2005 4.0 V6 E85 Conversion

01yellerCobra

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Do we have anyone on here actually running E85? I'd be curious to see what they say as far as what the actual difference in MPG versus what the math tells us. I've talked a couple people that claim near stock numbers for part throttle if cruising on the freeway. But obviously that all changes at WOT.
 

MrAwesome987

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I run E85.

I got about 15-16 mpg with combined driving (a little hwy and a little city) on 93 and about 12-13 mpg doing the same driving on e85. For me, I think it was worth it, because I make a little more power, and its safer, and the e85 is more than 30% cheaper for me.

The only real downside is the range - that sucks.
 

08MustangDude

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The fuel pump in the V6 will handle the E85 with the larger injectors.

You will need a tune for optimum performance, and the engine is 210 HP,
expect 223-225HP with E85 tuned right, with an intake, and the larger
injectors.

E85 will end up costing you more, because it has less energy output (BTU)
per gallon than gasoline does. In the end, you will use more E85 than fuel, so
you may end up paying the same, because you will be at the pumps more
often than with regular gas.

I run 25% E85 with 87 RUG. I fill up, run to 3/4 tank, then top off with
E85. So far, so good... Car is actually liking it...

E85 is rated at 100-105 octane, runs cooler than traditional gasoline thus allows the
car’s timing to be increased, making more power overall. However, these 4.0s
are not VVT engines, so they will NOT benefit like the 3.7 V6 would with VVT. All
the 4.0 gets is spark timing advances, no cam timing advances. The only way
to get results with E85 on the 4.0, is boosting the motor.

AS mentioned, but lets go further; E85 has about 33% less BTUs than traditional gasoline.
As a result, this decreases fuel economy. While the price per gallon may be cheaper than 93
octane gasoline, you will be buying more of it at the pump. It’s best to see how often you
drive, how far, etc. to determine if it is worth the potential additional fuel cost. If you
like what you feel, and race around a lot, you will lose money on E85. You will be as low
as 12MPG with E85 with the 4.0 V6.

Once you tune it to E85, you can't run regular fuel, when you change out the
injectors for larger ones. In reality, all you need is the injectors and tune. Like,
the GT only needs 47lb injectors and a tune to run E85.

The corrosive thing is not true, that's METHANOL, not Ethanol. The problem with
Ethanol, is it absorbs water from any moisture sources. If the car sits for 30
days, you can probably count on that Ethanol you put in, now being water...
It is, however, a dryer fuel, and can ruin gaskets and seals faster.

Also, yes, E85 is cheaper because it's not taxed yet.

Also, on my '08 Mustang Gas Cap:
img_2029.jpg

Tells me all I need to know about what fuel NOT to use...
 

DiMora

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E85 has huge advantages if you are boosted. On 93 Octane you can run ~17 degrees ignition timing maximum and on E85 you can run ~22 degrees. The alcohol in the E85 has an intake charge cooling effect. But...on a non-boosted engine...that advantage is gone and you really can't capture any benefit without a turbo or supercharger...and as previously stated, you are flowing ~30% more E85 vs. 93 octane. I see no valid use case with this particular vehicle unless you run a supercharger or a turbo.
 

08MustangDude

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Mine says the same thing on my 09. Hasn't caused a single issue. It's probably just an emissions thing, which I could care less about.
I run the 25% mix so far, and it idles a little more smooth, and runs better. I am using
a slightly bit more of fuel, but with the mix it's not bad. I am not sure I want to go full on
E85 yet...

E85 has huge advantages if you are boosted. On 93 Octane you can run ~17 degrees ignition timing maximum and on E85 you can run ~22 degrees. The alcohol in the E85 has an intake charge cooling effect. But...on a non-boosted engine...that advantage is gone and you really can't capture any benefit without a turbo or supercharger...and as previously stated, you are flowing ~30% more E85 vs. 93 octane. I see no valid use case with this particular vehicle unless you run a supercharger or a turbo.
I had torque up on the radio screen (android), and went WOT with the 25% mix. Timing
was at 19-21. This is a mix of 87 E10 with some E15 left over, and 25% E85. I put $12 of E15
at start. Then fill up with 87/E10 at Altoona, run up to Lewistown and back to Altoona, then top
off with E85 at about 3/4 tank. Mustang likes it....

I also said, you need to boost the motor for any real effects. Tuned, N/A will get you ~210
to the wheels... Someone put an E85 4.0 from an SUV in theirs, and are claiming 225 BHP,
with 209-212 to the wheels according to the Dyno. Still, you don't need to replace the whole
motor for that, total waste of time... You can do the same with the stock 4.0, tuned. You can
go larger injectors with a custom tune for more HP, but the system will handle it, as is. You
only need worry about gaskets, seals, and o-rings...

Just changed the fuel filter today, see how that goes...
 

01yellerCobra

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You can run pump gas with bigger injectors. Just needs the right tune. IMO it's better to have two tunes anyway just in case. Thats what I'm doing with my set up and I'm running Id1050x injectors.
 

Flusher

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Is Compressed Natural Gas (CNG) an option? I find the performance aspect very interesting and even more so, the ability to fill your tank at home (if you have service).
 

08MustangDude

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Is Compressed Natural Gas (CNG) an option? I find the performance aspect very interesting and even more so, the ability to fill your tank at home (if you have service).
There are universal propane kits, not sure on CNG, because you need
a place to fill it. There are plenty propane fill places.

You can run pump gas with bigger injectors. Just needs the right tune. IMO it's better to have two tunes anyway just in case. Thats what I'm doing with my set up and I'm running Id1050x injectors.
I'd like to have two PROMs with a switch, to hardware switch tunes. Used
to be able to do that way back when cars used EPROMs. You could get a
bigger memory EPROM and bank-switch the program before starting the
car. So, if it was a 128K EPROM, you get a 256K and program both
tunes into the chip, then use a switch to address either 128k bank... Or,
you got two 128s, piggybacked them with the power pins sticking out sideways,
and used a SPDT on the power pins. Bank switching was just a few jumpers at
the bottom of the socket to a switch... I still have an E/EE/P/ROM burner/reader...

They use TSOPs or SoCs now. The original Xbox had a TSOP, and you could hard
mod those using a switch. Some even had four banks, so you could use four
different BIOSez for modding... Softmod first, then write to the TSOP...

Or find a way to quick-swap ECUs. Get two with your VIN, and have the
different tunes in them.
 

MrAwesome987

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I'd like to have two PROMs with a switch, to hardware switch tunes.
That'd be pretty slick. That's effectively what I do, I just have two tunes and switch back and forth if needed. But being able to do it with the flip of a switch would be really nice.
 

01yellerCobra

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There are universal propane kits, not sure on CNG, because you need
a place to fill it. There are plenty propane fill places.


I'd like to have two PROMs with a switch, to hardware switch tunes. Used
to be able to do that way back when cars used EPROMs. You could get a
bigger memory EPROM and bank-switch the program before starting the
car. So, if it was a 128K EPROM, you get a 256K and program both
tunes into the chip, then use a switch to address either 128k bank... Or,
you got two 128s, piggybacked them with the power pins sticking out sideways,
and used a SPDT on the power pins. Bank switching was just a few jumpers at
the bottom of the socket to a switch... I still have an E/EE/P/ROM burner/reader...

Or find a way to quick-swap ECUs. Get two with your VIN, and have the
different tunes in them.
Or just do what tons of people do and have both tunes saved on your device and switch as needed. No need to swap ECU's.

Although after November I should have flex fuel capability.
 

01yellerCobra

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That'd be pretty slick. That's effectively what I do, I just have two tunes and switch back and forth if needed. But being able to do it with the flip of a switch would be really nice.
SCT used to make a flip switch chip. It held a couple tunes and you could select it before starting the car.

It's too bad they can't make it so you can switch on the fly like some diesels.
 

08MustangDude

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Of course I have more than ONE tune on my device, but it takes time to
WRITE them... SO, switching banks in a chip, or switching a chip, is
instant.

It can be done with any ECU if you have the hardware and know how. All
it is, is a TSOP or PROM, you need to hook it all up. With surface mount
technology though, it's just a lot harder... Not worth the time in the short
run, but if you find that you're changing tunes a lot, it's worth it. Especially
if you want an economy tune to fall back on..

Some TSOPs have more than one bank of writable memory. They usually
write all banks with the same program. So, you can tune (marry) one bank,
then switch to another bank for the factory program. The issue is, if you
wanted to tune all the banks, you need to marry a tuner to each bank and
remember which tuner is on which bank...

Switching banks with a TSOP is knowing which traces to cut, and jumper
a switch to. SO, you ground one pin, and you're at the factory bank.
Ground a different pin, and you're on the tuned bank. The chip changes
which bank is addressable with the grounded pin(s). BACK in the day,
which also worked with your basic 27XXX EPROMs.

Again, all depends on how they're storing the program.. From what I read, there
is very little memory management on their latest ECUs.

Ford gas vehicles up to 2004 used an Intel 8096 micro-controller derivative.
Then they went to Freescale PowerPC architecture. Mustang with the 5L in 2011
went TriCore. Ford started transitioning to the Siemens tricore processor provided
in the ECU manufacturing by Bosch. By 2012, Ford was Bosch/tricore fleet-wide.
https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:PPC-ECM.jpg

The chips were designed by Ford's Microelectronics group in Colorado with support from
Motorola and Intel, and were also cross sourced from several different manufacturers.

They use a serial control protocol chip (SCP) to handle communications and flashing.

There is an EEC ARCHITECTURE AND HARDWARE REFERENCE MANUAL out there somewhere.
 

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