It goes in like those anti fouler extensions but it has an an actual catalytic substrate in it between the exhaust and sensor. I had to use a couple of 90* extensions because of where they are located.
Tunes, Mods, and Smogging
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It goes in like those anti fouler extensions but it has an an actual catalytic substrate in it between the exhaust and sensor. I had to use a couple of 90* extensions because of where they are located.
I stalling LTs does not require turning off O2 sensors. Infact, a coyote does not even require any changes in the tune for LTs.
Cat delete needs rear O2s disabled. (There is actually a better way to handle that in the tune)
No vendor will disable rear O2s since the EPA went after SCT.
On my 2010 with the 4.6, VMP warned me abt the pair of fault codes that may kick in. Justin said it's a timing issue, with the rear O2 sensors now being a greater distance from the eng....after the LT install. Easy fix.....just shut off rear sensors in software. I left mine turned on, so I can read cat temps with my aeroforce gauges. Dunno how accurate the readings are, both both hi-flow cats read identical. IF one cat clogged up for whatever reason, it's temp would increase a bunch.
Well, All 4 sensors get moved a bit downstream w/LTs and it is the upstreams that matter for drivability. This is where the transport delay table needs to be tweaked. No such tables for the rear/downstream O2s.
Forty61
forum member
My ‘08 has LT’s and catless X pipe, still passes OBD inspection every year.
For now.......
DieHarder
Senior Member
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Maybe I'm oversimplifying but if my car passes the state standards for CO/particulates either thru OBDII or tailpipe testing why the goat rope?
Not goat roping, whatever that is.
OBD2 is a scan and no tailpipe testing is done. So with emission components disabled, it is just a matter of time before your state catches on if they plug in to scan.
If there is only tailpipe test, than you will be able to keep passing.
It took a while before some states realized OBD tests were missing on cars. All they cared before was all available monitors completed, you passed. Than they realized most cars had 8 monitors and not 5. Those with 5(or less than 8) were getting flagged/failed. Kinda the point of this thread, the EPA clamping down on the "delete" crowd.
Ps: your catless x pipe sbould be failing the visual inspection.
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Wingrider
GT500 track guy
I also have one of these for my Whipple kit on my GT500. The code gets put in and that is it.My Ford Racing Performance Pro-Cal tune came with an CARB sticker that includes an EO (executive order) number. Does that mean my tune will be in the legal database when I get my car inspected?
Keep pics of this and a wider shot of maybe this and the license plate in the same shot. These (cheap) stickers fade and disappear over time and you'd be sunk if it's not here for your smog records.
The shop forgot to put this sticker on my fender well and my smog guy has been cool about just showing it to him in hand.
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06 T-RED S/C GT
forum member
Kooks is not screwing us by labeling the "Green Cats" as " for off-road use only" Just as you brought up, they're protecting themselves from any potential legality issues from the EPA if they are used on vehicles driven on Federal/State public highways-roads. Being that Kooks is neither the manufacturer nor owns the original EPA certification permit, but rather G-Sport who's the actual manufacturer of the GESI cats which is based outside of the U.S in Ontario, Canada and IIRC, Canada doesn't have EPA clean air and CARB regulation acts as we have here in the U.S. Therefore, perhaps the G-Sport cats may not have any issues when it comes to passing emissions inspection in Canada, however, there's a very strong possibility they may have issues passing OBDII emissions scan inspection in the U.S. Anyhow, that's my take on it
IIRC, I believe Whipple also offers CARB complaint systems, as they require having the PCM sent to their facilities to be re-flashed with their calibration. But anyhow, the EPA is mostly concerned with those who disable, remove or defeat any portion of the "OEM" emissions/catalyst system. As long as the system remains in place and is not tampered with in anyway? Your vehicle is compliant with the EPA clean air act. Therefore, I wouldn't be too concerned as to whether your choice of SC is CARB compliant or not, unless of course your vehicle is registered in the communist state of California lol.
Although LTs don't require turning off rear 02 sensors on the 11-current Coyote 5.0, they do however require turned off on the older 2005-10 3v cars to prevent the check engine light from coming on. Unfortunately, the 2005-10 3 valves also require tune revision changes in order to run LT's as well. Only way of getting around it on the 3 valve 4.6 cars is to install the Big Daddies mini cat 02 extension plugs which 07 Boss has and hope they'll pass OBDII emissions scan
I was under the impression that only the tuning vendor was able to turn off the rear 02 sensors in the tune/software? If the end user is somehow able to turn off the rear 02's in the user adjustability menu in the SCT X3-X4, I'm obviously not aware of it
Perhaps for the 2011-current Coyote 5.0, but the tables for the rear/downstream 02's are in fact factors when it comes to the older 2005-10 4.6L 3 valves.
My guess, is your tune has some of it's catalyst monitors turned off/disabled which most tuning vendors have since discontinued due from the EPA crackdown. I also don't quite understand how your "08" is able to pass visual inspection with no cats? Because it sure wouldn't pass visual inspection here in the Pittsburgh, PA region lol.
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GlassTop09
Senior Member
Here is provided below a .pdf of an independent summary on catalyst converter design, operation and (most important for folks in this forum) the items to take into consideration w\ cats for any specific special needs....including high HP applications, turbocharged applications (same principle for any FI applications) & what constitutes an OBDII-compliant cat that is specifically designed to work w\ modern computer controlled fuel injected applications that use the ECU to perform OBDII cat monitoring for EPA compliance.
1st thing to say here.....every catalyst converter made & sold for vehicle use on US Federal\State roads\hiways is required by law to conform to the EPA Clean Air Act for HC, CO & NOx emissions reductions stds....no exceptions. The EPA legal reduction std for HC & CO....70%-90% & for NOx....60%. So what\why the issue w\ using any cat on our 1996-current Stangs if all cats made for vehicles are EPA legal as far as reduction goes?
I'm gonna focus on the topic of "what is a typical OBDII-compliant cat design look like" to help those interested as this is the critical issue for most folks who traffic this BBS.
This is a drawing of what is a typical TWC or "3 way" OBDII-compliant cat internal design that is designed to work w\ the OBDII monitoring programming in the PCM for our cars. The most visual component that will designate this cat design w\o any documentation (but some documentation is desired to have on hand for backup) is the placement of the rear O2 sensor bung....it's usually mounted in the middle of the cat housing thus the term "mid bed". Due to the placement of this rear O2 sensor bung & the knowledge of how each brick is designed to process (the .pdf provided below) it is very easy to determine if\when this cat design is working\failing using OBDII monitoring thru a PCM alone....the 1st brick w\ the cerium in it is the key component necessary for proper OBDII monitoring to take place w\ a PCM as this brick is there to provide free O2 flow (metering) release control into the 2nd HC\CO brick due to the oscillations of the pre-cat O2 sensor operation, the DFCO operation & any small variations in STFT from outside sources (such as small vacuum leaks, EVAP operations, etc) & allow the 3rd NOx brick to properly do it's reduction. If that 1st brick fails or isn't present the cat will fail the OBDII monitoring regardless of whether the rest of the cat has actually physically failed (which is the usual result of this brick failure) or not....this is a fact & is tested\proven to be far more accurate and\or reliable than any 5-gas sniffer analyzer (why they aren't required\used for vehicle emissions certifications anymore) to determine vehicle emissions passage\failure. This can come as a direct fit or a universal design, w\ or w\o shielding installed (to help control heat loss from the cat) or in a SS or spun metal housing w\ the substrates being usually made of ceramic but there are a few that use metal substrates (more costly). Most all OEM designs will be configured like this drawing & use ceramic substrates......cost being the main reason.
This is a drawing of the alternate TWC or "3 way" OBDII-compliant cat internal design that has the rear O2 sensor bung placed in the exhaust piping post-cat. This cat design is much harder to visually distinguish w\o some type of documentation (whether by web site, letterhead, or physical certification etched on the cat itself) but operates in the same manner as #1 but could also cause a potential false failure due to the simple process of NOx (NOx reduction produces N2 & free O2) so the 1st & 2nd substrate bricks are usually double loaded to ensure process integrity thruout & longevity. Rest is the same as #1 for OBDII monitoring purposes. This design is usually the most costly of the bunch due to the amount of double loading but is also the 1 that most aftermarket performance cat makers use due to it's compactness so is most always a universal design & is most always cased within a SS or spun metal casing & can use either ceramic or metal substrates but the high output cats are always using metal substrates for the higher flow capacities & higher heat tolerances that suit FI applications. A few of these are offered in some aftermarket packaged midpipe products but are usually sold as a standalone item.
This is a typical 2 way or non-OBDII compliant cat internal design that has the rear O2 sensor bung placed in the exhaust piping post cat as is shown in #2 cat above. This cat design is also very hard\impossible to distinguish from #1 or #2 cat visually & will usually be devoid of any type of documentation (documentation is a necessity for any aftermarket cat #1 or #2 design that is OBDII-compliant for proof of "certified condition" to distinguish it from this cat design due to being visually identical in shape). This design is the old 1st gen cat design from pre-OBDII (none thru OBDI period) but is still a widely used cat in the racing world due to it's compactness & cheaper costs to satisfy most any emissions requirements at some sanctioned race tracks (yes, some tracks do have an emissions requirement...much more common overseas) so is mainly used in the mainstream aftermarket catted midpipe designs that are being sold....."for off road use only"...familiar now? This cat design will most always fail an OBDII monitoring PCM in our cars due to the missing 1st cerium brick alone....IOW's it's NOT DESIGNED TO OPERATE under OBDII monitoring.....unless it is oversized sufficiently to overcome the operational designs of the sequential fuel injection\engine displacement (along w\ VE determines max airflow\poundage output) & any outside free O2 entry (EVAP) along w\ any tuning improvements\enhancements but if that is achieved then the rear O2 sensors usually cannot be properly tested by the PCM for Mode 5 functionality as the PCM will not be able to adequately force enough free O2 thru the cat substrates to reach the post-cat O2 sensor w\o actually shutting the fuel injectors off which will effectively shut the engine down so simply aren't for legal EPA use on Federal\State public roads\hiways usage under the Clean Air Act.....
So now you have it. This is why you can't just purchase any old cat, install it on our Stangs & think\expect you should pass an OBDII emissions certification thru the PCM......the only way you're going to really know (the smog testers, city\county\State & Fed EPA as well) for sure which is the correct version installed\being used is thru some type of official documentation, whether written & provided w\ the product, posted on the cat manuf web site or etched on the cat itself for identification purposes.....which is why the Fed EPA developed the EPA\CARB legal , OBDII-compliant certification process to distinguish the proper cats for public modern, computer controlled, fuel injected vehicle usage from the EPA legal but non-OBDII compliant ones in the 1st place.
The rest is up to you.
Hope this helps anyone who is interested for future reference.
1st thing to say here.....every catalyst converter made & sold for vehicle use on US Federal\State roads\hiways is required by law to conform to the EPA Clean Air Act for HC, CO & NOx emissions reductions stds....no exceptions. The EPA legal reduction std for HC & CO....70%-90% & for NOx....60%. So what\why the issue w\ using any cat on our 1996-current Stangs if all cats made for vehicles are EPA legal as far as reduction goes?
I'm gonna focus on the topic of "what is a typical OBDII-compliant cat design look like" to help those interested as this is the critical issue for most folks who traffic this BBS.
This is a drawing of what is a typical TWC or "3 way" OBDII-compliant cat internal design that is designed to work w\ the OBDII monitoring programming in the PCM for our cars. The most visual component that will designate this cat design w\o any documentation (but some documentation is desired to have on hand for backup) is the placement of the rear O2 sensor bung....it's usually mounted in the middle of the cat housing thus the term "mid bed". Due to the placement of this rear O2 sensor bung & the knowledge of how each brick is designed to process (the .pdf provided below) it is very easy to determine if\when this cat design is working\failing using OBDII monitoring thru a PCM alone....the 1st brick w\ the cerium in it is the key component necessary for proper OBDII monitoring to take place w\ a PCM as this brick is there to provide free O2 flow (metering) release control into the 2nd HC\CO brick due to the oscillations of the pre-cat O2 sensor operation, the DFCO operation & any small variations in STFT from outside sources (such as small vacuum leaks, EVAP operations, etc) & allow the 3rd NOx brick to properly do it's reduction. If that 1st brick fails or isn't present the cat will fail the OBDII monitoring regardless of whether the rest of the cat has actually physically failed (which is the usual result of this brick failure) or not....this is a fact & is tested\proven to be far more accurate and\or reliable than any 5-gas sniffer analyzer (why they aren't required\used for vehicle emissions certifications anymore) to determine vehicle emissions passage\failure. This can come as a direct fit or a universal design, w\ or w\o shielding installed (to help control heat loss from the cat) or in a SS or spun metal housing w\ the substrates being usually made of ceramic but there are a few that use metal substrates (more costly). Most all OEM designs will be configured like this drawing & use ceramic substrates......cost being the main reason.
This is a drawing of the alternate TWC or "3 way" OBDII-compliant cat internal design that has the rear O2 sensor bung placed in the exhaust piping post-cat. This cat design is much harder to visually distinguish w\o some type of documentation (whether by web site, letterhead, or physical certification etched on the cat itself) but operates in the same manner as #1 but could also cause a potential false failure due to the simple process of NOx (NOx reduction produces N2 & free O2) so the 1st & 2nd substrate bricks are usually double loaded to ensure process integrity thruout & longevity. Rest is the same as #1 for OBDII monitoring purposes. This design is usually the most costly of the bunch due to the amount of double loading but is also the 1 that most aftermarket performance cat makers use due to it's compactness so is most always a universal design & is most always cased within a SS or spun metal casing & can use either ceramic or metal substrates but the high output cats are always using metal substrates for the higher flow capacities & higher heat tolerances that suit FI applications. A few of these are offered in some aftermarket packaged midpipe products but are usually sold as a standalone item.
This is a typical 2 way or non-OBDII compliant cat internal design that has the rear O2 sensor bung placed in the exhaust piping post cat as is shown in #2 cat above. This cat design is also very hard\impossible to distinguish from #1 or #2 cat visually & will usually be devoid of any type of documentation (documentation is a necessity for any aftermarket cat #1 or #2 design that is OBDII-compliant for proof of "certified condition" to distinguish it from this cat design due to being visually identical in shape). This design is the old 1st gen cat design from pre-OBDII (none thru OBDI period) but is still a widely used cat in the racing world due to it's compactness & cheaper costs to satisfy most any emissions requirements at some sanctioned race tracks (yes, some tracks do have an emissions requirement...much more common overseas) so is mainly used in the mainstream aftermarket catted midpipe designs that are being sold....."for off road use only"...familiar now? This cat design will most always fail an OBDII monitoring PCM in our cars due to the missing 1st cerium brick alone....IOW's it's NOT DESIGNED TO OPERATE under OBDII monitoring.....unless it is oversized sufficiently to overcome the operational designs of the sequential fuel injection\engine displacement (along w\ VE determines max airflow\poundage output) & any outside free O2 entry (EVAP) along w\ any tuning improvements\enhancements but if that is achieved then the rear O2 sensors usually cannot be properly tested by the PCM for Mode 5 functionality as the PCM will not be able to adequately force enough free O2 thru the cat substrates to reach the post-cat O2 sensor w\o actually shutting the fuel injectors off which will effectively shut the engine down so simply aren't for legal EPA use on Federal\State public roads\hiways usage under the Clean Air Act.....
So now you have it. This is why you can't just purchase any old cat, install it on our Stangs & think\expect you should pass an OBDII emissions certification thru the PCM......the only way you're going to really know (the smog testers, city\county\State & Fed EPA as well) for sure which is the correct version installed\being used is thru some type of official documentation, whether written & provided w\ the product, posted on the cat manuf web site or etched on the cat itself for identification purposes.....which is why the Fed EPA developed the EPA\CARB legal , OBDII-compliant certification process to distinguish the proper cats for public modern, computer controlled, fuel injected vehicle usage from the EPA legal but non-OBDII compliant ones in the 1st place.
The rest is up to you.
Hope this helps anyone who is interested for future reference.
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Wingrider
GT500 track guy
This has been a great read and a lot of good information.
All of this is why (as a resident of *that* state) I purchased the Ford Racing/Whipple SC kit from Ford and the CARB / 50 compliant Shorty Headers from JBA when I moved up. Some of the roll your own systems from folks like Lethal were looking awesome, but with no CARB I didn't want to have to go through huge drama swapping LTs or worse every 2 years. My set up with a few other little things works out to about 700 RWHP and has passed twice with the supplied Ford Racing tune. After my next smog in a couple months I *do* plan on getting another Lund tune and I have 1050x injectors. I'm willing to do a reflash and swap injectors every 2 years but not more than that. If this all gets worse, I'll just reg it out of the county and then is game on. It's pretty much track only at this pointy anyway.
I have to say this set up has been super dependable so it has not been a burning urge to take the red pill.
P.S.- for kicks I cruises CL cars for sale and looked at my year cars for sale. Funny how many of them had LT s or kits + were at that 6 year window when the first smog was coming due. I'd get things like - "You'll be able to get it smogged easy" a common reply when I asked about details. Umm yeah right, now it's somebody else's problem... and it's not getting easier. :-(
All of this is why (as a resident of *that* state) I purchased the Ford Racing/Whipple SC kit from Ford and the CARB / 50 compliant Shorty Headers from JBA when I moved up. Some of the roll your own systems from folks like Lethal were looking awesome, but with no CARB I didn't want to have to go through huge drama swapping LTs or worse every 2 years. My set up with a few other little things works out to about 700 RWHP and has passed twice with the supplied Ford Racing tune. After my next smog in a couple months I *do* plan on getting another Lund tune and I have 1050x injectors. I'm willing to do a reflash and swap injectors every 2 years but not more than that. If this all gets worse, I'll just reg it out of the county and then is game on. It's pretty much track only at this pointy anyway.
I have to say this set up has been super dependable so it has not been a burning urge to take the red pill.
P.S.- for kicks I cruises CL cars for sale and looked at my year cars for sale. Funny how many of them had LT s or kits + were at that 6 year window when the first smog was coming due. I'd get things like - "You'll be able to get it smogged easy" a common reply when I asked about details. Umm yeah right, now it's somebody else's problem... and it's not getting easier. :-(
Wingrider
GT500 track guy
20 years ago I had a drag / street race car and all I did for smog was drop off the registration and a $100 bill at a buddy's gas station (fellow street racer) and a couple days later I'd come back to pick up all the paperwork ready for DMV. Now a days I picked some guy near my work with a good Yelp rating and all he has done is plug in the OBDII connector and look around under the hood + pop my gas door. Not at all "A guy I know", don't even know his name. Sadly I haven't found one of those "guys". He's never been under my GT500 or my other 2 normal cars so I guess I could pull off green cats. So far things are good with him so I don't want to burn any "trust" there might be. He has pretested for any errors that would fail the test tho and that was cool. One time he said my cats were not hot enough due to the short drive from work so that was erroring out. I make sure I've pulled all my track stuff off the car like stickers and car door numbers to tone down what I can. He just drags the cable out to the driveway of his shop and lets it idle.
Well. I'm going to have to read this and the PDF again after I digest the first reading. LOL!!!
WJBertrand
forum member
- Joined
- Dec 11, 2013
- Posts
- 739
- Reaction score
- 185
The label has been there since 2013, I just took that photo a few days ago, so it seems to be holding up well. Thanks for the information about the tech just entering the code.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro
GlassTop09
Senior Member
Kooks is not screwing us by labeling the "Green Cats" as " for off-road use only" Just as you brought up, they're protecting themselves from any potential legality issues from the EPA if they are used on vehicles driven on Federal/State public highways-roads. Being that Kooks is neither the manufacturer nor owns the original EPA certification permit, but rather G-Sport who's the actual manufacturer of the GESI cats which is based outside of the U.S in Ontario, Canada and IIRC, Canada doesn't have EPA clean air and CARB regulation acts as we have here in the U.S. Therefore, perhaps the G-Sport cats may not have any issues when it comes to passing emissions inspection in Canada, however, there's a very strong possibility they may have issues passing OBDII emissions scan inspection in the U.S. Anyhow, that's my take on it
Yeah but know this, the company itself may be located in Canada but the actual EPA certification of the product was done in a US Fed EPA certified, independent testing lab in California using US Fed EPA testing criteria so the product is US Fed EPA certified, OBDII-compliant for use in the USA, just not under CARB & is believed accepted in Canada as a legal emissions certified part (if any of our Canadian brothers can chime in on this part please do so, I would appreciate it).
IMHO, Kooks could have worded their legal statement w\ these Green Cats in a more legal friendly way to still maintain their desired EPA "legality protection" but at the same time make some recognition of G-Sport\GESI's legal Fed 49 State EPA certified, OBDII compliant certification G-Sport has on the cats Kooks is using (CJ Pony Parts is currently doing this w\ this part as a retail seller but AM\others are not so I don't trust it) OR actually make a deal w\ G-Sport\GESI to give G-Sport\GESI full ownership of the same product (no mention of Kook's or Kooks logo....G-Sport\GESI only...so it's not "Kook's" product) for a small licensing fee then sell it thru Kooks web site exclusively FOR G-Sport\GESI (no other retail outlets) as an alternative part to the original Kooks "GREEN CATS" products in order to "uncover" G-Sport\GESI's legal EPA cat certification they already have\own. Kooks would still make money off the sale & worksmanship of the materials they are currently using to attach to the cats to make the same product (same materials as used in their "Off Road" midpipes). This is a legal alternative pathway that IMHO would also suit both companies equally as it does now BUT allows us the consumer to actually use the legal documentation on the cats for public usage on Fed\State roads\hiways legally. Simply do what they're currently doing but in reverse........ Of course, Kooks & G-Sport\GESI would have to agree to it then work out the little details......
From a sales marketing standpoint alone it would make FAR more sense (and a shit ton more money to boot) for all the owners in the USA who are registered in non-CARB OBDII cert states\counties.....thus the intention of my use of the word "screwing" in that posting.
Sorry for the folks in the CARB adopted areas either way..........at this time.
But as you've stated...this is my wording, even though I also acknowledged the "legality" of this product in it's current marketing form so I still stand by it as it does still suck.....
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All of this fits with what I have seen/read searching for the "right" cats to install.Yeah but know this, the company itself may be located in Canada but the actual EPA certification of the product was done in a US Fed EPA certified, independent testing lab in California using US Fed EPA testing criteria so the product is US Fed EPA certified, OBDII-compliant for use in the USA, just not under CARB & is believed accepted in Canada as a legal emissions certified part (if any of our Canadian brothers can chime in on this part please do so, I would appreciate it).
IMHO, Kooks could have worded their legal statement w\ these Green Cats in a more legal friendly way to still maintain their desired EPA "legality protection" but at the same time make some recognition of G-Sport\GESI's legal Fed 49 State EPA certified, OBDII compliant certification G-Sport has on the cats Kooks is using (CJ Pony Parts is currently doing this w\ this part as a retail seller but AM\others are not so I don't trust it) OR actually make a deal w\ G-Sport\GESI to give G-Sport\GESI full ownership of the same product (no mention of Kook's or Kooks logo....G-Sport\GESI only...so it's not "Kook's" product) for a small licensing fee then sell it thru Kooks web site exclusively FOR G-Sport\GESI (no other retail outlets) as an alternative part to the original Kooks "GREEN CATS" products in order to "uncover" G-Sport\GESI's legal EPA cat certification they already have\own. Kooks would still make money off the sale & worksmanship of the materials they are currently using to attach to the cats to make the same product (same materials as used in their "Off Road" midpipes). This is a legal alternative pathway that IMHO would also suit both companies equally as it does now BUT allows us the consumer to actually use the legal documentation on the cats for public usage on Fed\State roads\hiways legally. Simply do what they're currently doing but in reverse........ Of course, Kooks & G-Sport\GESI would have to agree to it then work out the little details......
From a sales marketing standpoint alone it would make FAR more sense (and a shit ton more money to boot) for all the owners in the USA who are registered in non-CARB OBDII cert states\counties.....thus the intention of my use of the word "screwing" in that posting.
Sorry for the folks in the CARB adopted areas either way..........at this time.
But as you've stated...this is my wording, even though I also acknowledged the "legality" of this product in it's current marketing form so I still stand by it as it does still suck.....
Thank you GlassTop.
Fingers crossed on no P420/p430 popping up. Should have confirmation one way or the other if the Flows work as advertised: "keep the CEL OFF".
06 T-RED S/C GT
forum member
Yeah! Well know this, how does anybody really know for certain the EPA certification of the product was done in a US Fed EPA certified, independent testing lab in California using US Fed EPA testing criteria? For all we know, that testing location, equipment used could've been done anywhere on the planet. If the product is in fact US Fed EPA certified as claimed? Why isn't there any documentation from the EPA department that confirms the product is in fact Fed EPA certified. I've attempted using every search engine in order to locate any type of documentation from the EPA by also including the supposed EPA certification number from the G-Sport website. Well FYI: no such documentation, nor any information from the EPA department whatsoever could be found. Also take into consideration as to how many of us who have purchased the Kooks LT header system with "Green Cats" have actually passed their OBDII emission scans without requiring any catalyst monitors to be turned off/disabled in the tune. If I were a betting man, my guess would be very few if any at all lol. Therefore, if you seriously think in your right mind I'm going to fork over $ 1018.56 for a pair of Kooks LT headers and then another $1219.26 for the Kooks "Green Catted" mid-pipe which will more than likely not pass the OBDII emissions scan? think again, as I cannot afford to throw $2237.82 down the drain. That being said, until I see actual documented proof from the department of the EPA that the Kooks "Green Cats" are indeed Fed EPA certified and have also been proven to pass OBDII emissions scan testing without disabling/defeating any portion of the OEM catalyst system? Anything else is nothing more than just marketing hype B.S and pure speculation as far as I'm concerned!Yeah but know this, the company itself may be located in Canada but the actual EPA certification of the product was done in a US Fed EPA certified, independent testing lab in California using US Fed EPA testing criteria so the product is US Fed EPA certified, OBDII-compliant for use in the USA, just not under CARB & is believed accepted in Canada as a legal emissions certified part (if any of our Canadian brothers can chime in on this part please do so, I would appreciate it).
IMHO, Kooks could have worded their legal statement w\ these Green Cats in a more legal friendly way to still maintain their desired EPA "legality protection" but at the same time make some recognition of G-Sport\GESI's legal Fed 49 State EPA certified, OBDII compliant certification G-Sport has on the cats Kooks is using (CJ Pony Parts is currently doing this w\ this part as a retail seller but AM\others are not so I don't trust it) OR actually make a deal w\ G-Sport\GESI to give G-Sport\GESI full ownership of the same product (no mention of Kook's or Kooks logo....G-Sport\GESI only...so it's not "Kook's" product) for a small licensing fee then sell it thru Kooks web site exclusively FOR G-Sport\GESI (no other retail outlets) as an alternative part to the original Kooks "GREEN CATS" products in order to "uncover" G-Sport\GESI's legal EPA cat certification they already have\own. Kooks would still make money off the sale & worksmanship of the materials they are currently using to attach to the cats to make the same product (same materials as used in their "Off Road" midpipes). This is a legal alternative pathway that IMHO would also suit both companies equally as it does now BUT allows us the consumer to actually use the legal documentation on the cats for public usage on Fed\State roads\hiways legally. Simply do what they're currently doing but in reverse........ Of course, Kooks & G-Sport\GESI would have to agree to it then work out the little details......
From a sales marketing standpoint alone it would make FAR more sense (and a shit ton more money to boot) for all the owners in the USA who are registered in non-CARB OBDII cert states\counties.....thus the intention of my use of the word "screwing" in that posting.
Sorry for the folks in the CARB adopted areas either way..........at this time.
But as you've stated...this is my wording, even though I also acknowledged the "legality" of this product in it's current marketing form so I still stand by it as it does still suck.....
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GlassTop09
Senior Member
Homepage | California Air Resources Board
Put this here to not start no flame wars BUT if there was anything that the Fed EPA needed to copy from CARB it's the link at the bottom of CARB's home page...."Aftermarket Parts".
This is a listing of all CARB EO aftermarket parts legal to use in California or other CARB states from all vendors that sent parts for CARB cert testing. This includes FI kits (turbo's, centris & TVS\TS).
All parts come w\ the legal documentation & in the case of cats, the engine size\max poundage rating so that you can match up to what you got & show at smog tests for verification.
You can talk about them all you want BUT they have made it as easy & helpful as they could for folks to have their modded cars w\ performance AND comply w\ the CARB rules.
I look for this site to get pinned to the Fed EPA web site & become the official site in the upcoming future.
Put this here to not start no flame wars BUT if there was anything that the Fed EPA needed to copy from CARB it's the link at the bottom of CARB's home page...."Aftermarket Parts".
This is a listing of all CARB EO aftermarket parts legal to use in California or other CARB states from all vendors that sent parts for CARB cert testing. This includes FI kits (turbo's, centris & TVS\TS).
All parts come w\ the legal documentation & in the case of cats, the engine size\max poundage rating so that you can match up to what you got & show at smog tests for verification.
You can talk about them all you want BUT they have made it as easy & helpful as they could for folks to have their modded cars w\ performance AND comply w\ the CARB rules.
I look for this site to get pinned to the Fed EPA web site & become the official site in the upcoming future.
WJBertrand
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I actually emailed Ford Racing Performance Parts, they were really responsive I and got this reply:
When I followed up and asked if I would be referred to a referee inspection he said:
Good Morning
The E.O number certifies that the parts are emissions legal. The shop doing the inspection should be cognizant of that and pass the car.
Have a good day.
Matt Korczyk
Ford Performance Parts Vehicle Coordinator
Ford Performance Parts Tech LIne
(800) 367-3788
The E.O number certifies that the parts are emissions legal. The shop doing the inspection should be cognizant of that and pass the car.
Have a good day.
Matt Korczyk
Ford Performance Parts Vehicle Coordinator
Ford Performance Parts Tech LIne
(800) 367-3788
When I followed up and asked if I would be referred to a referee inspection he said:
There shouldn’t be any need to, but as we all know sometimes the inspection people can be…difficult…to put it nicely.
With that said, assuming you have the E.O sticker you are 100% legal though.
Matt Korczyk
Ford Performance Parts Vehicle Coordinator
Ford Performance Parts Tech LIne
(800) 367-3788
With that said, assuming you have the E.O sticker you are 100% legal though.
Matt Korczyk
Ford Performance Parts Vehicle Coordinator
Ford Performance Parts Tech LIne
(800) 367-3788
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