2013 GT, O2 monitors not coming on. Will a Dyno Tune help?

Discussion in '2011+ Mustang GT 5.0L Tech' started by jth877, Dec 11, 2020.

  1. Samuel4477

    Samuel4477 Junior Member

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    Do you have any direct experience solving this problem? I've had a coyote 100% stock except for gt500 mufflers and it's had this problem for years. You keep dismissing the issue by posting to "do the drive cycle" but for many it does not solve the problem.
     
  2. stkjock

    stkjock ---- Madmin ---- Staff Member Administrator Super Moderator S197 Team Member

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    Yes I do and it’s been shown time and rime again
     
  3. Juice

    Juice forum member

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    Those 2 are a bugger. Even a factory stock tune. Tried the Ford drive cycle. Mine are incomplete now after two full tanks burned. No idea how to speed the up.
     
  4. Samuel4477

    Samuel4477 Junior Member

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    SOLVED!

    I solved my 02/H02 problem myself. The bottom line is endlessly repeating the Ford Drive Cycle is not the solution - it's contributing to the problem.

    To clarify - the issue is that in certain 13-14 Mustangs the 02 and H02 sensors refuse to "ready" for emissions evaluation. Without exception these cars have some exhaust mods ranging from H pipe/cat back, axle back, or like mine, just mufflers. No matter how many Ford Drive Cycles are performed the 02/h02 monitors wont ready.

    SOLUTION: The problem seems to be the modified free flowing exhaust prevents the cats from getting hot enough - for long enough for the 02 and H02 tests to run. The Ford Drive Cycle contributes to this because it keeps the speeds between 40-65 MPH and thus the RPMs and load are too low to build and maintain sufficient cat temp.

    Normal driving and the Ford Drive Cycle on my car produces cat temps (as measured via my nGague) typically between 650-1050-degrees Fahrenheit. From my tests on my car (bone stock 13 auto with Ford 13-14 GT500 mufflers) it appears minimum cat temps of 1250, and better 1350+, best 1400+, are necessary for 15 mins, followed by 15 mins of normal 40-65 mph driving (700-1100 cat temps) for the 02 and H02 tests to both start and complete.

    I note the necessity of normal driving because it seems the cats need to get hot for the test to start then run at lower speeds for the test to complete and the 02 and H02 to show ready. In my tests they won't show ready until after the heated cats cool off in 10+ mins of normal driving.

    On my car to get and maintain this cat temp (1325+) for 15+ mins this requires sustained 80+ mph for over 90+ minutes, or driving a warm car at 3k-4k rpm in 2nd or 3rd gear for 15 mins while monitoring cat temp and adjusting the throttle accordingly to keep the temp in range. I suspect this is not necessary for stock exhaust cars to ready because they have increased exhaust backpressure. Thus, if you have a more modified exhaust, such as a cat back, you may need greater rpms to get cat temp in the range I describe.

    Note it takes some time and rpm to heat the cats up to the range and then slightly less rpm/throttle will keep them there but if rpm/throttle drops below 3k the cats can cool 300-500 degrees in just 15 seconds so consistency is vital. I don’t know what impact momentary dips below this range will have on the readiness process but these 02 and H02 sensors are sensitive little bitches so I recommend you strictly stay within range.

    Also note though I list my rpms and gear it seems to me the real driver of cat temp is load. Cats will get hotter easier and faster driving up a long hill and conversely will be faster to cool with the same RPM going downhill. So really, I think monitoring cat temp while driving is a must to do this accurately and reliably. Otherwise, I guess you can just drive a warm car at 3500 rpm for 20 mins but that's kinda winging it.

    How I came to this understanding is I went on a 4-hour drive and the 02 and H02 went ready after about 2 hours of steady 80+ mph. They did not go ready in the preceding 2-hour drive with traffic where my speed fluctuated between 40-80 mph. I was monitoring the cat temps and 02/H02 readiness the whole-time given recent conversations with a local tech and another tuner pointed to modded exhaust as the problem. After the drive I cleared the monitors and performed the high rpm/low gear drive the next day using cat temp as my guide. I kept them above 1350 and got the 02 and H02 to ready after about 10-15 minutes of high cat temp driving followed by 10 mins of normal driving.

    I then cleared my monitors again and repeated with the same driving test with the same result in the same time. So, after repeating results 3 times I think it’s problem solved (God willing, knock on wood.)(I’m not taking any chances!)

    It's been a long 2+ year siege to solve this f&%*ing problem. I've had the three-best local “Mustang guru” tuners look at the car, a Ford Service lead tech who was befuddled and consulted with Ford Corporate, and several experienced local mechanics look at the car with no consensus other than start throwing parts at it ranging from spark plugs and 02 sensors to the new cats and ECU. Only my last local mechanic, along with another tuner, both pointed to exhaust mods which gave me the clue cat temps may be the solution.

    LUND racing, who I imagine must know of the importance of cat temps – at least if they’re as good as they advertise - would not take any time to help me despite that I'm their customer. Or maybe it was just above their knowledge/ skill set – I don’t know – but they could have at least tried to help.

    Many forums have threads of this issue with frustrated owners like me but no solutions short of returning the engine and exhaust to 100% stock then it corrects itself. Problem is in states like NY the car must pass the test every year so returning the car back to stock yearly is a real burden.

    Owners perform countless Ford Drive Cycles desperate solve the problem to no avail at the encouragement of people who insist the drive cycle is the solution when in fact sometimes it's not the solution as with my car. A few owners said they sold their car in frustration. I was considering this myself.

    I hope this is truly the solution for everyone with this problem and this thread helps others in the future.

    Thanks to everyone who commented.

    Best regards and good luck!

    Resized_20210828_143801.jpeg
     
    Last edited: Sep 6, 2021
  5. stkjock

    stkjock ---- Madmin ---- Staff Member Administrator Super Moderator S197 Team Member

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    Glad it worked out and congrats

    You could always hold a lower gear and get temps up
     
    crjackson2134 and Samuel4477 like this.
  6. Juice

    Juice forum member

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    We took mine on a 160 mile round trip. Sustained 70mph for 10 miles or more, mixed in some stop and go. Mine did not complete. :(
    I will monitor cat temps and see if I can duplicate.
    Thanks for the info.
     
    Samuel4477 likes this.
  7. Samuel4477

    Samuel4477 Junior Member

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    Juice 70 mph for 10 mins would definitely not do it for my car. Stop and go is also unacceptable. Check to make sure all yr monitors other than O2 and HO2 are already be set. Late night on an open highway, 2-4th gear to suit your desired speed, must be 3-4k rpm, keep cat temps 1350-1600 degrees for 10 mins, then do 60-80mph in 6th for 10 mins at any cat temp, then check your monitors. If yr exhaust is aftermarket cat back it may be more free flowing than mine and thus more backpressure via rpms/load may be necessary to keep the cats in that range. Let us know yr results. Good luck!
     
  8. LT-Dan

    LT-Dan Junior Member

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    I never did the driving cycle on my 2011 GT. Went on a few trips to the dragon and drove the hell out of the car. I was driving like a grandpa in the city one day, lots of stop and go, pulled into a parking lot and they were still incomplete. Did a u-turn in the parking lot, and they all went green. I still have no idea, but I am NOT changing the 93 performance tune to the any of the other tunes...
     
  9. GlassTop09

    GlassTop09 Member

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    Glad that the OP resolved it so congrats for you!

    Just to put this here.....................

    The Ford Drive Cycle procedure as currently written isn't bad per se, the real issue w\ it is that it hasn't been updated to reflect the newer strategies Ford is using in the newer OBDII monitor algorithms since the advent of the Copperhead PCM, which are far more stringent & precise so in order to improve the success rate of completing these you really need to get a copy of the Ford OBDII Summary document for the MY of your Stang & go thru it to know everything necessary that has to be present (the min\max entry requirements for each OBDII monitor check to run & complete.....which also will cover the min\max temp ranges for monitor start\completion if required) then you have to figure out how to drive the car to achieve every 1 of the min entry requirements but NOT exceed any given max entry requirements at the same time for monitor to start\run (which is the reason for the Ford Drive Cycle procedure, but it's outdated for Copperhead-equipped Stangs. Works just fine w\ Spanish Oaks & earlier Ford PCM's).

    The OP finally figured out what was needed to be done w\ his car as it is equipped to get the operational temps of the O2, HO2 & CE ratio monitors above the min entry temp ranges for the monitors to start\run (the only criteria that he kept missing before now that kept them from running much earlier).

    The Ford MY OBDII Summary docs has all of that info in it. Covers every Ford built OBDII-equipped vehicle from 1996 to 2019 MY currently.

    www.motorcraftservice.com\Free Resources\OBDII Theory & Operation

    These docs were written for Ford service techs to use by Ford engineers so the reading will be somewhat technical in nature & dry but they also provide process flow trees of monitor check progression from start to either completion or failure so are instrumental in TS why a monitor may get stuck in process & keeps repeating itself waiting on an entry requirement update.....

    FYI
     
    crjackson2134 likes this.
  10. Juice

    Juice forum member

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    So I checked the tune, in the kwc4 strategy (2013 GT w/manual trans), catbed min temp to run monitor is 800*F. Same in the control pack Crate_6 strategy.
    Monitored cat temps, 1100-1350 *F during highway cruise, as reported by Torque.
     
  11. Samuel4477

    Samuel4477 Junior Member

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    Well I don't know if auto's have radically different minimum temps but those temps you cited did not work for me. Like I said, Im my experience less than 1325 for 10 mins did not work. Just try what I suggested and you will know for sure.
     
  12. Frankief28

    Frankief28 Junior Member

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    Hey guys had quick question about TB which one is best to buy that won’t give problems with response or idling my car is 2012 GT auto with following mods
    Long tube headers
    X pipe
    2018 intake manifold
    JLT air intake
    Oil catch can
    Thanks
     
  13. pass1over

    pass1over I like it LOW

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    stock TB
     
  14. Juice

    Juice forum member

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    So back to topic, I drove at near speed limit for sustained amount of time. 25 miles at 70+ mph. Twice on a 180 mile daytrip. Those three monitors are still incomplete. Going to look at mode 6 data to see if the tests even started to run.
    Good info btw, I will figure this out. lol
     
  15. Frankief28

    Frankief28 Junior Member

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    So are stock TB better then all aftermarket ones ? I’m just trying to squeeze whatever power I can n/a before I decide if I want to go cams or turbo with it
     
  16. Midlife Crises

    Midlife Crises Senior Member

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    The most reliable, trouble free throttle bodies for your car are made by Ford. Just changing to a larger throttle is not going to give you more power. Intake manifolds and/or camshafts that can use the larger airflow potential will have much more impact.
     
  17. Frankief28

    Frankief28 Junior Member

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    Yeah I have 2018 manifold on it already with jlt intake what about bigger fuel injectors? Or there’s no point ?
     
  18. LT-Dan

    LT-Dan Junior Member

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    I must be very lucky when it comes to getting these monitors to complete. A few days ago, the car started sputtering and threw a pending cylinder 7 misfire code. Restarted the car and it ran fine, so I cleared the codes. Checked the monitors, and back to incomplete they went. After a few days of city driving (4th gear max, sustained 3-4k rpm), they completed again.

    Mods:
    Boss 302 intake
    C&L CAI
    Boss 302 Style X pipe with side exhaust
    QTP 302 exhaust cutouts
    Bama performance tune
     
  19. LarryJM

    LarryJM forum member

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    Well if you have a PhD from Wayne State and work at the Coyote Dyno room at Ford, you kind of know this.
     
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