oil pump harmonics?

mike maloney · Mar 1, 2020

Having a strange issue on a mechanical oil psi gauge I put on my 2014 coyote.I put a 75" long braided stainless reinforced Teflon line 3/16" reducing to 1/8" copper line 3" to the gauge.
On engine running I am hearing a slight chatter at the gauge.I pulled gauge off and put another one (both are bosch 0-100psi) Made sure the 1/8" copper line is completely open &
the needle is steady)Still getting the chatter. Felt line & started feeling pulsing about 50" from oil line connection at oil pump.Pulsing increases as rpm increases.Is it possible the reduction of oil line at the gauge is causing this? Iwill be plugging line before reducer fitting just to check if
pulsing quits.if it does not quit,any suggestions? (oil psi shows 100 cold &50-60 warm idle)

[

Sky Render · Mar 1, 2020

Do you have the required loop in the oil line going to the gauge?

mike maloney · Mar 1, 2020

describe size of loop

Flusher · Mar 2, 2020

That oil pressure seems a bit high.

I'll throw out the disclaimer that I don't know the intricacies of the oil system on these engines.

I have built many Mopar, Chevy, and a few Fords. I had a problem with More's Law - If some's good, more's better! Basically I felt the need to install high pressure/high volume oil pumps when they weren't required for the build. I also felt the need to run extremely heavy weight oil.

The results were: blown oil filters and destroyed distributor gears.

Another issue that I discovered when I had extreme differences in pressure between cold and operating temperature, besides oil viscosity, is a sticking oil pressure relief valve.

It's my guess that you have an issue with the oil pump pressure relief valve. Maybe some debris from the previous damage or a burr from poor quality control during manufacturing of the oil pump.

I don't buy that the difference in conduit size, i.e. the transition between the SS braided Teflon line and the cooper tube is an issue. That is a dead headed branch of the circuit, there is no flow there.

I would however recommend that you get the correct fitting to install the SS line directly to the gauge, so the copper doesn't fatigue and crack, spraying hot oil all over your interior.

If you feel the need to run such high oil pressure, please make sure that your oil filter can tolerate the pressure. When I was going through my learning curve, i had to go with the Fram HP series or the K&N. Also the Wix/Napa Gold, but I heard that there was a change in manufacturing location. Baldwin is also a really good filter, but I'm not sure if available for this application.

One final thought, it takes horsepower to turn the oil pump. If you have unnecessarily high oil pressure, just for the sake of More's Law, you have parasitic loss, additional wear on related components, and bearing erosion.

mike maloney · Mar 2, 2020

this is just a factory stock coyote engine which has higher oil psi than I think is necessary,but ford must have designed motor for this.Iam going to buy another gauge with an 1/8" npt male on the gauge for direct fit to line. THANKS

Midlife Crises · Mar 2, 2020

From what I have seen and read. It is not uncommon to have 100 psi at start up. My 3V does that. Hot idle at 30 psi is ok too. The pulsation is from the gearoter pump. The long flexible hose your running might make it worse.
I would screw a sending unit into the oil filter adapter and use an electric gauge. No oil in the cabin and pulsing is dampened out.

mike maloney · Mar 2, 2020

Iwould say you are right. I plugged line at the top and pulsating still exists. Thanks

Coosawjack · Mar 5, 2020

My 2014 5.0 had 100 PSI cold idle and about 40 PSI hot idle........85-90 PSI hot above 2500 RPMs!!

My 2019 car must control Oil Pressure with a bypass controlled by the computer since I only see HIGH PRESSURE under high load conditions....cruising at 60 MPS it shows about 30 PSI until I load the engine then it goes up accordingly 80+ PSI on hard acceleration.....WOW!!

I guess the lower the OP under non-stressful situations for better fuel mileage??

travelers · Mar 26, 2020

Did you bleed the air in the line before you took a reading?

01yellerCobra · Mar 26, 2020

Flusher said:
That oil pressure seems a bit high.

I'll throw out the disclaimer that I don't know the intricacies of the oil system on these engines.

I have built many Mopar, Chevy, and a few Fords. I had a problem with More's Law - If some's good, more's better! Basically I felt the need to install high pressure/high volume oil pumps when they weren't required for the build. I also felt the need to run extremely heavy weight oil.

The results were: blown oil filters and destroyed distributor gears.

Another issue that I discovered when I had extreme differences in pressure between cold and operating temperature, besides oil viscosity, is a sticking oil pressure relief valve.

It's my guess that you have an issue with the oil pump pressure relief valve. Maybe some debris from the previous damage or a burr from poor quality control during manufacturing of the oil pump.

I don't buy that the difference in conduit size, i.e. the transition between the SS braided Teflon line and the cooper tube is an issue. That is a dead headed branch of the circuit, there is no flow there.

I would however recommend that you get the correct fitting to install the SS line directly to the gauge, so the copper doesn't fatigue and crack, spraying hot oil all over your interior.

If you feel the need to run such high oil pressure, please make sure that your oil filter can tolerate the pressure. When I was going through my learning curve, i had to go with the Fram HP series or the K&N. Also the Wix/Napa Gold, but I heard that there was a change in manufacturing location. Baldwin is also a really good filter, but I'm not sure if available for this application.

One final thought, it takes horsepower to turn the oil pump. If you have unnecessarily high oil pressure, just for the sake of More's Law, you have parasitic loss, additional wear on related components, and bearing erosion.

Can't compare the old push rod engines to these. Have to remember there's a lot more going on in these engine. VVT, timing chain tensioners, whole bunch of lash adjusters and followers. His oil pressure is normal for the newer engines.

Personally I'd switch to an electric. Having a line split and shower my carpet with hot oil wasn't fun.

Juice · Mar 27, 2020

100psi on cold start is what I see on mine. Idle hot hovers around 28psi. 65-75 psi just crusing at highway speeds. And that is with 0-40 M1 oil.

Flusher · Mar 27, 2020

01yellerCobra said:
Can't compare the old push rod engines to these. Have to remember there's a lot more going on in these engine. VVT, timing chain tensioners, whole bunch of lash adjusters and followers. His oil pressure is normal for the newer engines.

I see that now, however I did look at my son's 2nd gen coyote oil pump and it indeed has a mechanical pressure relief that bypasses internally. I also learned that there has been been a revision to prevent oil filter failure.

I can't find the video, that someone posted on yellowbullet, that shows the oil flow past the lifters in a big block Chevy where the lifter bores are just .0005" oversize.

Isn't anybody the least bit curious why there is a 50+ PSI drop in pressure between cold and operating temperature? These engines must hemorrhage oil terribly.

I guess it is a strong argument to warm up your engine before you take it out and stand on it.

SilBult · Mar 27, 2020

I don't think you can compare oil pressures from old style pushrod engines to the Mod Motors or even to the GM LS/LT and 3rd. gen Mopar hemis. All of the old style pushrod engines drove the oil pump off of the cam drive and so it only turned at 1/2 engine rpm. Mod Motors and both of the GM and Mopar late model pushrod engines drive directly off of the crank and hence run at full engine rpm. Late model engines also specify fairly thin oils compared to most of the older engines so it's no surprise that they would have a wide variance in pressure from cold to hot and from idle to redline. My '14 GT with 5/30 Mobil 1 varies from just under 100 psi at cold start idle to 25 psi at hot idle. Above 4,000 rpm it will be close to 100 psi hot. These readings are from an electric Autometer gauge.

Juice · Mar 27, 2020

Flusher said:
...

I guess it is a strong argument to warm up your engine before you take it out and stand on it.

No, high oil pressure is not the reason. Your piston to bore clearance, more specifically, you want the pistons and block to be at temp before you run any engine hard. Cold pistons the piston skirts will make 2 nice vertical grooves in your cylinder walls.

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