Engine Running Rough

Dino Dino Bambino

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First obvious things i noticed:
1. At startup, FUELSYS1 is Closed Loop, AND it goes in an out of CL - Fault
2. FUELSYS1 goes into Open Loop, then OL - Fault and stays there.
3. FRP_REL - fuel rail pressure fluctuates between 38.5 to 40.5. (not sure this is normal, but adding this for the KOER results).
4. O2S11 - O2 Sensor Bank1, sensor1: This sensor ranges from 0.00 to 0.81 V while P2S21 reads between 0.07 to 0.08V. I wonder why the huge Voltage range with the Bank1 sensor?
4. No DTC codes

Firstly, the fuel pressure is normal so that rules out a fuel delivery problem from the pump to the injector rails.
Secondly, your O2 sensor Bank 1 Sensor 1 is fluctuating in the normal range, but Bank 2 Sensor 1 (driver's side) is stuck at full lean.
Likely causes are:
1. Driver's side vacuum leak.
2. Driver's side injector clogged up.
3. Driver's side O2 sensor wiring shorted.
4. Driver's side exhaust manifold gasket leak.
 

08Bullitt_0067

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Firstly, the fuel pressure is normal so that rules out a fuel delivery problem from the pump to the injector rails.
Secondly, your O2 sensor Bank 1 Sensor 1 is fluctuating in the normal range, but Bank 2 Sensor 1 (driver's side) is stuck at full lean.
Likely causes are:
1. Driver's side vacuum leak.
2. Driver's side injector clogged up.
3. Driver's side O2 sensor wiring shorted.
4. Driver's side exhaust manifold gasket leak.

Thanks Dino. So it was the drivers side sensor that was pegged at .07-.08 indicating the issue. Good to know. I'll be checking everything there and if visual checks don't show anything, I'll go with a spray method. I haven't done that for year, but im sure the concept is still the same.

Also, could that drivers side sensor be bad?
 

Dino Dino Bambino

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It's unusual for the O2 sensor itself to go bad and be stuck in a lean bias. Usually it gets stuck in a rich bias instead. Check that the wiring isn't damaged.
A vacuum leak on the driver's side can be caused by a faulty PCV hose from the left valve cover to the intake manifold, or a faulty hose from the brake booster.
 

GlassTop09

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In addition to what Dino said, don't leave out B1S1 to test\check out as the P2195 DTC is for B1S1 (P2197 DTC is for B2S1) so the PCM thinks this B1 front O2 sensor is biased lean as well even though the B1S1 O2 Sensor amplitude check test shows B1S1 as normal so don't assume that it is Ok until you verify it to be. Since you have LT headers installed the 1st wiring I'd check are both front O2 sensor wire extensions for fidelity...………..
The 1 key piece of info you gave is that you have a Whipple SC installed....
1.) Are these front O2 sensors the original sensors that were present when the SC was installed? How long have they been in service since SC install? How long have they been in service period?
2.) Did all this issue start up after running the car under boost for any length of time (drag strip, roll racing, hooning, etc)?
3.) Is the SC bypass valve fully open & unrestricted while engine is idling (you did mention idling high)?

These front O2 sensors (assuming they are NB O2 sensors since this post is in the 4.6L tech section....didn't see MY of car posted) can get burned out from the excessive heat output while under boost (exhaust temps can easily exceed 1,800*F +, getting close to the max safe temp operating range for front NB O2 sensors) depending on the tune fueling during part throttle\WOT as PCM is in OL (disables adaptive fueling) so fueling is fixed to the conditions present while initially being tuned. Yes, any vacuum leaks occurring since then will certainly amplify this but in order to really diagnose this well you really need to focus on both of those front O2 sensors 1st to get them verified operating properly before going further, especially since you have a SC installed.
And for the record, instead of spraying to check for vacuum leaks I'd seriously recommend to get the whole induction side smoke tested while the engine is cold to find any\all vacuum leaks & to also check the EVAP system for vacuum leaks (unless you already have this system disconnected) starting w\ the EVAP CPV then moving to the rest of this system....these cars are getting old & these systems are degrading thus failing.
The PCM picks up on any vacuum leaks as soon as the O2 sensors come online (usually the engine's ECT is < 50*F)….this is the issue w\ spraying if you wait for the engine to warm up before doing this as the leak(s) can be hidden due to material expansion closing off\restricting the leak(s) due to heat AND is another reason why you need to focus on getting the front O2 sensors operating properly 1st in order to verify the rest of the issues noted.

The front O2 sensors that were used by Ford when these cars were manufactured are the NTK 22060 O2 sensors (these have a full 0v-1v operating swing range...I have witnessed them operating at this full voltage range) & are desired as the PCM O2 sensor amplitude self-check test min-max test range is .2v-.8v (the O2 sensor voltage sine wave has to cross .2v on the low end & cross .8v on the high end within a certain amount of time in ms....the less time they need to exceed the amplitude threshold the better the O2 sensor is operating so faster is better thus more accurate) so a front O2 sensor has to meet this test threshold to pass OBDII (the other 2 are the heater voltage test & the inference test--or calibration test to see if the O2 sensor is inferencing center scale or .450v). This is the issue w\ running the BOSCH #15717 O2 sensors as their indicated voltage amplitude swing range is .2v-.8v which is right on the edge of the PCM self check O2 sensor amplitude test (but they are the alternative O2 sensor that Ford has recommended to use & is using recently for all factory OEM replacement O2 sensors for our 05-10 S197's...for normal NA usage). Any time you see any fault given in the fuelsys1 PID (PCM OL-CL status) there is an issue(s) happening during the status shown so your PCM is flagging component issues occurring during both OL & CL status....the main components being flagged are the front O2 sensors....both of them.

This is a good segway to suggest to install a set of WB O2 sensors in tandem for a backup system to the OEM NB O2 sensors to ensure AFR due to you having a SC installed...….also to keep a spare set of front NB O2 sensors on hand as well also due to you having a SC installed.

Hope this helps.
 

08Bullitt_0067

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1.) Are these front O2 sensors the original sensors that were present when the SC was installed? How long have they been in service since SC install? How long have they been in service period?
2.) Did all this issue start up after running the car under boost for any length of time (drag strip, roll racing, hooning, etc)?
3.) Is the SC bypass valve fully open & unrestricted while engine is idling (you did mention idling high)?

Hope this helps.
Wow this is some good info from you guys...

1.) I believe they are the OEM O2s. I never changed them when i installed my headers way back in 2010. After I dropped the valve and killed the OEM motor, I brought it to a shop to have a new (built) motor put in and I added a used whipple to that install. That was in late 2018/early 2019. I don't know if the shop installed different O2s at that point.

2.) The issues started on my drive home from work. No extended boost runs, maybe a few short bursts into boost is all. I came up to a stop light and noticed the car was surging up and down looking for a the normal idle.

3.) I am not sure here, how can I tell besides a high idle? Yes, when the idle does eventually settle, it's higher than normal, but it starts surging up and down shortly after. I also have comp 127500 cams installed. I think i remember reading somewhere that those cams can make the bypass valve work a little different.

I just noticed my jack stands are in storage still as I just moved a few months back. Once i get those, i'll get the car up and start doing visuals underneath. Also, looking into new O2s as suggested.... and re-read everything that was posted. very technical and im trying to take it all in.

Thanks again guys.
 

GlassTop09

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Wow this is some good info from you guys...

1.) I believe they are the OEM O2s. I never changed them when i installed my headers way back in 2010. After I dropped the valve and killed the OEM motor, I brought it to a shop to have a new (built) motor put in and I added a used whipple to that install. That was in late 2018/early 2019. I don't know if the shop installed different O2s at that point.

2.) The issues started on my drive home from work. No extended boost runs, maybe a few short bursts into boost is all. I came up to a stop light and noticed the car was surging up and down looking for a the normal idle.

3.) I am not sure here, how can I tell besides a high idle? Yes, when the idle does eventually settle, it's higher than normal, but it starts surging up and down shortly after. I also have comp 127500 cams installed. I think i remember reading somewhere that those cams can make the bypass valve work a little different.

I just noticed my jack stands are in storage still as I just moved a few months back. Once i get those, i'll get the car up and start doing visuals underneath. Also, looking into new O2s as suggested.... and re-read everything that was posted. very technical and im trying to take it all in.

Thanks again guys.
1.) I asked this to get a gauge on the inferred condition of the front O2 sensors as these can\do wear out & to see if you had any knowledge of them being changed at some point. I believe the recommended service length of these O2 sensors is somewhere between 60,000-150,000 mi, depending on the MY ('09 calls for 150,000 mi) but they can technically last the car's lifetime depending on the operating conditions (which usually means OEM conditions, OEM tune, OEM components). This is where the Mode 6 PCM component self-check test result data would have been handy as this data would reveal the "health" of the O2 sensors (PCM continuously monitors O2 sensors) along w\ the PCM live STFT, LTFT fueling data from the DTC FF data or a live data log to verify the condition as if the O2 sensors are biased lean (signal hung at low voltages < .450v) the STFT% & LTFT% for the affected bank(s) should have been pegged very high +% numbers as the PCM would have determined lean AFR & kept adding fuel to try to drive the STFT back down. B1S1 could have been stuck lean but started working just before the PCM flagged it but the B1 STFT, LTFT numbers could have shown this condition was present on B1 as well as on B2....the main FT to look at for this P2195, P2197 DTC is the STFT% numbers as these are the actual fueling changes the PCM makes relative to the O2 sensor readouts in real time. Vacuum leaks can cause the O2 sensor to stay at voltages below .450v but usually not for long extended periods of time unless it is a big leak to mask the large amounts of extra fuel being injected (remember there are 4 cylinders per bank so 4 fuel injectors are increasing injected fuel volume, not just 1) but then the engine will usually die so this tends to lean more towards the odds of the O2 sensor(s) failing IMHO but the supporting data would give a clearer picture, especially if the O2 sensor wiring harness check results come back good. This is the importance of having the supporting data to go w\ any DTC code the PCM gives.

2.) I asked this to get an idea of how the car was being used when the issue started. From what you've posted this would also lend more towards the odds of O2 sensor failure from extended service length time but the checks need to be done to verify.

3.) I asked this as if the SC bypass valve is not opening up fully when the throttle is closed (high manifold vacuum) the SC is trying to make boost (increase air flow) while the TPS is at low angle (throttle blades are closed so PCM has cut fuel to match idle based on the TPS angle) so PCM will increase fuel to match air but at the same time will also try to close the throttle to bring the RPM's back to the desired idle speed so you can get a back & forth condition. This bypass valve is vacuum operated so it operates based on the manifold vacuum present based on throttle blade position. If this bypass valve's diaphragm has a leak in it the valve may be trying to close due to losing vacuum. The vacuum signal hose to this bypass valve can also fail which can set up the same idle situation but either way usually does not affect the O2 sensors signal generation so this may not be the culprit but I would test it to ensure that it is operating properly. The issue that some cam grinds can cause w\ a SC bypass valve is the amount of operational idle vacuum present...if the manifold vacuum at idle is too low the SC bypass valve will not open fully causing the SC to create boost at idle so a special bypass valve that can operate at low manifold vacuum is needed for this condition. This most likely isn't the cause of your issue, the O2 sensors themselves are (the PCM is flagging them as an issue) but the symptoms you gave do mimic a leaking\restricted SC bypass valve.
Check the bypass valve at idle to see if it has the linkage fully drawn in (butterfly is full open) or you can test it using a vacuum pump by putting a known vacuum on it then monitor the gauge to see if the vacuum is staying steady or is dropping....if dropping the diaphragm is bad...…...

You do still need to check your engine's induction side for any vacuum leaks as they can influence this condition but this is lending more towards the odds of being O2 sensor related IMHO so make sure the wiring between the PCM & O2 sensors is sound to isolate the issue to the O2 sensor(s).

Sorry for being technical but some aspects just cannot be explained well enough in layman's terms.

Hope this helps.
 

08Bullitt_0067

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I finally got the car up on jack stands. First round of visuals, everything looks OK. I pulled out one of the Upstream O2s and looked up the serial number. 0258005717 shows it to be a bosch sensor. I have a couple of NTK 22060 on order. I don't need the extenders as I have the MAC headers. They are not quite as "long" as other aftermarkets are.

If the new O2s don't resolve the issue, I'll look into doing a smoke test. i've seen a few interesting DIYs i may try or buy a machine. I'll keep double checking the wiring and hoses in the mean time.
 

08Bullitt_0067

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I installed a new set of ntk sensors. The passenger side looks like it was the OEM ford sensor and the driver side was a newer Bosch.

Fired up the car and it was behaving similarly, maybe a little better. New scan data shows both sensors reading similarly around 0.01 with some fluctuations up. Doing more research I found the stft was too high. Numbers will spike up to and hold 66% on both banks. Soo, need a smoke tester...

One thing I didn't do was a kam reset after the new sensors. I'll try that first.

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08Bullitt_0067

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I think I found the issue. I did the induction smoke test and found a threaded hole in the SC manifold on the passenger side. I attached the pic. Based on what pictures i see in the internet, it looks like a threaded plug belongs there. I guess is must have broken loose and vibrated out. So now I'll be trying to figure out the thread size and get a plug for it.

I'm thinking i can start the car and plug the hole with my finger and see if it starts running better. i just need to wait since it's so freaking loud.

20200328_075631.jpg
 

08Bullitt_0067

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Confirmed... plugged the hole with my finger and it starts running back to normal. Thank you guys for the help. It really was a learning experience sharing your knowledge.
 

GlassTop09

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Glad you got it all sorted out.

That smoke tester will be 1 of the best troubleshooting tool investments you've made. I know this 1st hand as I've been there myself. I thought about going the DIY route myself as you did when looking for 1 but in the end I went w\ a manufactured smoke detector that also was equipped w\ an air flow meter, air pressure gauge & it's own self-contained low volume air compressor to also perform EVAP system leak testing in addition to being highly portable so can be used anywhere. This won't be the last time you use it...………………...

The replacement of the mismatched front O2 sensors for a set of the same that are of the same specs will also pay out dividends as well down the road, especially in your case as you're boosted thus counting on those 2 front NB O2 sensors to maintain proper fueling to both sides of engine to maintain good power balancing across the engine as those NTK 22060's match up well to the Spanish Oaks PCM's firmware & the OBDII self check routines it uses.

Question, are you still using the IAT sensor that is built into your MAF sensor to tell the PCM the IAT? If you are then you might consider to get a separate IAT sensor (Ford makes 1, I think AM sells a IAT relocation kit just for this purpose) that should fit in the same hole you found open (a good place for 1 of these as that port is in the intake runner to #4 cyl post intercooler) then rewire it so that the PCM can use the IAT read post intercooler to determine final air density instead of using the IAT read pre intercooler......should help your engine make a little more HP\TQ w\ less detonation & w\ less HP\TQ drop-off across the power curve due to real IAT of air that is actually entering the cylinders (accounts for the Whipple compression heating\intercooler cooling of the incoming air charge).

Just a suggestion since that threaded port isn't being used...………..

Again glad you got it all sorted out.
 

08Bullitt_0067

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Question, are you still using the IAT sensor that is built into your MAF sensor to tell the PCM the IAT? If you are then you might consider to get a separate IAT sensor (Ford makes 1, I think AM sells a IAT relocation kit just for this purpose) that should fit in the same hole you found open (a good place for 1 of these as that port is in the intake runner to #4 cyl post intercooler) then rewire it so that the PCM can use the IAT read post intercooler to determine final air density instead of using the IAT read pre intercooler......should help your engine make a little more HP\TQ w\ less detonation & w\ less HP\TQ drop-off across the power curve due to real IAT of air that is actually entering the cylinders (accounts for the Whipple compression heating\intercooler cooling of the incoming air charge).

Just a suggestion since that threaded port isn't being used...………..

Again glad you got it all sorted out.

Yes I'm using the built in IAT with the MAF. Thanks for the suggestion, I started looking into relocation kits. Would i need a tune adjustment for that?

Also looking into a WB setup. Would one of those replace one of the upstream O2s? Or would I replace one of the down stream O2s (no cats)?

Thanks!
 

nfrizell

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I have the PLX unit. I installed the o2 sensor in the passenger upstream bung. The box that comes with it has a narrow band output to keep your computer mostly happy. The heater circuit remains open unless your tuner can turn it tell your pcm to ignore it. It also has a wideband out for data logging.
5fcceb7ede5debc27b10d8e96105e97f.jpg


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