Which track car to get? Your opinions please.

Voltwings · Sep 29, 2016

So i know i am new here, i have been a lurker for a while as i enjoy just sitting back and soaking up what random knowledge gets passed around, but i have a question i would now like to pick your brains with.

I'll provide a little background on myself: i have done HPDE since early 2014, so i am "good, not great," and in that time i have had an NB miata, a 5.0 mustang, and a mazdaspeed3 (currently driving the ms3). My Fiance' has a 2014 v6 that she tracks as well, and when the time comes it will be her dedicated track car (when she gets a mom car) and i am torn on what to make mine. This is not a decision that needs to be made right now, but since i have time to think its ended up driving me crazy and i've changed my mind a thousand times.

The discussion here is a 3v GT vs a 3.7 V6. Now, i ask that you really consider what i am saying here, not just a blatant "oh, get the v8," because her car is pretty dirty with 3.55s, 300 whp and a 6 spd. A 5.0 is out of the question, i couldnt afford to keep tires on it, which is why it got ditched in favor of (my second) MS3. I loved the car to death, just couldnt afford it, especially with us both tracking.

So here are my assessments of each car: The goal is 300 whp and as close to 3000 lbs as possible. The car will be stripped with a cage as budget permits. I am not interested in building it for a particular class, just an HPDE car. The only reason i would consider building for a specific class is for sake of resale value - something i will very much consider when the time comes.

Weight: near as makes no difference between the two
Horsepower: Both will hit 300, near as makes no difference between the two.
torque: Advantage GT, but the m6 in the v6 has a gearing advantage to the m5 in the 3v. We've only been to the drag strip once with her car, but it went 13.5 at... 106 if i remember right? Maybe 107? At any rate, not bad for the middle of Texas summer.

Brakes: Both use the exact same setup stock, so that's a moot point as both will need the same upgrade
Tires: both can fit the same rim and tire and with similar horsepower and weights its basically a wash.

exhaust: not performance related at all, but while her v6 sounds pretty good, V8 sound FTW. Not something i should use to make a decision though...

Price: Near as makes no difference for 2011-2014 v6 vs 2005-2009 3v and THAT is where the question comes in. For the same price i can get another v6 or a 3v, but the v6 often times will be half the age with half the miles... I know everything suspension related is going to get replaced anyways, but for things like the rear end, the engine, the trans, and the not so easy to replace components, that is a lot to consider. This car will be 90% track... hell, maybe even 100% track, so it will live a hard life once i get it, so reliability will matter a lot to me.

So considering the performance and price is virtually identical between the two, getting one with half the miles is the clear choice correct? I'm open to your opinions. Understand, i am not 100% set in my ways, but i will defend my case until thoroughly proven to be wrong, so i enjoy a good discussion but not arguing.

Careener · Sep 29, 2016

Get a used performance package v6. Very good balance and factory upgrades. Used engines are dirt cheap from the wreckers too. There is a noticeable power difference when running 94 octane
I would upgrade the driveshaft and brake pads and you should be good to go.

Voltwings · Sep 29, 2016

Careener said:
Get a used performance package v6. Very good balance and brakes from the previous gen GT.

Yeah, the 3v and 3.7 both use a 12.4" rotor, the PP v6 does get a slightly more aggressive pad though, as well as a 3.31 gear stock. At the end of the day though it will probably end up on OEM Brembos for regular track use, and a 3.31 gear still isnt quite enough gear for that little car haha, i'd probably get another set of 3.55s.

I do appreciate your input though, dont want to sound like im jumping down your throat with my response.

Careener · Sep 29, 2016

I was updating my post when you responded in case you're wondering why the text has changed.
I own a perf pack and it has kept up with or passed many cars it shouldn't have.
I don't see a big price difference between the V6 and perf packs used. I'm in Canada and our packaging was a bit different so I'm not sure if it holds true where you are.
My friend has a 2005 GT. There's is definitely more low end torque and you can feel it coming out if corners on his car. You have to wring out the v6 a bit but that's actually something I enjoy.

I copied this somewhere a few years ago. Bigger sway bars and stock GT struts are part of the pkg as well.

Stock Mustang V6 Performance Package parts:

Front Springs: BR33-5310-DB

Front Struts: BR33-18042-BD

Front Sway Bar: 34.6mm

Rear Springs: BR33-5560-CB

Rear Shocks: BR33-18080-BC

Rear Sway Bar: 24.0mm

The front springs (DB) do not cross-reference with any other Mustang besides the V6
Performance Package.

Voltwings · Sep 29, 2016

Yeah, the v6 does require a little more RPM, but luckily the filter is in a good spot and adding an oil cooler is quite easy. The 3v has that built in water / oil cooler that's really just a pain, and makes adding an oil cooler a much more complicated process.

Lord knows the v6 can take RPM too -_- her first track day out she had only been driving stick about a month and a half, so i asked her how it was going, and she said she was just using 3rd for the whole track.... which would have been fine, except the front straight should be about 125+ in her car lol so she was just sitting at like 7k in 3rd down the front straight. I about had a heart attack haha.

Speedboosted · Sep 29, 2016

Careener said:
I was updating my post when you responded in case you're wondering why the text has changed.
I own a perf pack and it has kept up with or passed many cars it shouldn't have.
I don't see a big price difference between the V6 and perf packs used. I'm in Canada and our packaging was a bit different so I'm not sure if it holds true where you are.
My friend has a 2005 GT. There's is definitely more low end torque and you can feel it coming out if corners on his car. You have to wring out the v6 a bit but that's actually something I enjoy.

I copied this somewhere a few years ago. Bigger sway bars and stock GT struts are part of the pkg as well.

Stock Mustang V6 Performance Package parts:

Front Springs: BR33-5310-DB

Front Struts: BR33-18042-BD

Front Sway Bar: 34.6mm

Rear Springs: BR33-5560-CB

Rear Shocks: BR33-18080-BC

Rear Sway Bar: 24.0mm

The front springs (DB) do not cross-reference with any other Mustang besides the V6
Performance Package.

I don't see the point at all of buying the performance pack. All those parts are OEM junk and will get replaced. It would be a waste of money in this situation.

The 3.7 is a really interesting motor. Pretty lightweight, revs well, lacks torque but that isn't a deal breaker. The 3v seems to be a good motor as well. Makes a ton of torque unless you swap out the stock cams, and will always make a tiny bit more power.

Aero wise, the 10+ body is a little better and looks better to me too. You say you couldn't afford to keep tires on the 5.0 but what do you think is going to be different about either one of these cars?

If I had to chose, I would do the 3.7 if its just a track car. As crazy as it sounds, since I'm currently doing a 3v swap, I think the 3.7 is better as most people don't want to spend the time to do the right mods on a 3v. The transmission in the 3.7 will have better gearing like you mentioned too.

Voltwings · Sep 30, 2016

Speedboosted said:
Aero wise, the 10+ body is a little better and looks better to me too. You say you couldn't afford to keep tires on the 5.0 but what do you think is going to be different about either one of these cars?

The 3.7 and 3v are both about 100 lbs lighter than the 5.0 off the bat (due to engine size, so that wont change when the cars go on a diet), and the give or take 100 less horsepower. It wont be a matter of how quickly they wear out, but 295s were small on the 5.0, and they'd probably be about good on this new car. So maybe not replacing the tires themselves any less often, but certainly replacing cheaper tires.

Norm Peterson · Sep 30, 2016

A 3v car can be a composed drive on the track. Over the last couple of years, mine has seen up to about 20% track miles - I refuse to buy a truck and trailer that I wouldn't use for anything else so it does get street duty (I'm retired, else it'd be seeing commute miles). I'm lazy, so this is copied/pasted/lightly edited text that was posted somewhere else only a couple of days ago. The important thing is that I've got 10 track days on the 285/35's and they're maybe half worn. FWIW, I'm basically an intermediate level driver - Group C per H.O.D. - though I'm lumped into the advanced/instructor run group at my home track's own track days (they don't do a separate group for solo/intermediates any more). Just under 1g braking, 1.2g or so cornering, soft acceleration compared to a 5.0 (that at least helps extend rear tire life). It's balanced well enough to be steerable on the throttle midcorner without too much trouble, but there's still a little push on exit that I may or may not have corrected with mods made since the last track day. I will note that the power curve flattens out as you close in on 6000 rpm, which corresponds to about 125 mph or so (3.55's, 25.9" tall tires).

So far . . . since this car is the ongoing development of a dual-purpose road course/street driver, it's mostly cornering performance related. I bought it new, had it built to order . . . about 8.5 years ago. About 45,000 miles on it to date, maybe a couple thousand of those on the track.

Ford Racing cold air & tune
Wider wheels & better tires for the street (18x9.5 GT500, 265/40 MPSS)
Even wider wheels & tires for the track time (18x11 Forgestars, 285/35 MPSS)
Koni yellow shocks & struts
Stranoparts adjustable sta-bars (front & rear)
Rod-ended front sta-bar endlinks (UMI)
Currie rear LCAs (poly/spherical)
OE PHB with stiffened bushings
BMR's GT500 Handling springs, shimmed to regain ride height in the rear.
A-pillar mounted Aeroforce Interceptor gauge
Velcro pads on the dash top for additional track day instrumentation
Carbotech track pads

Parts in hand but not installed yet . . .

14" Brembo kit
FRPP front control arms
FRPP hubs w/ARP studs
FRPP cut/clamp X-pipe
3" brake ducting kit (Vorshlag pieces)

With either of the cars you're considering, plus your fiance's car . . . do replace the front hubs with the FRPP/Ford Performance hubs. Better bearings, and more importantly, ARP studs.

Norm

Sky Render · Sep 30, 2016

If you can't afford to keep tires on a 5.0, how are you going to afford to keep tires on a 4.6 or 3.7??? :goofy_batman:

When autocrossing or hot lapping, they're all going to wear through tires at the exact same rate.

SoundGuyDave · Sep 30, 2016

I'll give you the metrics on mine; '06 GT chassis, bought new, currently gutted and caged, with a half-tank of gas and 150lb driver, it tips the scales at 3347. Gutted, mid-repair and pre-cage, I got as low as 3220. Unless you do some SERIOUS focused weight reduction ($$$) I don't think you'll hit a 3000lb target.

I'll also echo the comments on consumables... Tires, brakes and gas are the three biggest costs to tracking a car, and a pony car is a HUNGRY beast for that stuff.

Hoosier R7's are going to run around $1400/set (mounted/balanced), and depending on how you use them, can last 4-5 track days easily. Or, you can burn through them in a weekend. You can save some money running a street tire (Star Spec for example), but it's still north of $1K/set, and you'll have to plan on two sets over the course of a good season. They won't wear out, but they WILL heat-cycle out, particularly if you drive them on the street as well. The biggest wear comes from the biggest load, and that's cornering, so I wouldn't anticipate very much change in lifespan between the 3.7, 4.6 or 5.0 variants, since weight is weight, and cornering load is cornering load, and all three cars are pretty similar in those aspects.

Brakes are brakes, call it $275/axle in whatever your favorite flavor is. On a good tracking season, plan on two sets of fronts and one set of rears. Rotor wear will depend on a lot of variables. Cooling, braking technique, diameter, 1-piece or 2-piece, brand, etc. This is one place I've found that going to the "race" stuff actually saves money in the long run. The 13" stock stuff will get burned through at an alarming rate, and converting to a 14" (GT500) Brembo kit will pay off well, long term. Autozone rotors don't last as long as the Ford OE rotors (~25-35% shorter life before heat-checking to death), and are only a little bit cheaper. However, after I changed over to Girodisc 2-piece "race" rotors, I just can't kill the things. Better grade metallurgy, thicker rotor faces, redesigned cooling vanes, and the aluminum hat combine into a very long-lasting rotor, which despite the original cost, may well save money in the end. Jury is still out, and they're about 3x the cost of a GT500 OE rotor, but I'm into about 2x the hours on my first set, and they show no indication of being anywhere near done. This is including endurance racing, I might add, just for perspective.

Gas... Oh, boy! I don't have numbers on the V6 or the Coyote, but in mine (stock internal, all bolt-on motor, 6500RPM limit), I burn 13.8 gallons of 93-octane per hour at typical club tracks. So, for an endurance race of five hours, I budget SEVENTY-SIX GALLONS of go-juice, including practice and qual sessions. The higher revs really suck down the gas. Road America, by comparison, with three 135mph+ straights on each 4-mile lap, bumps the consumption number up by a full gallon per hour. Short-shifting at 6K will save on average around .3GPH.

If you really want to do open-tracking on the cheap, the answer is simple. Miata. One set of brakes every couple of years, two sets of slicks for a race season, and you can go 2.5hrs on a tank of gas, as opposed to 74 minutes for the S197. Same or better cornering loads, brakes like a dream, and the only thing missing is the grunt when you put your food down on the skinny pedal. Oh, and that snarling, crackling rumbling exhaust note. You will have to surrender your "man card," though if you track one... ;-)

I don't want to make it sound like I'm against you tracking an S197 platform, they are an absolute hoot to wheel around on track, but the expenses of a heavier, higher-horsepower car (Mustang, Camaro, GTO, Corvette, CTS-V, M3, et al) are simply part of the game. If you want to cut consumables expenses, you need to slow down and get lighter, period. Think Miata, 944, or one of the FWD buzz-bombs that might run in Honda Challenge. Those can be built on the cheap, and are easy on the consumables. With a tail-wind, they will get out of their own way, as well, but FWD is a very different beast to drive on track.

Voltwings · Sep 30, 2016

Voltwings said:
The 3.7 and 3v are both about 100 lbs lighter than the 5.0 off the bat (due to engine size, so that wont change when the cars go on a diet), and the give or take 100 less horsepower. It wont be a matter of how quickly they wear out, but 295s were small on the 5.0, and they'd probably be about good on this new car. So maybe not replacing the tires themselves any less often, but certainly replacing cheaper tires.

Sky Render said:
If you can't afford to keep tires on a 5.0, how are you going to afford to keep tires on a 4.6 or 3.7???

When autocrossing or hot lapping, they're all going to wear through tires at the exact same rate.

^^^ that was the thought process at least.

SoundGuyDave said:
1. I'll give you the metrics on mine; '06 GT chassis, bought new, currently gutted and caged, with a half-tank of gas and 150lb driver, it tips the scales at 3347. Gutted, mid-repair and pre-cage, I got as low as 3220. Unless you do some SERIOUS focused weight reduction ($$$) I don't think you'll hit a 3000lb target.

I'll also echo the comments on consumables... Tires, brakes and gas are the three biggest costs to tracking a car, and a pony car is a HUNGRY beast for that stuff.

2. Hoosier R7's are going to run around $1400/set (mounted/balanced), and depending on how you use them, can last 4-5 track days easily. Or, you can burn through them in a weekend. You can save some money running a street tire (Star Spec for example), but it's still north of $1K/set, and you'll have to plan on two sets over the course of a good season. They won't wear out, but they WILL heat-cycle out, particularly if you drive them on the street as well. The biggest wear comes from the biggest load, and that's cornering, so I wouldn't anticipate very much change in lifespan between the 3.7, 4.6 or 5.0 variants, since weight is weight, and cornering load is cornering load, and all three cars are pretty similar in those aspects.

Brakes are brakes, call it $275/axle in whatever your favorite flavor is. On a good tracking season, plan on two sets of fronts and one set of rears. Rotor wear will depend on a lot of variables. Cooling, braking technique, diameter, 1-piece or 2-piece, brand, etc. This is one place I've found that going to the "race" stuff actually saves money in the long run. The 13" stock stuff will get burned through at an alarming rate, and converting to a 14" (GT500) Brembo kit will pay off well, long term. Autozone rotors don't last as long as the Ford OE rotors (~25-35% shorter life before heat-checking to death), and are only a little bit cheaper. However, after I changed over to Girodisc 2-piece "race" rotors, I just can't kill the things. Better grade metallurgy, thicker rotor faces, redesigned cooling vanes, and the aluminum hat combine into a very long-lasting rotor, which despite the original cost, may well save money in the end. Jury is still out, and they're about 3x the cost of a GT500 OE rotor, but I'm into about 2x the hours on my first set, and they show no indication of being anywhere near done. This is including endurance racing, I might add, just for perspective.

3. Gas... Oh, boy! I don't have numbers on the V6 or the Coyote, but in mine (stock internal, all bolt-on motor, 6500RPM limit), I burn 13.8 gallons of 93-octane per hour at typical club tracks. So, for an endurance race of five hours, I budget SEVENTY-SIX GALLONS of go-juice, including practice and qual sessions. The higher revs really suck down the gas. Road America, by comparison, with three 135mph+ straights on each 4-mile lap, bumps the consumption number up by a full gallon per hour. Short-shifting at 6K will save on average around .3GPH.

4. If you really want to do open-tracking on the cheap, the answer is simple. Miata. One set of brakes every couple of years, two sets of slicks for a race season, and you can go 2.5hrs on a tank of gas, as opposed to 74 minutes for the S197. Same or better cornering loads, brakes like a dream, and the only thing missing is the grunt when you put your food down on the skinny pedal. Oh, and that snarling, crackling rumbling exhaust note. You will have to surrender your "man card," though if you track one... ;-)

5. I don't want to make it sound like I'm against you tracking an S197 platform, they are an absolute hoot to wheel around on track, but the expenses of a heavier, higher-horsepower car (Mustang, Camaro, GTO, Corvette, CTS-V, M3, et al) are simply part of the game. If you want to cut consumables expenses, you need to slow down and get lighter, period. Think Miata, 944, or one of the FWD buzz-bombs that might run in Honda Challenge. Those can be built on the cheap, and are easy on the consumables. With a tail-wind, they will get out of their own way, as well, but FWD is a very different beast to drive on track.

1. Yeah, my 5.0 was 3580 as it sat - full street trim as it was still a street car, and made give or take 400 at the wheels. With me and an instructor (i'm solo qualified now, but still opted for a 50/50 instructor, im not too proud to admit i could use help) lets call it a max of give or take 3880. So right around 9.7 pounds per hp. The car felt good, but just tore through consumables, so i figured the same power to weight would be a good target for the new car, hence the "as close to 3000 lbs as possible."

2. These cars will use street tires, we're not competing so we dont need anything fancy as far as tires go. Its kind of disappointing to hear you say this though. So even the lighter weight + less power you dont think either option will be any better on tires? Like i said, the largest size my 5.0 ever got was 295s, and that's too small, it realistically needs a 305-315. I cant imagine a 3.7 "needing" a 315, so the tire should be much more happy at that power / weight level at a 285? 295? So like i said, may not last any longer, but at least i'll be replacing cheaper tires?

3. Yeah, we actually have an abundance of E85 here, and the ability to transport it, so we run E85. It burns through it for sure, but its cheap, so that works.

4. I had a miata and i loved it, LOVED it. However, the pull of the mustang was just too addicting. If im going to be doing this just for fun, i want to have fun, and horsepower is fun haha. I know that's a bit hypocritical, but i feel everyone's goal realistically is "i want to have the most fun, for the least money possible." On the same track, the miata tops out at 110 on the straight, stang would do 145-150 if i had good brakes going into turn 1 (which was luckily a fast corner).

5. I have a mazdaspeed 3 now that i am tracking, and in stock form this car is good, really good. The stock ms3 with just my tune on it (i've been tuning turbo cars recreationally since about 2010) i went 2 seconds faster than my '13 5.0 with OEM boss suspension and 295 NT05s - not a great tire i know, but a hell of a lot better all around than stock. I believe my mustang was the faster car, but the Ms3 is just easier to drive fast. Where i am going with this however, is i have no desire to dump money into a FWD car. Its good as it sits, but my instructor with a gutted MS3, more power, coilovers, R-comps and badass brakes went 6 seconds faster than me... 2:10 vs like 2:04. Sorry, i just dont see the return on investment there, so this car is just to feed the itch for now.

Speedboosted · Sep 30, 2016

I really don't think the minimal weight difference will matter for tire wear. Fuel consumption will go to the 3.7 of course.

Have you thought about a S2000? I really like those cars, kinda seem to have everything you're looking for. I don't know a lot about their market right now though so who knows if there is anything decent within your budget.

Voltwings · Oct 1, 2016

Speedboosted said:
I really don't think the minimal weight difference will matter for tire wear. Fuel consumption will go to the 3.7 of course.

Have you thought about a S2000? I really like those cars, kinda seem to have everything you're looking for. I don't know a lot about their market right now though so who knows if there is anything decent within your budget.

God, i have thought about literally anything and everything. NC miata since they have more power than my old NB, C5 corvette, S2000, maybe and E46 m3 but probably not, maybe an evo 8... I have changed my mind a thousand times. It got to the point where i even made a spreadsheet attaching a weighted average to objective values like weight, spread between peak torque and peak HP, age, max tire that can fit, average price... The winner was actually a 5.0 based on the values i used for testing.

The reason i decided (so far at least) to get another S197 was because a friend of mine mentioned that it would cut down on the number of spares we would need.

Basically if we were both tracking the same platform i would only need to keep one set of spares (pads, rotors, etc) on hand, whereas with two platforms i would have to keep, and bring to the track, more. It made enough sense to make getting another S197 seem like the logical thing to do.

Gabe · Oct 1, 2016

How about a '15 V6?

The all-independent suspension would be better on the track, no?

Norm Peterson · Oct 1, 2016

So why not swap a V6/6MT into a non-running Miata?

Norm

Voltwings · Oct 1, 2016

Gabe said:
How about a '15 V6?

The all-independent suspension would be better on the track, no?

It would, but the prices may not have come down enough to make it affordable, and for all intents and purposes its a completely different platform from hers as far as suspension, brakes, and other spares are concerned.

Norm Peterson said:
So why not swap a V6/6MT into a non-running Miata?

Norm

They sell K-series honda engine kits for the NA and NB miatas. 250 whp all motor on pump gas in a 2200 lb car has win written all over it. Its a strong contender, and if i went this route i would probably get a pre OBD-II model so it could still be street legal even with a new motor and stand alone ECU (for those wondering, stand alones render the OBD-II useless, so you cant pass inspection because they cant get any data from it). The miata transmissions are basically glass though. The Factory 5 speed doesnt take tracking well, and with so many people trying to do 6-speed swaps they're becoming increasingly harder to find.

740weapon · Oct 1, 2016

The 3.7L will not be easier on tires than the 5.0 and both get faster the bigger the tire.

Voltwings · Oct 1, 2016

I dont know if i should be disappointed to hear people say that because basically i'm going to have to find some more money laying around, or happy because it means i get to track a 5.0 again haha...

SoundGuyDave · Oct 1, 2016

When you think of the physics of things, F=MA (force equals mass times acceleration) applies. Force involved is exerted through the contact patch of the tires. So if we accept that to run some trial ideas through, for example under braking, then you can see that mass and acceleration are roughly equivalent in terms of how they factor in. If a 5.0 is net 5% faster than a V6, but the weights are roughly the same, then you'll only have a 5% increase in force through the tires. IF, the V6 is 5% slower, AND 5% lighter (3325lbs vs. 3500), then you'll have a 10% decrease in force through the tires. That 10% decrease is not going to amount to a substantial reduction in tire wear... At that point, your tire and brake costs will remain roughly equivalent between the two chassis, so you might as well just "pony up" (pun intended) and track a 5.0, since the only REAL cost difference is the gas, and you get all the benefits of the GT (torque, exhaust tone, resale value, etc.)...

There, I bet you could sell that one to the wife!

Speedboosted · Oct 2, 2016

SoundGuyDave said:
When you think of the physics of things, F=MA (force equals mass times acceleration) applies. Force involved is exerted through the contact patch of the tires. So if we accept that to run some trial ideas through, for example under braking, then you can see that mass and acceleration are roughly equivalent in terms of how they factor in. If a 5.0 is net 5% faster than a V6, but the weights are roughly the same, then you'll only have a 5% increase in force through the tires. IF, the V6 is 5% slower, AND 5% lighter (3325lbs vs. 3500), then you'll have a 10% decrease in force through the tires. That 10% decrease is not going to amount to a substantial reduction in tire wear... At that point, your tire and brake costs will remain roughly equivalent between the two chassis, so you might as well just "pony up" (pun intended) and track a 5.0, since the only REAL cost difference is the gas, and you get all the benefits of the GT (torque, exhaust tone, resale value, etc.)...

There, I bet you could sell that one to the wife!

Math+Logic FTW.

I have to wonder if you can even afford to actually have a dedicated track car, not trying to be mean in any way. I mean, I don't even think keeping tires on it will be the biggest expense. Are you sure this is something you want to do?

I really like an S2k, lightweight, good horsepower, good chassis, looks good. No torque but just rev it higher lol.

Which track car to get? Your opinions please.

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