MCS/Vorshlag TT1 coilover installation adjustment

Flusher

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This last year has been brutal on me for free time. I need to make progress and get these coilovers installed. There is, however, one small issue that is causing me grief, the slot in strut body for the upper steering knuckle bolt.

I can't find the post right now, but, I believe Terry Fair wrote something to the effect that "Vorshlag goes to great lengths to prevent slipping" by installing a "slug" or offset bushing to positively locate the bolt and lock in this alignment adjustment. For illustration purposes, I have drawn the offset bushing or "slug" with 2-degrees of offset.

My questions are specifically about this slot in the strut body:

The OE shocks have a hole rather than a slot, so my first question is, what is this slot for? I am assuming, from a manufacturing standpoint, that this has something to do with one-size-fits-all. I can also imagine that it could be for tire clearance or at-the-track adjustment.

If this slot is for tire clearance adjustment, can I just make a bushing that locks the strut body all the way to one side for maximum clearance and be done with it? Or is this something where I need to assemble everything, align the car, measure the actual location of the bolt in the slot, and make specific offset bushings for each side of my car?

Does this slot have anything to do with the camber plates?

If this slot is used for at-the-track adjustment, in a similar manner to how the camber plates are used, and I wanted to make a ser of offset bushings, to facilitate making these adjustments, I would make a set with different offsets. In what increments should I make the offsets (1/8*, 1/4*, 1/2* 1*...)?

Does anyone actually rely on these slots for adjustment or are all adjustments made at the camber plates?

I have measured the slots and I see approximately 8-degrees of singularity. When holding the strut up to the steering knuckle, the body of the strut makes contact with the upper bolt boss, interfering with about half of the adjustable travel. At the very least, i would want to prevent the strut body from hard contact with the knuckle.

Thank you,20191013_221951.jpg 20191012_105516.jpg 20191013_223810.jpg
 

Norm Peterson

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The slot is what permits camber adjustability down at the strut to knuckle connection. You can use this adjustability for any of the following reasons.

Camber adjustment in a car that does not have camber plates. The positive location and the apparent use of regular OR fasteners (as opposed to the typical reduced-shank aftermarket "camber bolts) makes this a valid option, where use of half-strength aftermarket bolts that have no such positive means of maintaining camber would not be anywhere near as reliable.

Achieving a greater range of camber settings when combined with camber plates or Steeda's HD strut mounts which do offer a limited amount of camber adjustment.

Tire clearance.


Adjusting camber at the plates is typically easier, as you don't have to remove the wheels or get involved with fasteners that are under large amounts of installation torque.

I would expect the length of the slot to appear to provide greater adjustment than is actually the case as long as the slug is providing location in both directions. In your pictures it'd be the 'skinny side' of the slug that would have some minimum radial thickness to prevent strut to bolt boss contact.

I'd find out what I could set for cambers and determine what I'd need to make based on what I first thought I wanted for camber. Rinse and repeat if not satisfied. Seems easier than making a whole bunch of slugs most of which you might never use. Keep in mind that you may not end up with identical slugs, side to side, so make each one individually and mark it in some permanent fashion so if you ever swap them out you'll be able to tell where they belong.


Norm
 

oldVOR

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If you are using the Vorshlag CC plates, there is plenty of adjustment to obtain more than enough camber. I'd recommend using a flat slug to take up the space created when pulling the top knuckle hole away from the strut body. This position affords the most wheel/tire clearance to the strut body.
 

Flusher

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If you are using the Vorshlag CC plates, there is plenty of adjustment to obtain more than enough camber. I'd recommend using a flat slug to take up the space created when pulling the top knuckle hole away from the strut body. This position affords the most wheel/tire clearance to the strut body.

Thank you, this was my initial thinking as I would like to push the limits on tire/wheel width.

Yes, they have the Vorshlag "Revised" Camber Plates. Being that i have zero experience with camber plates, I don't know what my limits will be.

Rereading ddd4114's post in Tire Selection for NASA TT, he states, "I'm running -3.7 deg of camber. I try to do most at the camber plates (but not all, just to allow for some adjustability), but I inevitably have to use some of the slotted hole on the top of the struts. I'm guessing I have them adjusted at ~1/3 of the way from the "minimum camber" position or whatever you call it. Adjusting camber that way adversely affects wheel clearance in a hurry."

Terry's speculated that ddd4114, with real aero loading should be closer to -4-degrees, "Which you might not be able to get with some ride heights at the limit of the towers... sometimes "you have to cut..." and "If you push the slotted joint all inboard, you get crazy camber but the tire likely rams into the strut. If you go all the way out with this slot, you will have loads of inboard wheel room but still push the wheel outside the fender, even with max camber and cut towers. It takes a little bit of both..."

So that adds more questions to my list.

How much is adjustability compromised at the camber plates by maximizing tire clearance?

At the moment, I am only thinking HPDE, but this car IS primarily a DD commuter. I have read that there are classes that don't allow cutting the strut towers. Is it a bonehead idea to cut the strut towers, at this stage, while I'm installing the coilovers?
 

Flusher

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The slot is what permits camber adjustability down at the strut to knuckle connection. You can use this adjustability for any of the following reasons.

Camber adjustment in a car that does not have camber plates. The positive location and the apparent use of regular OR fasteners (as opposed to the typical reduced-shank aftermarket "camber bolts) makes this a valid option, where use of half-strength aftermarket bolts that have no such positive means of maintaining camber would not be anywhere near as reliable.

Achieving a greater range of camber settings when combined with camber plates or Steeda's HD strut mounts which do offer a limited amount of camber adjustment.

Tire clearance.


Adjusting camber at the plates is typically easier, as you don't have to remove the wheels or get involved with fasteners that are under large amounts of installation torque.

I would expect the length of the slot to appear to provide greater adjustment than is actually the case as long as the slug is providing location in both directions. In your pictures it'd be the 'skinny side' of the slug that would have some minimum radial thickness to prevent strut to bolt boss contact.

I'd find out what I could set for cambers and determine what I'd need to make based on what I first thought I wanted for camber. Rinse and repeat if not satisfied. Seems easier than making a whole bunch of slugs most of which you might never use. Keep in mind that you may not end up with identical slugs, side to side, so make each one individually and mark it in some permanent fashion so if you ever swap them out you'll be able to tell where they belong.


Norm

Thank you Norm.

The 3rd picture illustrates where there is interference between the upper boss and the strut body. The knuckle is sitting lug nuts down on the work bench. The strut body is actually resting on the knuckle boss, prohibiting approximately half of the possible travel. I really didn't want to remove material from the boss unless it will really improve my setup. As an engineer, what would you do in this situation? Would you just live with the limited adjustment or would you fit the boss to the strut for optimum alignment settings?

I have a CNC mill, so I could knock out a set pretty quickly. The problem is, i had irreconcilable differences with my former business partner and I had to leave that facility. I am hoping to be relocated, solo, by the middle of November. Then the issue of running 3-phase and air. Making these will be priority after that

My thoughts on making these:

The hole diameters in both the knuckle and the strut as well as the slot width are .550 inches. My initial thought would be to match the ID of the bushing to the .550" ID of the knuckle and strut. I would make the elongated boss either a light press or .001" total clearance.

I totally understand that each side might need to be different. The number of bushings i would need to make would only be for one half of the slot. Reversing the bushings would account for the other half. However, if I don't clearance the boss, I would only have half of the potential travel anyway.

So my next question is, what is the smallest fractional degree of adjustment necessary to dial-in one's alignment? and Do you think that there would be a 1:1 relationship in degrees of change at the slot versus degrees of change at the tire when combined with the camber plates?

Thanks again.
 

Norm Peterson

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I'm guessing that reasons for why it looks like there's so much more room in the slot than you can use include tolerances in the strut and its 'ears', tolerances on the knuckle, and to keep the slugs from ending up being too thin between the ID of the bolt hole and the OD where it fits into the slot. I imagine Jason M. would have answers to those questions.

I realize that it may be possible to knock these slugs out fairly quickly with the right equipment. But since you can run quite a lot more negative camber on the street than Ford's preferred setting I don't think you'll need to be able to adjust camber in two places. Though the more negative you set your street camber, the harder your typical cornering might have to be to better balance wear (not that that'd be unpleasant to have to do). The picture in my sig is showing something like -1.9°, maybe -2.0°, never below -1.7° even at delivery, and it's been just fine there for around 50,000 street miles separate from the track time.

I'd take a "wait and see" attitude after the first set, when you've got a better idea where/which direction you want to go. At that point, you might shoot for something like 0.2° or 0.3°different with the second set.

For HPDE and street tires at least up to Sport Cup 2 level, I wouldn't worry about camber resolution below 0.1° (what most digital angle finders read to).

You can also run tighter tire to strut clearance than most people are comfortable with on a purely visually basis, if you can run the tires on wheels out at "max recommended". for the tires Sometimes much tighter.
This did not rub, not even out around datalogged 1.3g lateral. 285/35's on 11" wide rims. For higher g's and/or 305's on 11's (being just a tad less rigid laterally) would probably need a little more clearance. I'm not looking at what the wider tire would need, as you'd fix that with thinnish spacers, I'm thinking 5mm could be enough.

DSC03379-web.jpg

Measured clearance . . . around 0.044".


Norm
 
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oldVOR

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I compared the factory strut to the MCS strut; the body diameters are the same as well as the hole offset from the body of the strut to the fixed lower hole and outer most position in the slot of the upper hole in the MCS strut. As has already been noted, moving inboard in the upper slot of the MCS strut will reduce available wheel/tire clearance compared to a factory strut.

The below shots reference a -1.7° camber setting with a factory strut tower opening and Vorshlag CC plates. The CC plates are just past the second hash mark. With approx 1/8" clearance from the strut shaft to the tower opening, I can attain -3.4° camber with the CC plates just under the fourth hash mark. The shop that did the alignment thinks -6.0° is max with the tower openings enlarged and the CC plates adjusted to max, just past the sixth hash mark.

i-66D7h3X-X3.jpg

i-Cjh4krq-X3.jpg
 

ddd4114

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The quote you posted from me is still true; I have the knuckle adjusted somewhere between 1/4 and 1/3 from the end that would give maximum tire clearance, and that will allow me to get -4.0 to -4.2 deg of camber using the camber plates. However, I've cut the shock towers for clearance so I can maximize caster. Before I did that, I was easily able to get -3.0deg without cutting the shock towers and using the "OEM" caster setting on Vorshlag's camber plates. You mentioned that this car will primarily be used as a DD, so I assume you're planning to run a modest amount of camber, maybe in the -1.5 to -2.0 range. In that case, you shouldn't have to cut the shock towers, and I'd start with the knuckles adjusted to the max-tire-clearance position in the strut slot or maybe slightly inboard. I would definitely not install the struts with having the knuckle anywhere near the inboard side of the slot because it will likely rub. I tried that once, and I would rub the OEM 255mm PZeros against the strut if I even began to push the car in turns. To make it work, you would have to push the wheels out with spacers, and I'd only do that as a last resort.

Honestly, I think you're over-complicating this by machining spacers even if you have access to a CNC mill. I've been using MCS struts for several years, and even with 1.5g of grip at the track and occasional driving on pothole-ridden Ohio roads with very stiff springs, I've never had the knuckle slip in the strut. Just make sure everything is clean and oil-free when you assemble it, and torque the OEM bolts to spec (166 ft-lb). Similarly, I've never had the camber plates slip, and I basically just snug the nuts after adjusting alignment. I check my alignment 2-3 times a year, and it always repeats. I even hit a wall once that resulted in a bent control arm and knuckle, and that didn't even make anything slip. I can understand how the spacers might give you peace of mind, but since you said you don't have much time to spend working on your car, just keep it simple. If you're only making the spacers for alignment purposes, I would just invest in some camber plates because it will be a PITA to adjust camber without them. Using camber plates, you can make adjustments in a few minutes with a socket, a ratchet, and two wrenches to correct toe. It would take a lot longer to make adjustments by adjusting the knuckle even if you know exactly which spacers to use.

Hopefully that answers all of your questions.
 

Flusher

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Thank you all. I will be back in the US on November 8th and will dig deeper into looking at these then. In the meantime, I will continue reading as connectivity is available.

Thanks again
 

modernbeat

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Though we used something like that in the past with another model strut, we don't use them anymore. After a couple torque cycles we just replace the bolts. Make sure they are torqued properly and you shouldn't see any slippage.
 

Flusher

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Woohoo, a hotspot!

Thanks again VOR and ddd, I appreciate the numbers. ddd, are you using any specialty tools like the QuickTrick for alignment adjustments?

Thank you Norm, has your alignment procedure changed recently?

Honestly, I haven't thought at all about alignment numbers beyond what Norm posted that works good for him.

Thank you Jason, will contact you soon regarding another PO.
 

ddd4114

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I'm lucky enough to have access to a laser alignment rack at work, so I use that most of the time.

However, at the track, the only tools I use for alignment are a set of toe plates and an inclinometer:
While I've only messed with alignment a few times at the track, camber has been within 0.2 deg compared to the alignment rack, and that's good enough for me. I'm not good enough to notice a 0.2 deg change. I haven't done the conversion between inches and degrees to see how close toe is, but since I've never noticed the steering wheel being noticeably off-center even at 135mph I haven't worried about it.
 

Norm Peterson

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Thank you Norm, has your alignment procedure changed recently?
No recent changes.

Not that any of the changes I've made since first starting to do this almost 40 years ago amounted to anything more than detail variations on how camber and toe were being measured. The wrench work is still just the wrench work, and a little patience is still required.


Norm
 

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