DiMora's Intercooling system upgrade - Operation Iceman

Department Of Boost

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Wow. I'm done, and this mod is EPIC.

Over 14 GALLON PER MINUTE (GPM) FLOW RATE!



So...we know for a fact that this beast flows MORE than 14GPM. As I started pouring in the 4 gallons of water I had in the bucket I'm holding, the Stewart pump sucked faster than I could initially pour and it sucked in a gulp of air for a second, then gobbled up more water and just kept on going like a champ. In 15 seconds, this system ingested 3.5 gallons of water and a gulp of air. That is THROUGH THE ROUSH TVS INTERCOOLER that only has 3/4" inlets and outlets!
watch

You can't test the flow rate like that. When pumping into a empty system you're not pumping against the restriction that would be there is the entire system was full of water alreday. You're pumping against nothing (air).



I had expected 9.3 GPM after talking with Jason at Department OF Boost (DOB), as he has done some experiments on flow rate. DOB's new heat exchanger with 1.25" inlets and outlets has been tested to flow 12.75 GPM. Needless to say I'm VERY please with over 14GPM.

Your Stewart/1" line/1" HE/stock IC should move 10.75gpm. If you take the 14gpm result you got above and subtract the "bonus flow" you got from not pumping against a restriction that sounds like what you have.

If you were to gauge up to a 1.25" system you would see 15.5gpm

All of this data is up on the site:
https://www.departmentofboost.com/tech/


I also ran a toggle switch to the fans on my Steeda Triple Pass...I tried cycling them OFF and ON while cruising...I could not notice a difference on IAT's...more on that topic in a future update, but a quick glimpse into that next study is that I have ordered some coolant temp sensors and I plan on measuring temperatures with actual probes in the coolant BEFORE and AFTER the the heat exchanger to see what impact the fans make (if any at all) when cruising. The big thing is that I want to make sure that fans do not harm my intercooler performance, and real data collection with a system installed on a car is the only way to make that determination. "To fan - or not to fan - that is the question".

Give the fan article on the site a read. Then go to the DOB FB Group and see the second half of testing (I need to find the time to consolidate them into one article)
 

crjackson

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That’s good to hear, and I may still go that route as an upgrade. I just need to do the full/complete set of upgrades all at once. That’s why I responded to this thread, to see if I can determine if this upgrade would make sense for me.

I now have the time to accumulate these parts vs needing something now. Thanks for checking in. Perhaps you can add your opinion on the subject.
 

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That’s good to hear, and I may still go that route as an upgrade. I just need to do the full/complete set of upgrades all at once. That’s why I responded to this thread, to see if I can determine if this upgrade would make sense for me.

I now have the time to accumulate these parts vs needing something now. Thanks for checking in. Perhaps you can add your opinion on the subject.
Take a look at this article:
Intercooler System Requirements Tech
https://www.departmentofboost.com/tech/

It's going to give you an idea of the system requirements to match your particular situation. You can take that data over to the systems/combo's available for your car. The short version is that unless you have a DOB manifold at a minimum you're going to want a Super Single+ sized HE, 1" lines and our big pump (a little bigger than the Stewart). Pumping through the Roush/Whipple/Etc intercoolers is not easy to get good water flow out of.
 

crjackson

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My path would also include the manifold w/heat barrier. I just want to manage my expectations. I know the flow would be drastically more than I currently have, but I’m not sure if this would show me a noticeable improvement in my day to day use.
 

Department Of Boost

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My path would also include the manifold w/heat barrier. I just want to manage my expectations. I know the flow would be drastically more than I currently have, but I’m not sure if this would show me a noticeable improvement in my day to day use.

The difference it will make will depend on what you're setup is now (or will be in the future) and what use it sees. For example, a couple of extremes to make the point:

-If you are making 10psi, daily driving the car and you only get into boost for 5-6sec at a time (getting on the freeway for example) with a lot of time in between times in boost throwing a massive IC system at it won't be a life changer. You will notice. You will like it. But it won't change your life.

-If you making 20psi, daily drive the car and go out and roll race it a lot you will have MUCH higher heat rejection needs. Going from you standard .75" based "stock" type system to something 1"+ based with a big pump and HE will be life changing.

I myself need my cars to never pull timing/power because of high IAT's. I expect the intercooler system to work as well as the engine cooling system. How pissed would you be if you were frequently down on power because of engine water temps? You would be shoving that car back down Ford's throat. It pisses me off. HP costs about $30/hp (up to a point, then it costs more). If I'm diving on surface streets (hard on the cooling system) and then decide to get on the highway, which the throttle open, and I'm down 75hp (common) because if high IAT's I'm mad. I'm mad because I'm down the power. I'm mad because I should be able to do that with no penalty. I'm mad because I just wasted $2250 (75hp x $30). If I can spend $1500 to get my $2250 in lost HP back you bet I'm going to pay it.

If you want to know how life changing a good IC system will be for you and how you drive hook up/display your IAT's so you can see them while you're driving. Every time they're over 136deg you're down on power. When you're up in the 145deg+ range a LOT of power. If you're like me (driving a "standard IC system equipped car) you will be ticked off a lot. Setting the car up so I'm not ticked off all of the time is life changing to me. I don't want to be pissed at my car. I want to enjoy it.
 

Department Of Boost

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I also ran a toggle switch to the fans on my Steeda Triple Pass...I tried cycling them OFF and ON while cruising...I could not notice a difference on IAT's...more on that topic in a future update, but a quick glimpse into that next study is that I have ordered some coolant temp sensors and I plan on measuring temperatures with actual probes in the coolant BEFORE and AFTER the the heat exchanger to see what impact the fans make (if any at all) when cruising. The big thing is that I want to make sure that fans do not harm my intercooler performance, and real data collection with a system installed on a car is the only way to make that determination. "To fan - or not to fan - that is the question".

I look forward to seeing your fan comparisons. I have the VMP triple pass with fans. I do have a kill switch on the fans, so maybe I'll do a little playing also in the near future . . .

Putting a switch on the fan is not going to tell you if the fans are hurting you at speed. The fan blades impeding airflow are a very, very, very small portion of the overall impedance created by the fan "cages', mounts, motors, etc. You can' put a switch on those. The fans and whatever is welded to the HE to mount them need to be removed to see how much they are hurting. Check out the fan article on my site. It will answer a lot of these questions for you.

https://www.departmentofboost.com/tech/
 

DiMora

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You can't test the flow rate like that. When pumping into a empty system you're not pumping against the restriction that would be there is the entire system was full of water alreday. You're pumping against nothing (air).





Your Stewart/1" line/1" HE/stock IC should move 10.75gpm. If you take the 14gpm result you got above and subtract the "bonus flow" you got from not pumping against a restriction that sounds like what you have.

If you were to gauge up to a 1.25" system you would see 15.5gpm

All of this data is up on the site:
https://www.departmentofboost.com/tech/




Give the fan article on the site a read. Then go to the DOB FB Group and see the second half of testing (I need to find the time to consolidate them into one article)

System was fully primed with no air. My GPM is valid I believe.
 

crjackson

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The difference it will make will depend on what you're setup is now (or will be in the future) and what use it sees. For example, a couple of extremes to make the point:

-If you are making 10psi, daily driving the car and you only get into boost for 5-6sec at a time (getting on the freeway for example) with a lot of time in between times in boost throwing a massive IC system at it won't be a life changer. You will notice. You will like it. But it won't change your life.

Roush Phase 3 Supercharger
VMP Heat Exchanger, fanless
JLT Catch Can
Boundary Billet Oil Pump Gears
Boundary Billet Crank Sprocket
Kooks Long Tube Headers and H-Pipe
Ford Racing Radiator
GT500 7 blade Fan
170° Riesche Thermostat
Iridium spark plugs 1 heat range cooler
Dyno Tune

This is my setup ...

I guess I am in the category above at the moment. I see stationary temps in the 150° F neighborhood when idling in rush hour traffic

As soon as the car starts moving, temps go down fast. Anything other that idling in rush hour on warm days, and my temps are 7° ~ 14° over ambient. Rolling is always less than 100°.
 
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Department Of Boost

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Roush Phase 3 Supercharger
VMP Heat Exchanger
JLT Catch Can
Boundary Billet Oil Pump Gears
Boundary Billet Crank Sprocket
Kooks Long Tube Headers and H-Pipe
Ford Racing Radiator
GT500 7 blade Fan
170° Riesche Thermostat
Iridium spark plugs 1 heat range cooler
Dyno Tune

This is my setup ...

I guess I am in the category above at the moment. I see stationary temps in the 150° F neighborhood when idling in rush hour traffic

As soon as the car starts moving, temps go down fast. Anything other that idling in rush hour on warm days, and my temps are 7° ~ 14° over ambient. Rolling is always less than 100°.

-What water pump do you have?

-How much boost are you making?

While the IAT numbers above can mean something they are largely irrelevant. What matters most and arguably the only thing that matters is what your IAT's are under boost. That's when the blower is making heat and when the ECU pulls timing/power. With the car fully warmed on a 75ish+deg day run the car at WOT for 10-12sec. What is the IAT right before you chop the throttle (you're still making full boost). That is the test to determine the health of the system.
 

crjackson

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-What water pump do you have?

-How much boost are you making?

While the IAT numbers above can mean something they are largely irrelevant. What matters most and arguably the only thing that matters is what your IAT's are under boost. That's when the blower is making heat and when the ECU pulls timing/power. With the car fully warmed on a 75ish+deg day run the car at WOT for 10-12sec. What is the IAT right before you chop the throttle (you're still making full boost). That is the test to determine the health of the system.

The pump is whatever Roush includes in their Phase 3 Kit.

The pulley is the 80mm from the kit also. It’s supposed to be 10-11 PSI but I don’t have an actual boost gauge to check with. Since the car has KOOKS 1-3/4” headers, and no CATS I suspect it’s lower.

I’ll check on the IAT numbers and get back with you. 10-12 seconds of boost doesn’t sound like a lot of time, but it’s not easy around here to find a place to check that. I’m already near or over 140 MPH in 10-12 seconds, so it’s definitely doing it job. I’ll find a spot to run, and see what it comes up with.
 

DiMora

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I don't understand the process you used to test flow rate then. Can you explain that to me?

Sure. System fully primed. Pump pushing through heat exchanger then the biggest restriction (intercooler, which only has 3/4” plumbing)...instead of then going into the degas tank icebox, I “short circuited” the 1” (return) hose that would have gone into my degas tank (icebox) into a 6 gallon bucket. Since return coolant was not flowing into degas tank, I had to replenish the coolant as I did the test with the coolant I poured from the bucket into the degas/icebox.

Timed it, measured coolant in bucket, converted to GPM.

I think it’s valid because the coolant had to flow through the entire system. Full restriction through all plumbing.
 

DiMora

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Putting a switch on the fan is not going to tell you if the fans are hurting you at speed. The fan blades impeding airflow are a very, very, very small portion of the overall impedance created by the fan "cages', mounts, motors, etc. You can' put a switch on those. The fans and whatever is welded to the HE to mount them need to be removed to see how much they are hurting. Check out the fan article on my site. It will answer a lot of these questions for you.

https://www.departmentofboost.com/tech/

My biggest thing with the fans is that I see negligible effects idling with them on/off. I thought they would really matter idling and I would see a significant temp swing cycling the fans on/off...but I do not.

I also tend to agree with you that above 20-30 MPH they might be hurting more than helping...I’m not necessarily onboard with the testing methodology you used in your tech article to drive your conclusions...it’s not quite scientific/ controlled enough for me, but I applaud your effort...and one could argue my “bucket” test has holes in it as well and a high dollar flow meter would be much better.

I would REALLY like to take my car and log testing with two temp sensors one before and one after the heat exchanger to determine the Delta-T with fans - and then as you suggest...rip them off the car completely and repeat the test to see if mounts, shrouds, fan blades, etc. are harming flow and Delta-T above 20-30 MPH.

If I was doing it again I would NOT go with fans.

I’m also interested in the setups from Forced Induction Interchillers -and think Freon cooling may be the hot (errr cold) ticket in lieu of giant heat exchangers.
 
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Department Of Boost

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Sure. System fully primed. Pump pushing through heat exchanger then the biggest restriction (intercooler, which only has 3/4” plumbing)...instead of then going into the degas tank icebox, I “short circuited” the 1” (return) hose that would have gone into my degas tank (icebox) into a 6 gallon bucket. Since return coolant was not flowing into degas tank, I had to replenish the coolant as I did the test with the coolant I poured from the bucket into the degas/icebox.

Timed it, measured coolant in bucket, converted to GPM.

I think it’s valid because the coolant had to flow through the entire system. Full restriction through all plumbing.

That seems like a fairly accurate test aside from it being such a small sample size (time and volume). Small inconsistencies in the data will end up being seen in the result. Without a dedicated flow setup/rig that's as good as it's going to get short of plumbing a flow meter in. Which at 1" is pretty inexpensive/easy.

Check this out:
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B07VCL1JW1/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_title?ie=UTF8&psc=1
 

Department Of Boost

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I’ll check on the IAT numbers and get back with you.

Looking forward to it. Some of your numbers posted earlier don't quite jive to me. We need that WOT number to get an idea of what is really going on. I have an assumed conclusion. I'm curious if I'm right.
 
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Department Of Boost

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My biggest thing with the fans is that I see negligible effects idling with them on/off. I thought they would really matter idling and I would see a significant temp swing cycling the fans on/off...but I do not.

I also tend to agree with you that above 20-30 MPH they might be hurting more than helping...I’m not necessarily onboard with the testing methodology you used in your tech article to drive your conclusions...it’s not quite scientific/ controlled enough for me, but I applaud your effort...and one could argue my “bucket” test has holes in it as well and a high dollar flow meter would be much better.

I would REALLY like to take my car and log testing with two temp sensors one before and one after the heat exchanger to determine the Delta-T with fans - and then as you suggest...rip them off the car completely and repeat the test to see if mounts, shrouds, fan blades, etc. are harming flow and Delta-T above 20-30 MPH.

If I was doing it again I would NOT go with fans.

I’m also interested in the setups from Forced Induction Interchillers -and think Freon cooling may be the hot (errr cold) ticket in lieu of giant heat exchangers.

I agree that my testing of fans could have been better (I didn't have a car available at the time to test with). That can be said about most testing though. It combined with info I got out of SVT was enough for me to decide to not put fans on the heat exchangers I was designing at the time. I don't sell stuff that doesn't work. I had to know.

Did you see the second fan test article in my FB group where the inlet/outlet of the HE are measured and the fan cycled?

Like most stuff IC system related the "Chillers" effectiveness comes down to what your usage is and your goals. The best environment for them is the drag strip. You can let them "charge up" (cool the water temp down) and make a pass with really cold water. Then you let it sit around and "charge up" again. But, don't try and make another pass right away (hot lap). The system will not have enough time to cool the water back down. It's ability to reject heat is not very fast. For a street car they work pretty OK as long as again, you only want to make one hit, then wait a while before making another. They're like having a ice tank that you don't have to load/drain. But you do have to wait.

The plus side to a heat exchanger system is that if you run enough core volume and water speed you can make pull, after pull, after pull, after pull and you will get the same result every time. That is something that can't be done with any of the chillers, meth (you run out eventually), ice, etc. If a persons needs line up with the limitations of a chiller, ice. meth, etc then they are potential solutions. Even if it costs me a little more money I would rather have a heat exchanger based system though. It's simpler, has less failure points, no maintenance and it works all of the time no matter the conditions or what it's being used for. If I were going to add piggy back system it would be meth. Simple, light, inexpensive and VERY effective. It would have to be one very, very serious car though. I've got a customer with a 1200rwhp/26lb of boost GT500 running the Titanic HE and 21gpm of water flow that can run a mile pass and the IAT's never go higher than 25deg over ambient. Why mass with anything else? It's a solved problem.

Right now you're a modified intercooler and bigger heat exchanger away from never seeing a high IAT again.
 

Department Of Boost

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I would REALLY like to take my car and log testing with two temp sensors one before and one after the heat exchanger to determine the Delta-T with fans - and then as you suggest...rip them off the car completely and repeat the test to see if mounts, shrouds, fan blades, etc. are harming flow and Delta-T above 20-30 MPH.

Take a look at the test I have in the FB group before you do the test you're thinking about above. Unless you slow your water speed way down you're not going to get any meaningful data. You will understand when you watch the video.
 

crjackson

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Looking forward to it. Some of your numbers posted earlier don't quite jive to me. We need that WOT number to get an idea of what is really going on. I have an assumed conclusion. I'm curious if I'm right.

I'm not sure what numbers don’t jive, but I have figured out one error. On my dash gauges, I have an air inlet temperature that I have been erroneously thinking this is my IAT. Further reading seems to indicate there is a second air temp sensor and that’s the temp you need. I don’t even know how to read that temp. I can only assume I would have to datalog with my SCT. If that’s correct, I’ll have to figure out how to set that up. I’ve never done that.

I would be interested in your assumed conclusion. It’s light years ahead of my experience no doubt.

I took my car to a well known speed-shop for all of it (the setup), so I had to trust local talent for install and tuning. They seem to have done a good job for the most part, but I have questions that I’m having trouble getting answered. The either don’t know, or don’t remember.

The installer recommended the Roush Phase 3 Kit, I added the radiator upgrade, OPG/CS upgrade, HX upgrade, LTH upgrade, GT500 fan upgrade, Thermostat upgrade. My VMP HX selection was based on your (I assume you used to be squuid) recommendation some time ago.

Over all, my setup is awesome for a street car AFAIK, but if I can improve on it with a few more upgrades to the IC-System as a whole, then I probably will. I don’t race, and I don’t need to upgrade. I just like feeling that I didn’t leave a lot on the table.
 
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crjackson

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My biggest thing with the fans is that I see negligible effects idling with them on/off. I thought they would really matter idling and I would see a significant temp swing cycling the fans on/off...but I do not.

That’s some of the updated feedback I was initially asking for. I went with no fans since reading the DOB article. I wanted some feedback from someone with the fans. Thanks for that. I now feel comfortable with that decision. My installer tried to sell me an HX with fans. He didn’t have one without fans, so I ordered directly from VMP.


Right now you're a modified intercooler and bigger heat exchanger away from never seeing a high IAT again.

Not a reply to me, but also great information. Does the super-single come anywhere close to being able to make that claim?

I wouldn’t want to modify my current IC. I’d rather buy one from you ready to go, along with a suitable pump, and HX all n one order.
 

Pentalab

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Plug an digital aeroforce gauge or similar...into the OBD port, then you can read the IAT at a glance.
I have 3 x aeroforce gauges , and they fit into the SOS A pillar. SOS makes A pillars for either 2 x gauges..or 3 x gauges. 2 x gauges is ample. The OEM A pillar just pops right out. 2 x gauges stuffed into new A pillar gauge pods, then the cables are simply stuffed down the gaping hole by the dash.... and routed underneath the dash, then plugged into the OBD port. 2 x cables feed one connector...that plugs into OBD. Each gauge displays any 2 of the myriad of data parameters available. Each display updates in as little as 100 msecs.

You can even set variable thresholds, for alarms, or trigger one of the pair of red leds on each gauge. Like
"IAT > 120 F". You could set the 2nd display for "IAT> 140 F". Being able to read anything and everything off the OBD port is a godsend.
 

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