Tony Conti
Member
I went with a 275 on the front cause they're my street wheels, wouldn't do that for a track setup. Ill be looking to have the square setup like everyone is suggesting.
LIGHT WHEELS?
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I went with a 275 on the front cause they're my street wheels, wouldn't do that for a track setup. Ill be looking to have the square setup like everyone is suggesting.
Horrible advice to a newbie who wants to try HPDE. Typical salesmans'advice. 305s , really?No, there are not 12 pound wheels for Mustangs. That is either a misprint (the link didn't work) or some absurdly small size. Come on guys, you gotta think things through sometimes.
Enkei does make some of the lightest wheels out there, however. This 18.5 pound 18x10.5" wheel was freakishly light. But....
The problems with looking at Enkei are twofold: 1) Their RPF1 wheels have very poor caliper clearance, and it takes a spacer to clear any of the 14" Brembo or bigger brakes (above left). 2) They don't make size that fit these cars. Their 18x10.5" wheel fits the front but pokes like mad in the rear (above right). I posted about all of this here TEN YEARS AGO. They don't have any new fitments that work any better.
Late model Mustangs like the S197 benefit more from WIDER wheels than narrow/smaller than stock. Cornering, accelerating, braking - all do better with more tire. And to support more tire width, you need wheel width. 18x11" with 315/30/18 tires (above) or 19x11" with 305/30/19 are the common choices.
As for realistic weights for these wider wheels, the 18x11" F14 above is 22.8 pounds and the 19x11" F14 is 26.7 pounds. That's pretty common for a flow formed wheel. Pure cast wheels will weigh more (by up to 10 pounds) for 2/3rds the price and forged monoblock wheels will weight 1-3 pounds lighter, per wheel, with equivalent strength (for 2x or 3x the price).
Cheers,
285s on 10 inch wheels is the biggest tire I would advise up front. Again, for a newbie, even that is way more than needed.
OP was concerned with cost. So to start out with doing track days and wanting dedicated track wheels/tires on a budget:
18x9 wheels, i paid $150 per for mine.
275/40/18 tires: NT01, NT05, Falken Azenis 615, R888R would be my choices. Considering the possibility of wet events.
Norm Peterson
corner barstool sitter
A rank newbie who has no idea if he's even going to stick with it might as well show up with whatever wheel and tire setup he has - the better/best setup he's got if he has more than one set to choose from.
A newbie who already thinks he's likely to stick with it would be fine with 285's, and if he's almost convinced that he will stick with it, that's when I'd recommend 11" wide wheels. It's a perfectly track-able setup, entirely streetable with those 285's as long as you pay attention to clearances, and they'll provide room to grow as experience builds and 295's or 305's start looking more desirable.
Norm
A newbie who already thinks he's likely to stick with it would be fine with 285's, and if he's almost convinced that he will stick with it, that's when I'd recommend 11" wide wheels. It's a perfectly track-able setup, entirely streetable with those 285's as long as you pay attention to clearances, and they'll provide room to grow as experience builds and 295's or 305's start looking more desirable.
Norm
Tony Conti
Member
I think I'll be cool running these front and rear so I can have the square setup and they're 24.5 lbs each
https://lmr.com/item/SVE-177903/mustang-sve-r350-wheel-graphite-19x10-05-17
$1,079.96 for four
https://lmr.com/item/SVE-177903/mustang-sve-r350-wheel-graphite-19x10-05-17
$1,079.96 for four
I have a set of 19x10 wheels, and after running them, I find that a 27" tall tire hurt laptimes. While you should not worry about laptimes starting out, I just want you to be aware.
18s and a 26 inch tall tire, IMO is the sweet spot for my car anyway.
A shorter tire will accelerate and brake better, and be easier on your brakes.
18s and a 26 inch tall tire, IMO is the sweet spot for my car anyway.
A shorter tire will accelerate and brake better, and be easier on your brakes.
Tony Conti
Member
I'm also going to have to drop the rear, the front has lowering spring but the back is on stock springs cause the tires were rubbing too much. So I'll need to get the adjustable panhard bar as well.
Agreed on the offset... Cortex Racing has a set of 18x10.5 PF01's that I believe is listed as +45mm offset, and they brag about running 315's on all four corners with slotted struts that you can lean in on the knuckle and then stand up in the strut tower to get extra clearance.
I was just trying to find the realistic S197 mustang sized wheel (18x10-ish) to address Vorshlag's comment about weight. I didn't really look at offset.
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Norm Peterson
corner barstool sitter
Transient handling - turn-in response - and cornering precision improve with increasing wheel width, since the tire is somewhat stiffer when mounted on wider wheels than it is on measuring width or narrower. This isn't just about vertical bump stiffness; lateral and yaw direction stiffnesses also go up and ultimate tire distortion from the shape at rest is reduced. Understanding things like stiffnesses and distortions and behavior over time were a big part of my professional life (retired engineer these days). Tires aren't all that different, generally; they're just way more flexible and way less linear in their behavior than the things I did work with.
It's a completely acceptable fitment by the Tire & Rim Association guideline on tire size vs wheel width. And it's even been used by at least one OEM (Chevy, in 20" for their 5th gen 1LE Camaro rear wheels/tires).
As I said before, 11" gives you room to grow from 285's, without sacrificing anything up front (other than perhaps a few $/wheel). The alternative would be having to buy yet another set of wheels when you do decide to move up to more tire. It kinda sucks to not get more than one set of tires use from a set of wheels, and if you're serious enough to even think of 305's you really need to be thinking 11" unless there's some sort of competition class rule against running that much (or a penalty for doing so).
Conventional appearance preferences have no place in choosing wheel widths vs tire sizes for corner-carving. The problem seems to be that the ponycar/musclecar segments of the car hobby are still mired in the 1960's where sidewalls were "meaty" and bulged out past the wheel flanges, and that became the preferred 'look'. That makes for "soft" transient behavior - which may be OK for the drag race or show car crowds, but as a corner-carver you'd be shortchanging yourself. Even on the track, you're rarely cornering at steady-state long enough to where peak skidpad results could be worth more than transient behavior.
To be fair, there's apt to be a small penalty in terms of ride quality when you go to a max-recommended-wheel-width setup, but even that's not a big deal.
Norm
"Snarky much?" Yes, I'm tired of total noobs pushing bad info on this page, like quoting some absurd 12.1 pound wheel for a Mustang, or that running a 255mm tire on these heavy cars is ever a "good idea".
That's just BAD TECH and BAD ADVICE.
Am I giving "horrible advice" about Mustangs going to a 305mm tire? No. Look at costs over the life of the tire. And wheel costs, too. An 18x11" Apex wheel is not much if anymore an an Apex 18x10" wheel. And a 285/35/18 tire comes in MANY fewer choices than a 305/30/19 - which has dozens of options. There's a reason why so many S197 and S550 Mustangs end up on 19x11" wheels. They fit and tire choices are abundant.
A decade ago I listened to the bad advice on this page and others, and we started with an 18x9" wheel and 265mm tire on our 3600 pound 2011 GT, shown above. There was an autocross class that limited us to that, which we tried for 2 seasons. Driving on the skinny tire and wheel was a HOT MESS - literally, in 30 seconds of an autocross run we could turn the rear tires into boiling goo, then the car was sideways like this for the rest of the run.
It was just as bad on track when driven hard, as shown above on the same 18x9" / 265mm tire. Don't fool yourself - driving a heavy, powerful car on a skinny tire isn't "great instruction", it is maddening and futile. With 430 whp it can be "less than safe", too. I did this nonsense on track for a whole year running NASA TTB and it was SUPER frustrating.
Skinny Tire Syndrome makes you slower than the rest of the pack, so you're getting passed all the time, which is stressful. Your lap times are erratic because the skinny tires are overheating sooner, even driven with modest talent. There is nothing "noble" about hobbling your car like this. There isn't much if any cost savings, when you look at the life of the skinny tire vs the wider tire: skinny tires wear faster than wider tires, on the same car. We've shown that over and over here.
As we moved from a 9" to a 10" to an 11" wide wheel on our S197, and the tire sizes going up from 255 to 275 to 315mm, the Mustang got EASIER to drive, lap times got faster, and tire wear improved. Consistency from lap to lap also got better. THAT IS HOW THIS STUFF WORKS.
I am trying to keep people from making "iterative" wheel purchases. They go from a teenie tiny sad little stock wheel to 18x9" to an 18x10 then to a 19x11"... meanwhile they are getting passed by Miatas on 205mm tires the whole time they are "coming up through the ranks", get pissed off, and some will quit the sport.
Too salesy? That's easy: Don't buy wheels from me. I don't even push our wheel brands anymore, due to unbelievable delays with the manufacturer. I keep pushing people to Apex and other wheels, which I don't sell. And to 305-315mm tires, which I also do not sell. Don't hobble yourself needlessly with a narrow tire and wheel packaging thinking this is some "good thing". It is not.
A 3600 pound Mustang is HEAVY AF and needs more than a 255 or 275 or 285mm tire. Yes, even noobs will have more fun on a 305mm to 315mm tire, because they won't be OVERHEATING skinny tires and be a ROLLING APEX, going slow on skinny meats. Our S197 eventually went to 18x12" wheels 335/345mm tires and... guess what? It was a lot faster, easier to drive, and the tires lasted a lot longer! Our class track records we set on 315s dropped by 2-3 seconds. Wider is better - THAT IS PHYSICS.
Why is that? Tire width and weight go hand in hand. Meaning: the heavier the car the more tire you need to make equivalent grip. Well let's look at the most common size tire used on a Miata: 205mm. Sure, many run 225mm, but lets stick with that 205 tire, as it is the widest you can easily fit on this chassis. The standard, noob track squid in a Miata is on a 205mm tire. We have built and driven lots of Miatas, like this one above (on 15x8 / 225mm tires).
To be the same weight-per-width ratio as a 2400 pound Miata on 205mm tire, a 3600 pound Mustang needs a "307.5" mm tire. That is weird, right?
No, that is just simple physics. This is why we have a big push towards 305/30/19 on a 19x11". It is the widest tire you can fit under stock fenders and readily available in dozens of choices. Or run an 18x11 and 315/30/18 - there just aren't nearly as many tire options in this size.
A 305 or 315mm tire isn't a "big tire", it is barely equivalent to a 205mm tire on a Miata. That's what even noob track drivers in Mustangs should use, yes. Can't afford a 305/30/19? Then go buy a Miata and run 205mm tires. If you are tracking a 3600 pound car with a V8 you either use the biggest tire that fits or you get lapped by Miatas. That's the reality.
Get your heavy pony onto 305-315mm tires and you can at least reach GRIP PARITY with the lighter cars. That's how we make a fat ass 3600 pound Mustang keep up with and even PUSH lighter cars in corners, like above at the 2018 NASA Nationals. The TT5 car weighs a good 1000 pounds less than my S550, and he couldn't believe when this big tank was catching him through the corners. There is no reason why you can't make a heavy car keep up with Miatas and other light cars cornering - you just need as much tire-per-weight as they have!
Ignore my advice, sure. Listen to the scrubs who have never won a race, never set a track record, never done anything of merit. Great. You will be cannon fodder for Miatas on track.
Do I sell things? Sure, and I don't hide that fact. We barely sell wheels anymore, and if we never sell another set, it's no sweat. We're a suspension shop, first and foremost. I say this a lot: TIRES IS ALMOST EVERYTHING when it comes to autocross or track potential. Everything we do on the suspension is to MAXIMIZE THE GRIP FROM THE TIRES. It sucks to sell someone really nice suspension bits then see them hobble the car with teenie tiny tires. Don't be that guy.
Cheers,
That's just BAD TECH and BAD ADVICE.
Am I giving "horrible advice" about Mustangs going to a 305mm tire? No. Look at costs over the life of the tire. And wheel costs, too. An 18x11" Apex wheel is not much if anymore an an Apex 18x10" wheel. And a 285/35/18 tire comes in MANY fewer choices than a 305/30/19 - which has dozens of options. There's a reason why so many S197 and S550 Mustangs end up on 19x11" wheels. They fit and tire choices are abundant.
A decade ago I listened to the bad advice on this page and others, and we started with an 18x9" wheel and 265mm tire on our 3600 pound 2011 GT, shown above. There was an autocross class that limited us to that, which we tried for 2 seasons. Driving on the skinny tire and wheel was a HOT MESS - literally, in 30 seconds of an autocross run we could turn the rear tires into boiling goo, then the car was sideways like this for the rest of the run.
It was just as bad on track when driven hard, as shown above on the same 18x9" / 265mm tire. Don't fool yourself - driving a heavy, powerful car on a skinny tire isn't "great instruction", it is maddening and futile. With 430 whp it can be "less than safe", too. I did this nonsense on track for a whole year running NASA TTB and it was SUPER frustrating.
Skinny Tire Syndrome makes you slower than the rest of the pack, so you're getting passed all the time, which is stressful. Your lap times are erratic because the skinny tires are overheating sooner, even driven with modest talent. There is nothing "noble" about hobbling your car like this. There isn't much if any cost savings, when you look at the life of the skinny tire vs the wider tire: skinny tires wear faster than wider tires, on the same car. We've shown that over and over here.
As we moved from a 9" to a 10" to an 11" wide wheel on our S197, and the tire sizes going up from 255 to 275 to 315mm, the Mustang got EASIER to drive, lap times got faster, and tire wear improved. Consistency from lap to lap also got better. THAT IS HOW THIS STUFF WORKS.
I am trying to keep people from making "iterative" wheel purchases. They go from a teenie tiny sad little stock wheel to 18x9" to an 18x10 then to a 19x11"... meanwhile they are getting passed by Miatas on 205mm tires the whole time they are "coming up through the ranks", get pissed off, and some will quit the sport.
Too salesy? That's easy: Don't buy wheels from me. I don't even push our wheel brands anymore, due to unbelievable delays with the manufacturer. I keep pushing people to Apex and other wheels, which I don't sell. And to 305-315mm tires, which I also do not sell. Don't hobble yourself needlessly with a narrow tire and wheel packaging thinking this is some "good thing". It is not.
A 3600 pound Mustang is HEAVY AF and needs more than a 255 or 275 or 285mm tire. Yes, even noobs will have more fun on a 305mm to 315mm tire, because they won't be OVERHEATING skinny tires and be a ROLLING APEX, going slow on skinny meats. Our S197 eventually went to 18x12" wheels 335/345mm tires and... guess what? It was a lot faster, easier to drive, and the tires lasted a lot longer! Our class track records we set on 315s dropped by 2-3 seconds. Wider is better - THAT IS PHYSICS.
Why is that? Tire width and weight go hand in hand. Meaning: the heavier the car the more tire you need to make equivalent grip. Well let's look at the most common size tire used on a Miata: 205mm. Sure, many run 225mm, but lets stick with that 205 tire, as it is the widest you can easily fit on this chassis. The standard, noob track squid in a Miata is on a 205mm tire. We have built and driven lots of Miatas, like this one above (on 15x8 / 225mm tires).
To be the same weight-per-width ratio as a 2400 pound Miata on 205mm tire, a 3600 pound Mustang needs a "307.5" mm tire. That is weird, right?
No, that is just simple physics. This is why we have a big push towards 305/30/19 on a 19x11". It is the widest tire you can fit under stock fenders and readily available in dozens of choices. Or run an 18x11 and 315/30/18 - there just aren't nearly as many tire options in this size.
A 305 or 315mm tire isn't a "big tire", it is barely equivalent to a 205mm tire on a Miata. That's what even noob track drivers in Mustangs should use, yes. Can't afford a 305/30/19? Then go buy a Miata and run 205mm tires. If you are tracking a 3600 pound car with a V8 you either use the biggest tire that fits or you get lapped by Miatas. That's the reality.
Get your heavy pony onto 305-315mm tires and you can at least reach GRIP PARITY with the lighter cars. That's how we make a fat ass 3600 pound Mustang keep up with and even PUSH lighter cars in corners, like above at the 2018 NASA Nationals. The TT5 car weighs a good 1000 pounds less than my S550, and he couldn't believe when this big tank was catching him through the corners. There is no reason why you can't make a heavy car keep up with Miatas and other light cars cornering - you just need as much tire-per-weight as they have!
Ignore my advice, sure. Listen to the scrubs who have never won a race, never set a track record, never done anything of merit. Great. You will be cannon fodder for Miatas on track.
Do I sell things? Sure, and I don't hide that fact. We barely sell wheels anymore, and if we never sell another set, it's no sweat. We're a suspension shop, first and foremost. I say this a lot: TIRES IS ALMOST EVERYTHING when it comes to autocross or track potential. Everything we do on the suspension is to MAXIMIZE THE GRIP FROM THE TIRES. It sucks to sell someone really nice suspension bits then see them hobble the car with teenie tiny tires. Don't be that guy.
Cheers,
Norm Peterson
corner barstool sitter
Terry - 285 tires would certainly be bad advice for anybody who knows he's getting into time trials or other timed competition. That's not the case with this thread's OP. Not yet, anyway.
My 285's on 11's suggestion wasn't really about the tires - it was mainly about considering 11" wide wheels from the get-go and not absolutely having to source 305's right away. Arguably, 285's would be a little better in the rain, which you might be more likely to encounter in your street driving.
There's a guy who works at the OE level who has access to information and guidelines that the rest of us don't, and who has mentioned that grip as a function of tire width is down in the ^0.15-ish range, and cornering stiffness is a ^0.3-ish function of width. Means you should only expect 305's to be 1% - 2% better than 285's, all else held constant. Sounds like an easy win vs upper midpack at TT, but hardly distinguishable from the lap time scatter for a novice.
I've done weight to tire width comparisons too. The question then becomes . . . do you use nominal tire section size, advertised tire section size, actual section size as mounted on a specific width wheel, measured tread width, or some measure that considers tread voids? A 285/35 MPSS measures about 300mm on an 11" wide wheel, only 5mm shy of a nominal 305/xx tire. Just sayin . . .
Norm
My 285's on 11's suggestion wasn't really about the tires - it was mainly about considering 11" wide wheels from the get-go and not absolutely having to source 305's right away. Arguably, 285's would be a little better in the rain, which you might be more likely to encounter in your street driving.
There's a guy who works at the OE level who has access to information and guidelines that the rest of us don't, and who has mentioned that grip as a function of tire width is down in the ^0.15-ish range, and cornering stiffness is a ^0.3-ish function of width. Means you should only expect 305's to be 1% - 2% better than 285's, all else held constant. Sounds like an easy win vs upper midpack at TT, but hardly distinguishable from the lap time scatter for a novice.
I've done weight to tire width comparisons too. The question then becomes . . . do you use nominal tire section size, advertised tire section size, actual section size as mounted on a specific width wheel, measured tread width, or some measure that considers tread voids? A 285/35 MPSS measures about 300mm on an 11" wide wheel, only 5mm shy of a nominal 305/xx tire. Just sayin . . .
Norm
Norm you are just wrong. Just because you are/were an engr doesn't mean you know everything about everything. You and Grant are both ridiculously annoying to those of us that actually do know cars, tires, suspensions and racing. You take a little bit of knowledge and extrapolate that way past anything that you actually know about and then argue to no end that you are right.
I was a tire test engr for 2 decades including being a test driver, running the force and moment machine, rolling resistance, traction, vehicle data acq, correlations between lab measurements and on track lap times and subjective comments plus a lot more. So let me just say again that you are wrong and your structural steel knowledge does not apply to the vastly non-linear rubber and string game that are tires.
Just because you stretch your 285s to 300 does not make them equal to a 300. You are not getting better handling sidewalls because you have put them under unneeded stress even before you take a corner. If you were to drive in a proper blind test, at your level of driving, you could not accurately tell a 285 10" vs a 285 11". However, a real tire test driver would not only feel the difference he would pick the 10" wheel as being the best handling setup, best on center feel, best lateral grip, best forward bite, best braking stability and more including transient behavior. You are simply fooling yourself and giving bad advice both here and at TMO just like Terry said. Simply put, a 285 on an 11" wheel is a waste of a good wheel.
I can't compete with Terry's pics but I'll add some of my own. Here's my tire stack, taller than the car....
This past Friday night at the high speed autox with my daughter......
3 for 3 in 2020. 4 for 6 in 2019 (other 2 were seconds), 2 more wins in 2018....
The stuff I say isn't theoretical. It isn't armchair racing. It isn't regurgitating stuff I read online. It's actual first hand, real world, hard earned, 30+ years of on the race track, no BS, knowledge.
I was a tire test engr for 2 decades including being a test driver, running the force and moment machine, rolling resistance, traction, vehicle data acq, correlations between lab measurements and on track lap times and subjective comments plus a lot more. So let me just say again that you are wrong and your structural steel knowledge does not apply to the vastly non-linear rubber and string game that are tires.
Just because you stretch your 285s to 300 does not make them equal to a 300. You are not getting better handling sidewalls because you have put them under unneeded stress even before you take a corner. If you were to drive in a proper blind test, at your level of driving, you could not accurately tell a 285 10" vs a 285 11". However, a real tire test driver would not only feel the difference he would pick the 10" wheel as being the best handling setup, best on center feel, best lateral grip, best forward bite, best braking stability and more including transient behavior. You are simply fooling yourself and giving bad advice both here and at TMO just like Terry said. Simply put, a 285 on an 11" wheel is a waste of a good wheel.
I can't compete with Terry's pics but I'll add some of my own. Here's my tire stack, taller than the car....
This past Friday night at the high speed autox with my daughter......
3 for 3 in 2020. 4 for 6 in 2019 (other 2 were seconds), 2 more wins in 2018....
The stuff I say isn't theoretical. It isn't armchair racing. It isn't regurgitating stuff I read online. It's actual first hand, real world, hard earned, 30+ years of on the race track, no BS, knowledge.
JJ427R
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Kenny Brown, who also has over 40 years racing experience and building championship winning race cars, recently said he believes 285/35/18 on all 4 corners is the best track setup for the S197 mustangs, especially for HPDE driving.
I really wish some of the guys on here would quit comparing racing and autocross to a HPDE track day. They are not the same thing. First off HPDE days are non competitive, no trophy's given, your not competing with anyone but yourself! Many guys who do HPDE days, including myself, drive their cars to the track. It would not be very smart for me to put 305 slicks on my car to drive it 300 miles from MN to Road America and back home.
Nor would it be smart to invest that kind of money in wheels and tires for say 2-6 track days a year. I somewhat agree with Norm in the OP would be better of starting with something closer to stock.
That is why I have stuck with the 20" Roush wheels that came on my 2010, and the 19" wheels on my 2018. I run a 275/35/20 on all 4 corners on my Roush, currently running Firestone Indy 500's, am I the fastest guy on track no, but I am one of the fastest in my run group, I'm still having a great time, I run laps under 3:00 in a street car at Road America, and it's costing me a hell of a lot less money!!!
I really wish some of the guys on here would quit comparing racing and autocross to a HPDE track day. They are not the same thing. First off HPDE days are non competitive, no trophy's given, your not competing with anyone but yourself! Many guys who do HPDE days, including myself, drive their cars to the track. It would not be very smart for me to put 305 slicks on my car to drive it 300 miles from MN to Road America and back home.
Nor would it be smart to invest that kind of money in wheels and tires for say 2-6 track days a year. I somewhat agree with Norm in the OP would be better of starting with something closer to stock.
That is why I have stuck with the 20" Roush wheels that came on my 2010, and the 19" wheels on my 2018. I run a 275/35/20 on all 4 corners on my Roush, currently running Firestone Indy 500's, am I the fastest guy on track no, but I am one of the fastest in my run group, I'm still having a great time, I run laps under 3:00 in a street car at Road America, and it's costing me a hell of a lot less money!!!
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How do you not understand marketing and salesmanship? KB sells overpriced suspension stuff, not wheels. He doesn't want you spending money on wheels or buying from other vendors. He wants all your money. Get it??
Plus he never built any champ car ever. How many times must we go over this? He sells parts. He is not a 40 year race veteran. There is a big difference
Nobody said you needed slicks. Plus I thought you said MT Street Comps were the hot shit. Now 500's are the "it" tire????
Plus he never built any champ car ever. How many times must we go over this? He sells parts. He is not a 40 year race veteran. There is a big difference
Nobody said you needed slicks. Plus I thought you said MT Street Comps were the hot shit. Now 500's are the "it" tire????
JJ427R
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Actually KB does sell wheels, he is an APEX and Forgeline dealer. And what guy in business does not want your money? I bet Terry Fair would take all you want to give him!
As far as him not building championship winning cars, how about him and his late son Paul Brown winning the 2011 Pirelli GTS Drivers Championship. How about his wins with Steve Saleen? The list goes on back to Trans Am days. You better go do some more research.
The MT are good tires as well, used them the last several years with no issues. I'm just trying the Firestone for the first time per others recommendations. And I never said anywhere they were the "it" tire. Also I have the Michelin's on my 2018.
My Original tires were Dunlop Sportmaxx, I loved those as they were really quiet, great handling and traction, but they are up there in price with the Michelin's.
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Norm Peterson
corner barstool sitter
Trust me, I understand that tires don't behave in linear fashion. I understand nonlinear behaviors - and behaviors on a time-history basis - better than you think, so please stop assuming that I'm applying principles of static steel construction here.
No, but it would make them closer to a 305 than the difference between 285 and 305 otherwise suggests. All else constant, of course.
Actually, I think I might be able to.
If the only thing you're doing with those 11s is racing, that's one thing.
But other situations exist. You might have to mix a good bit of much street driving in with the track driving, or maybe your initial tire choice didn't come in 305s, or you just might be willing to develop your track driving skills a little longer with less tire.
For any of those circumstances I just don't see any reason for not buying more wheel than you need now when it gives you room to grow later.
But feel free to ignore that suggestion if you don't mind buying 10s for a set of 285s now, and then having to buy 11s when you move up to 305s. Not everybody is sponsored or as willing to basically throw away a set of wheels every time they move up a couple of tire sizes.
What I post does have some actual observations behind them. It's not just from books and SAE papers. I do notice things. But feel free to post comparative curves of various aspects of handling for tires mounted on measuring vs T&RA max width wheels.
I don't do as many pictures as Terry does either. MPSS tires. OE springs.
Norm
I have 10" wheels with 285s.
It is the perfect match as far as wheels/tires go.
It is also a very tight fit up front, but it does fit without issues.
Im having a hard time believing a 305 on 11" wheel fits up front.
And no first time HPDE driver will be melting "small" tires. Instructors hold you back so you can get used to driving at higher speeds and make sure you are not going to hurt otbers or yourself. The only thing a newbie should do to his car before the first time on track is a set of brake pads.
But what do I know, since I dont race. I only have 20 years and something like 10000+ track miles under my belt, and I am faster than spec miatas.
And with that said, Im out of this discussion.
It is the perfect match as far as wheels/tires go.
It is also a very tight fit up front, but it does fit without issues.
Im having a hard time believing a 305 on 11" wheel fits up front.
And no first time HPDE driver will be melting "small" tires. Instructors hold you back so you can get used to driving at higher speeds and make sure you are not going to hurt otbers or yourself. The only thing a newbie should do to his car before the first time on track is a set of brake pads.
But what do I know, since I dont race. I only have 20 years and something like 10000+ track miles under my belt, and I am faster than spec miatas.
And with that said, Im out of this discussion.
JJ427R
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That is exactly what I was just about to post I forgot. The OP would be best to put the first money into brakes/rotors. High temp brake fluid such as Motul RBF600, at least 4 piston calipers up front (I melted seals on my stock 2 pistons so upgraded to StopTech), stainless brake lines, and some good pads. Kenny Brown recommends slotted rotors as they clear the brake debris away better.
Norm Peterson
corner barstool sitter
You can probably hold the amount of 'poke' down to only a few mm more than this. That's with something like -1.9° to maybe -2.0° camber.
Even with 26" tall 305s, it's probably not going to tolerate much lowering, though.
I'm using all of the strut side room, just short of getting a rub. Might want an extra mm or two with 305s.
Agreed.
Norm
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It is a good start, and what many of us used 10 years ago when 10" wide wheels first became available for the S197.
We had the first commercially available run of 18x10" wheels for the S197 chassis in 2011 with D-Force wheels. We sold hundreds of sets of these before moving to 18x11" and wider...
Sorry, the 10" wide wheel / 285mm tire is not that "tight" up front, as you can see below. There is plenty of room to the strut inboard and over an inch of room outboard up front.
18x10" is as wide as you can go AND use the same offset front and rear AND fit under stock fenders. These pictures are from 2011.
When we ran this car in an Optima event in 2012 we went to a 295/35/18 on the same 18x10" wheels. That's pushing the limits of what I could consider "the widest" tire I would recommend on a 10" wide wheel.
But unlike Norms experiences, they worked well enough (for a Nitto). This was back before Optima had classes so we had to run against all the cars - from AWD Evos to Corvettes to tubed framed kit cars. And even with the "less than perfect" stretch of a 295mm tire on a 10" wide wheel, we won the autocross event outright, and had a strong finish on the road course, too.
I get what Norm is trying to push - stretching a tire on a wider wheel can ekk out a little more grip, flatten the contact patch a bit better. Coming from an autocross background, that's an old trick we often used.
I have used that "stretch" trick in tire width limited NASA ST/TT classes, also. In the NASA TTD car above we ran a 10" wide wheel using a 245mm Hooiser - because we were limited to a 245mm tire. Of course we ran the absolute most bonkers cheater "245" Hoosier made, which had 10.2" of section width. So yes, exploit rules loopholes whenever you can - and if the class limits tire width but NOT wheel width, go for it. We usually will push to the max recommended wheel range for a given tire, and sometimes even 1/2" wider.
But if your racing class allows unlimited tire width, you need to push to get that. We had an 18x12" wheel setup using 315mm tires for a season and did well, but the next 2 seasons we used those same wheels with a 335mm front and 345mm rear tire and reset all of our track records by *seconds*,
This isn't theoretical, we have done this on many many cars over decades, with lots of lap time data and wins to show for it. Wider tire always is faster. ALWAYS. But hey, if you wanna stay slower, stick with Skinny Tire Syndrome. I'm not going to stop you.
Well, I guess if you lived under a rock and never went to track events you might not see these things? But we spec'd and built the first 18x11" wheels that fit under stock fenders of an S197 in 2012. Many many hundreds of sets sold of these since. We even ran 18x12's in the back, but there were some compromises to do that, and we almost never sold wheels this way.
There were no tricks up front - just running enough camber (we didn't even cut our strut towers) and adjusting the strut-to-spindle adjustment just right, to keep the wheel as close to the strut without rubbing as possible.
18x11" and 315mm used to be our "go to" package, then the 315/30/18 tire options dried up and the 305/30/19 tire options exploded - so we went to 19x11" wheels for S197 and S550 predominantly.
As for Kenny Brown supposedly saying he "believes 285/35/18 on all 4 corners is the best track setup for the S197 mustangs, especially for HPDE driving" that is just absurd. HPDE driving is just that - just driving. You can believe this snake oil salesman - who will sell you every doo-dad and magic brace you never needed - or you can look at results.
If LAP TIMES matter to you, then wider wheels and tires are PROVEN to be better, even in HPDE. The 19x11" wheel and 305mm tire package (above left) was notably faster on our customers S197, who had 18x10" wheels and 285mm tires before (above right). He logged every lap time and had data to prove this, not just "feelings".
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