the geometry of things (think in terms of load transfer as well as contact patches under compression), you're not going to get as much G load braking as you will when cornering. Just physics.

Also, with the stock brakes and DTC-60 up front, you might want to up your rear pads to HT-10. That provides a pretty good balance, and you may get a little less tail-wag under heavy decel.
 

csamsh

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Leave it on!!!! And try better tires if you want more decelerative G's.
 

MadBee93

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so it's not the stock ABS that's limiting my deceleration it just crappy tires and less than optimal suspension etc.. thanks! I was hoping that was the case.

It seems like the best thing to do in brake zones is to calibrate your foot to stomp on the brakes to the point just before ABS activates and keep it there. Is that what you guys are doing?
 

86GT351

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so it's not the stock ABS that's limiting my deceleration it just crappy tires and less than optimal suspension etc.. thanks! I was hoping that was the case.

It seems like the best thing to do in brake zones is to calibrate your foot to stomp on the brakes to the point just before ABS activates and keep it there. Is that what you guys are doing?

Correct. The Factory unit is sufficient. The GT500 Unit is just more efficient. Tires and Suspension along with good brakes are critical to performance.
 

SoundGuyDave

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so it's not the stock ABS that's limiting my deceleration it just crappy tires and less than optimal suspension etc.. thanks! I was hoping that was the case.
Actually, it's both. The stock ABS module DOES have a "maximum deceleration rate" limiter in it, which is governed by the ABS control module, but that could easily be overridden by (as you put it) crappy tires and less than optimal suspension. In essence, the module will not allow braking decel past a given rate, but the tractive capacity of the tires (crappy) and the control (or lack thereof) over the contact patch by the suspension do play a large part.

It seems like the best thing to do in brake zones is to calibrate your foot to stomp on the brakes to the point just before ABS activates and keep it there. Is that what you guys are doing?
Not only no, but HELL NO!! The closer you get to the limit in ANYTHING regarding road racing, the smoother and less aggressive you need to be. STOMPING on the brake pedal will give you the absolute maximum brake-application rate, however your stopping distance will actually be longer. When you "suddenly" apply brakes (panic stop or slam on the pedal), the load transfer forward will be violent, and will most likely overwhelm the suspension's ability to control that transfer. Think in terms of inertia. Hit the whoa pedal, and the ass-end tries to climb into the sky. Do it slowly, and the rear climbs slowly. Do it rapidly, and the rear climbs rapidly. Necessarily, when the back end is up in the air, there's very little load on the rear tires, and it won't take much to overwhelm the tractive capacity with the brakes. When you finally hit the point of maximum possible braking force, and the rear end is climbing slowly, life is pretty good. You can balance the brake bias at that point with pad selection, rotor diameter, etc to get the back and the front on the edge of lockup TOGETHER. IF the ass-end, however, has been snapped into the air, the inertia of all that mass moving will cause an overshoot, unloading the rear tires even further. Reduced tractive capacity, and thus reduced braking effectiveness.

How to brake? "Touch-press," as explained HERE. That's a sticky on track driving techniques on page 1 of this sub-forum... Short answer: you want roughly a 1/4-second (250mS) ramp rate between the first touch of the brake pedal, and having your foot all the way in. Keep that ramp rate linear, and will have control over the load transfer rate, and can feed it in as quickly as the suspension will take it. That control lets you get more effective braking through the entire braking event, rather than a sharper spike at the initial application, followed by a series of reduced dips in the braking trace until the suspension finally settles.

As you get closer to the limits, you really need to take the whole "slow down to go faster" mantra to heart. Slow down ALL your control inputs (wheel, gas, brake, clutch) and you will keep the car settled at all times, and thus able to provide maximum grip at all times. Then, it's up to you to USE all that available grip. Don't treat them like light switches, and you'll find yourself gaining pace pretty effortlessly.


Correct. The Factory unit is sufficient. The GT500 Unit is just more efficient. Tires and Suspension along with good brakes are critical to performance.
Yes, not exactly, and yes. The GT500 HCU isn't more efficient, it simply provides the hydraulic interface for an electronic module that is programmed for the type if braking we do on track. The stock GT HCU can't accept the Boss302S module, and the stock module was not programmed with sticky tires and repeated high-level braking events in mind. In the end, the brakes do NOT stop the car, but the tires do... And the suspension controls the tires.

The GT500 HCU/302S module is a high-end, race-ready setup, and is NOT required for track-day fun. It's so effective, that if you run that ABS setup in American Iron, it drops your power-to-weight ratio from 9:1 to 9.5:1. At the power levels of those cars, that's saying the 302S setup is worth the equivalent of 20RWHP. If you're running street tires, then you won't be touching more than a fraction of the capability of that setup. If I were in your shoes (and I was, believe me!), I would just work on proper braking technique until you start to learn where "the edge" is for your tire and suspension combo. Then focus on getting there EVERY time you hit the brake pedal.
 

MadBee93

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The stock ABS module DOES have a "maximum deceleration rate" limiter in it, which is governed by the ABS control module

any idea what that max rate is?
 

csamsh

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any idea what that max rate is?

Not high enough such that small (285 and under) street tires freak it out, low enough such that using a 315 Hoosier A6 does make it freak out. I don't really know numbers though.

Granted...my suspension was fairly optimized for a street legal track/autox car...as much as you can do anyway and stay within rules constraints.
 

SoundGuyDave

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Exactly. The stock setup works "okay" with 275mm Hoosier R6, but seems to cap out at right around 1G. At least on the 2006MY and 2008MY modules. Then again, that skinny of a tire, even in R6 compound, can't really do much more than 1G either. 3-axis accelerometer in a Traqmate, before anybody asks, with roughly the same data limits at about a half-dozen different tracks, ranging from club- to pro-grade.

I had my ABS fail on me in a race (harness clip in the rear broke, dropped the wiring harness onto the exhaust, burned through and shorted), and while the car was still very much driveable, it was a real eye-opener on exactly how GOOD that system is. I was getting lockup on the inside rear under trail-braking that I never even realized was being corrected for by the ABS... Very transparent, and it really doesn't pull much off the table until you get to some seriously high-end grip levels.
 

Mike Rousch

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I will add a few things on top of all this great advise. I did run with no ABS all last year and found it to be a little faster once you get used to it ( with about 25 more HP to match the AI rules ), This was making laps by myself in test sessions. Once you add other cars on track in a good HPDE session or race conditions you will find the ABS is a great thing to have and you don't have to worry about flat spotting the tires either. Not to mention as Dave said, you cant just unplug it. You will have entirely to much rear brake in the car.

I also found that on my car for what its worth the gt500 module stops a little better then the FR500c ( M-2353-A ) module. The FR seemed to add WAY to much rear brake to the car. Could be my tire combo adding to that to.
 

Vorshlag-Fair

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i-MnfKdps-M.jpg


I think the OP is confusing the Traction Control (aka: AdvanceTrac, aka: ASC, aka: ESC, aka: Stability Control) with with another electronic system, ABS.

Anti Lock Brake systems (ABS) don't have a "switch" to turn the system off. Ever. That's not how this works. You want to run with the ABS, always, unless you are a goofball. :insane: As others have said, to disable this system you need to unplug fuses and such... not advised!!! The S197 ABS system is quite amazing and IS ALWAYS FASTER THAN NO ABS. Always. ALWAYS.

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note: There are some racing classes (NASA American Iron, for instance) which give you a power-to-weight BONUS for taking the ABS system out of your car. The S197 is penalized an extra amount because this system is so good. Now I'd still argue to keep it, even with more weight/less power (to a degree). Running ABS limits (eliminates) brake induced flat spotting and allows you to brake later / out-brake other racers, to make passes happen that otherwise could not.

Traction Control/Stability Control is a different system, which interacts with the throttle and brakes to keep you from spinning the drive tires and to minimize chances of spinning (yaw control). This system CAN be turned off, and in the later S197 and S550 Mustangs there are multiple "levels" you can scroll through... and TOTALLY OFF is one of them (the hardest to get to). Yes, turn that big bag of crap off when you autocross or track your car, unless you are a total NOOB. Yes, even in the rain.

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How else are you gonna DRIFTORO!!!!!???

DSC_1644-M.jpg


What's more confusing is that the ABS and AdvanceTrac systems are intertwined a bit, but that still doesn't mean you can switch the ABS off.
 
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csamsh

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What's more confusing is that the ABS and AdvanceTrac systems are intertwined a bit, but that still doesn't mean you can switch the ABS off.

Do you know if they're intertwined to a degree more than "the traction control needs the wheel speed sensor to tell if you're spinning?"
 

5.M0NSTER

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Do you know if they're intertwined to a degree more than "the traction control needs the wheel speed sensor to tell if you're spinning?"
Yes, traction control and electronic stability control shut down if 1 WSS is faulty or unplugged. ABS goes into "keep alive" mode where is just divides brake torque split front to rear to prevent rear axle lock which can cause the rear end to come around. That is called Electronic Brake-force Distribution. ABS/TCS and ESC all reside on one controller, so they are in fact intertwined, but it takes more than 1 failure to switch ABS off all the way. Unless you take power away from ABS/TCS/ESC controller which shuts everything off.
 

travelers

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I think the OP is confusing the Traction Control (aka: AdvanceTrac, aka: ASC, aka: ESC, aka: Stability Control) with with another electronic system, ABS.

Anti Lock Brake systems (ABS) don't have a "switch" to turn the system off. Ever. That's not how this works. You want to run with the ABS, always, unless you are a goofball. :insane: As others have said, to disable this system you need to unplug fuses and such... not advised!!! The S197 ABS system is quite amazing and IS ALWAYS FASTER THAN NO ABS. Always. ALWAYS.

1sig2_DSC3469%20copy-M.jpg


note: There are some racing classes (NASA American Iron, for instance) which give you a power-to-weight BONUS for taking the ABS system out of your car. The S197 is penalized an extra amount because this system is so good. Now I'd still argue to keep it, even with more weight/less power (to a degree). Running ABS limits (eliminates) brake induced flat spotting and allows you to brake later / out-brake other racers, to make passes happen that otherwise could not.

Traction Control/Stability Control is a different system, which interacts with the throttle and brakes to keep you from spinning the drive tires and to minimize chances of spinning (yaw control). This system CAN be turned off, and in the later S197 and S550 Mustangs there are multiple "levels" you can scroll through... and TOTALLY OFF is one of them (the hardest to get to). Yes, turn that big bag of crap off when you autocross or track your car, unless you are a total NOOB. Yes, even in the rain.

B61G2000-M.jpg


How else are you gonna DRIFTORO!!!!!???

DSC_1644-M.jpg


What's more confusing is that the ABS and AdvanceTrac systems are intertwined a bit, but that still doesn't mean you can switch the ABS off.

What are the benefits of changing to the Boss ABS module on a '11 GT
 

Sky Render

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What are the benefits of changing to the Boss ABS module on a '11 GT
It's only needed if you're running super wide, super STICKY rubber. I'm not talking summer tires; I'm talking bias-ply professional-level road race stuff here. There are no benefits otherwise.

Sent from my Samsung Galaxy Note 4 using Tapatalk
 

travelers

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It's only needed if you're running super wide, super STICKY rubber. I'm not talking summer tires; I'm talking bias-ply professional-level road race stuff here. There are no benefits otherwise.

Sent from my Samsung Galaxy Note 4 using Tapatalk

Thanks I've been thinking about that for a while.
 

Vorshlag-Fair

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What are the benefits of changing to the Boss ABS module on a '11 GT

As Sky Render said it is more tuned for racing tires. When we moved from "DOT" 315 Hoosier A6 tires to 335F/345R A6 tires the AdvanvceTrac would go into fault mode and turn itself back on. Always.

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Right after we switched our NASA TT3 setup to the "BIG" tires, and had all of the issues, we then quickly added the -CA version of the ABS module. All of the traction control system faults went away - because Traction Control was 100% disabled with this new unit. I didn't really see any need for "better" ABS action, and that wasn't why we did this mod.

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But.... over the next 2 months months later I ran this car with the new ABS module at two street tire events. First was a Goodguys "All American Sunday" autocross, which I won handily, and the next was an Optima qualifier, which I also won. This was on 335mm BFG Rival tires (not the -S) and they have a LOT less grip than the Hoosier A6. Like a LOT less.

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Over those first two weekends the car worked amazingly well on street tires - better than it EVER had before. Especially the Optima event's "speed stop", which is really just a glorified launch + ABS test. The car stopped better and more predictably than it ever had on street tires (we had run Optima events + SCCA STX & STU class autocrosses on 140-200 treadwear tires before in this car).

DSC_1644-M.jpg


So while it was probably "designed" for race tires, the M-2353-CA ABS module does work on street tires (and if you ask me, it works damned well). If you can deal with the dash being lit up like Christmas and a loud "bonging" chime warning every 5 minutes or so. ;)

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For these reasons (warning lights + chimes - as shown above) I don't suggest using this ABS module for street driven cars. But for a competition car? ALWAYS. Your results may vary. Don't eat any wooden nickels. Some swelling may occur. Call your doctor if an ere.... well, you get what I'm saying. "You were warned".
 
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