Brake booster question

larry Stark

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have a 2011 mustang GT that came with the 2 piston Brembo Performance Package front brakes. I've upgraded the brakes to the 15" front and 13.8" rotor GT500 set up using 2018 Bullitt 6 piston Brembo's up front. Due to the larger piston area of the 6 piston Brembo's I have a longer pedal travel than I'd like. I still have the stock 2011 GT brake booster, P/N BR3V-2B195 -AA. I'm looking at upgrading to the 2012 Boss 302 brake booster P/N DR3Z-2005-A. My problem is when researching the Boss 302 booster I can't figure out if it stiffens the pedal and reduces pedal travel. Different vendors tell different stories. One says it reduces pedal effort 30% implying a larger diameter diaphram, which is not what I want. Others say it reduces boost by 30%. I want to decrease boot assist and reduce pedal travel. Can someone clarify whether the Boss 302 booster reduces pedal travel by reducing boost assist by 30%. TIA
Larry
 

Juice

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Its not the booster thats causing long pedal travel.
Either there is some air still in the system, or you need a master cylinder for the 6pot brembos.
 

JC SSP

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I have stock brakes on my 05" (Hawk pads, Stoptech drilled & slotted, etc.) my 87" Coupe has SVO front brakes calipers, but still has the drums in the rear (YES I know...), just basic performance upgrades.

My Audi w/30K miles has stock brakes, but planning on upgrading to big brake kit (BBK) and all the research leads to staying within the same relevant volume of fluid to piston ratio as close to stock as possible... but massive 6-pots will usually require a large master cylinder and even possibly an external portioning valve. Not sure if its the same for Mustangs...
 

OX1

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Agree that changing booster will only change brake feel, how hard you have to push or not, but won't do much to change pedal travel.

I thought my stock S197 had long travel, mushy feeling brakes stock. I was told on this board and others that going to the 4 piston Brembos would not make pedal travel worse (the theory as it was relayed to me, was the caliper was a stiffer material, and had opposing pistons). Well, it did. The brakes work fantastic, ONCE you get enough pedal travel. Many who upgrade to larger piston area calipers are OK with the long travel brakes, as it is easier to modulate on the track.

For me, I despise the longer travel, especially when my 17 Fusion Sport has about the same stock braking system as my stock 14 GT had, yet travel is extremely short and feel/pressure required is outstanding (again, for me). I'm only 150 lbs, so it also depends upon you overall body size/strength. If you squat 600 lbs, you probably naturally push harder on your brakes than I do.

So all that said, how to fix it. The S550 PP MC fits with some fab work, one new custom made brake line, and a custom made adjustable booster rod. You do lose the MC level sensor function (you can keep sensor connected to allow ABS and TC to still work), and it does fit with a TVS, but I never felt like I got the brakes fully bled when I had that setup, so I went back to stock) thinking either I did something wrong on the conversion or the parts just did not work well together.

One of the issues I had, but did not think about at that time, was I had put a much more aggressive pad on (not a track pad, but aggressive street) and the pads needed a bit to warm up, exasperating the issue of me thinking I had no/little braking. Anyway, I have a full write up on it as trackmustangsonline (search on OX1 on that board and it should come up).

The other thought I've had recently is maybe changing pedal ratio. It will make my pedal travel shorter, but at the expense of forcing you to press harder on pedal to get the same line pressure. I think I am OK with both of those.

I found this cool bracket setup that is used to swap to manual brakes. What I want to do is kind of the reverse, with less pedal ratio (the kit below is for more ratio, to convert to manual brakes). But I can build my own bracket, I just like the idea of being able to change pedal ratio without moving pedal pivot point or master cylinder location. So I might try this setup at some point if I get to it. I also like the fact I can put it back to stock if I don't like it. I will need to drill one new hole in brake pedal, not sure how hard it is to get an auto brake pedal assy out.

PEDAL%20RATIO%20BRACKET.jpg


ChaseBaysDualPistonBrakeBoosterDeletewithBolt-On6_1PedalRatio_5_1800x1800.webp

https://www.speedscience.co.nz/prod...olt-on-6-1-pedal-ratio?variant=39719182172259

There is also a rubber disk in between the booster diaphram/input rod and MC rod (output). I suspect Ford put it in for NVH, but no one has ever explained to me why it is there and why I should not replace it with something harder, maybe even Delrin to get some better pedal feel. It fits in the inner end of booster rod, see here. Many go to great lengths to stiffen MC and/or firewall to eliminate flex, yet Ford puts a "squishy" rubber disk in your stock braking system from the get go, go figure!! I have done a ton of modified/upgraded braking systems on old Ford trucks and Broncos with different boosters/MC's and even several different style hydro-boosts, and have never seen a rubber disk like this before.

20180825_141055.jpg


20180825_141034.jpg
 
Last edited:

larry Stark

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Its not the booster thats causing long pedal travel.
Either there is some air still in the system, or you need a master cylinder for the 6pot brembos.

I'm not sure this is correct. I've bled the system and have a rock solid pedal when applying the brakes after purging the booster vacuum. With a solid pedal the MC has displaced all the brake fluid needed to move the brake pistons against the rotors. Brake fluid is incompressible, well nearly, so no more fluid is moved from the MC beyond this point. The only thing that changes is the force applied to the already compressed fluid in the MC. The pedal ratio and the boost assist determines the amount of force you have to apply to get adequate fluid pressure in the lines to stop the car. I was surprised to see the prior post about there being a .312" rubber washer between the booster rod and the MC rod. the compression of that washer multiplied by the pedal ratio would explain much of the extra travel when the power boost is applied. I'm going to take apart a booster and see if this washer can be easily replaced with one made of Delrin.
 

OX1

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I'm not sure this is correct. I've bled the system and have a rock solid pedal when applying the brakes after purging the booster vacuum. With a solid pedal the MC has displaced all the brake fluid needed to move the brake pistons against the rotors. Brake fluid is incompressible, well nearly, so no more fluid is moved from the MC beyond this point. The only thing that changes is the force applied to the already compressed fluid in the MC. The pedal ratio and the boost assist determines the amount of force you have to apply to get adequate fluid pressure in the lines to stop the car. I was surprised to see the prior post about there being a .312" rubber washer between the booster rod and the MC rod. the compression of that washer multiplied by the pedal ratio would explain much of the extra travel when the power boost is applied. I'm going to take apart a booster and see if this washer can be easily replaced with one made of Delrin.

If you do, be careful of this small metal piece, it's up in there after you pull out the booster rod/rubber disk. Nothing really holding it, and don't HAVE to take it out really. But if you remove booster like I did, (wanted to see how hard it would be to put in S550 booster) you'd want it out of the way first (so it does not fall out and get lost).

20180825_141341.jpg


20180825_141323.jpg
 
Last edited:

larry Stark

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Agree that changing booster will only change brake feel, how hard you have to push or not, but won't do much to change pedal travel.

I thought my stock S197 had long travel, mushy feeling brakes stock. I was told on this board and others that going to the 4 piston Brembos would not make pedal travel worse (the theory as it was relayed to me, was the caliper was a stiffer material, and had opposing pistons). Well, it did. The brakes work fantastic, ONCE you get enough pedal travel. Many who upgrade to larger piston area calipers are OK with the long travel brakes, as it is easier to modulate on the track.

For me, I despise the longer travel, especially when my 17 Fusion Sport has about the same stock braking system as my stock 14 GT had, yet travel is extremely short and feel/pressure required is outstanding (again, for me). I'm only 150 lbs, so it also depends upon you overall body size/strength. If you squat 600 lbs, you probably naturally push harder on your brakes than I do.

So all that said, how to fix it. The S550 PP MC fits with some fab work, one new custom made brake line, and a custom made adjustable booster rod. You do lose the MC level sensor function (you can keep sensor connected to allow ABS and TC to still work), and it does fit with a TVS, but I never felt like I got the brakes fully bled when I had that setup, so I went back to stock) thinking either I did something wrong on the conversion or the parts just did not work well together.

One of the issues I had, but did not think about at that time, was I had put a much more aggressive pad on (not a track pad, but aggressive street) and the pads needed a bit to warm up, exasperating the issue of me thinking I had no/little braking. Anyway, I have a full write up on it as trackmustangsonline (search on OX1 on that board and it should come up).

The other thought I've had recently is maybe changing pedal ratio. It will make my pedal travel shorter, but at the expense of forcing you to press harder on pedal to get the same line pressure. I think I am OK with both of those.

I found this cool bracket setup that is used to swap to manual brakes. What I want to do is kind of the reverse, with less pedal ratio (the kit below is for more ratio, to convert to manual brakes). But I can build my own bracket, I just like the idea of being able to change pedal ratio without moving pedal pivot point or master cylinder location. So I might try this setup at some point if I get to it. I also like the fact I can put it back to stock if I don't like it. I will need to drill one new hole in brake pedal, not sure how hard it is to get an auto brake pedal assy out.

PEDAL%20RATIO%20BRACKET.jpg


ChaseBaysDualPistonBrakeBoosterDeletewithBolt-On6_1PedalRatio_5_1800x1800.webp

https://www.speedscience.co.nz/prod...olt-on-6-1-pedal-ratio?variant=39719182172259

There is also a rubber disk in between the booster diaphram/input rod and MC rod (output). I suspect Ford put it in for NVH, but no one has ever explained to me why it is there and why I should not replace it with something harder, maybe even Delrin to get some better pedal feel. It fits in the inner end of booster rod, see here. Many go to great lengths to stiffen MC and/or firewall to eliminate flex, yet Ford puts a "squishy" rubber disk in your stock braking system from the get go, go figure!! I have done a ton of modified/upgraded braking systems on old Ford trucks and Broncos with different boosters/MC's and even several different style hydro-boosts, and have never seen a rubber disk like this before.

20180825_141055.jpg


20180825_141034.jpg

I just bought an S197 brake booster and disassembled it to see if it was possible to replace rubber with delrin. I removed valve assembly and found there is NO rubber between the fork rod and the MC push rod. there is a floating piston swaged to the end of the fork rod that can swivel but has no linear travel. The piston fits into the diaphram plate to which the MC piston is hard mounted. In effect the MC push rod is connected to the brake pedal with a solid mechanical connection. In conclussion there is nothing to be gained in brake travel by messing with brake boosterBB15.jpg BB14.jpg

BB9.jpg
 

OX1

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I just bought an S197 brake booster and disassembled it to see if it was possible to replace rubber with delrin. I removed valve assembly and found there is NO rubber between the fork rod and the MC push rod. there is a floating piston swaged to the end of the fork rod that can swivel but has no linear travel. The piston fits into the diaphram plate to which the MC piston is hard mounted. In effect the MC push rod is connected to the brake pedal with a solid mechanical connection. In conclussion there is nothing to be gained in brake travel by messing with brake boosterView attachment 87196 View attachment 87195

View attachment 87197

My 2014 (which I bought new, so am original owner) had this,

20180825_141006.jpg


20180825_141034.jpg


20180825_141055.jpg


I tapped the booster rod and made it adjustable (and longer).

20180825_141136.jpg


20180826_185410.jpg


So you can't make a blanket statement like that. It could have been an auto only or 13/14 thing.
You also seem to be messing with the wrong end. What does the front of booster look like. Does it have this plastic mess inside, with the small metal "pin". Does your booster rod look like above? You can see center there, where my booster rod with rubber disk fits over (in front of) the plastic.

20180825_141333.jpg


20180825_141323.jpg
 

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