Andrew06GT

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I need some major help.

I have a 2006 Mustang Gt Premium with a 5-speed (188,000 miles) that is not happy. For some context, I bought the car off of a younger kid and it was diagnosed by my dealership that it needed an engine. After further teardown, the camshaft phaser in bank 2 sheared the locking pin on the cam and needed to be replaced. The phaser, cam, cam position sensor and VVT solenoid were all replaced.

The ENTIRE bank 2 section of the engine is cutting out and running great but only off of 4 cylinders. On cold start, it runs perfect, idles perfect and has no issues. As soon as it warms up, or goes under load it completely cuts out.

Lights on:
CEL and enters limp mode intermittently

DTC's:
P0300 - Random Misfire Detected
P0305 through P0308 - Cylinder 5-8 Misfire
P0345 - Camshaft Position Sensor A Circuit (Bank 2)
P0349 - Camshaft Position Sensor A Circuit Intermittent (Bank 2)
P2195 - O2 Sensor Signal Biased/Stuck Lean - Bank 1, Sensor 1
P2197 - O2 Sensor Signal Biased/Stuck Lean - Bank 2, Sensor 1

Replaced:
Camshaft Position Sensor (Bank 2)
Camshaft Phaser and Sprocket (Bank 2)
Camshaft (Bank 2)
VVT Solenoid (Bank 2)
Spark Plugs

Checked/Fixed:
Timing on both banks matched up when valve covers were pulled
Injector pulse w/ noid light (Looked good on every cylinder)
Rewired cam position sensor (bank 2) SIGRN and CPS2 wires all the way to PCM (Resistance measured out of spec through Ford PTS Pinpoint tests)
Removed and stripped electrical tape and checked ENTIRE wiring harness for shorts or abnormality
Borescope showed pistons, cylinder walls and valves normal
122-125 psi static compression on bank 2 (tested with a little bit of oil to test rings and only went up 2-3psi)
180-182 psi static compression on bank 1

I'm not sure what the compression looks like for the 3v's but I'm pretty sure the compression is part of the issue and I could use some pointers for testing and diagnosis.

What I know:
Transmission is fine and shifts fine
Battery/Alternator are good
Timing marks on both cams checked out when pulled and were replaced correctly

Could it be a PCM issue?
 

Andrew06GT

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I did a compression test on both banks already and the numbers are in the post, is there another compression test or different one? I just measured compression during cranking and gave it about 6 turns before reading the gauge.
 

Gearjammer2287

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From what ur describing and with compression test I’d say why ever issues ur having are mechanical

I would do a leak down test if that passes then engine is healthy and u have cam timing issues

If u have data log abilities u can log the cam timing actual vs. desired that would also indicate if it has timing issues wich is what I would suspect based on what u have stated
 

GlassTop09

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122-125 psi static compression on bank 2 (tested with a little bit of oil to test rings and only went up 2-3psi)
180-182 psi static compression on bank 1
Hi Andrew06GT,

I understand all of what you've typed to fix this issue, but this data right here is IMHO telling you that the B2 cam timing is off (retarded) vs B1 cam timing (assuming that both cam phasers were locked at full advance or straight up.......normal position of cams thru phasers when no EOP is present which is the case when you did the static compression tests) as this is the only way these compression numbers can exist in this manner.

What I would suggest doing to see this to verify it is to use something like Forscan run in Dashboard Mode (datalogging) w\ the VCT PIDs set up to see the actual B1\B2 cam timing thru the PCM relative to the crank timing.........this should verify what you're seeing thru the compression test results (B2 cam timing should show to be retarded vs B1 cam timing).

Hope this helps.

PS edit--Forgot to say that........at this time the only feasible thing to do, once you've verified what is obvious, is to pull the front timing cover & retime the engine......at least B2 at a minimum......properly. I know the amount of work & expense is not an easy thing to accept sometimes but if you care about this platform & it's integrity, this is your path to resolution.

Hope this helps as well.
 
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Andrew06GT

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Thanks for all the help y'all, like I said I work at a ford dealership so pulling the timing cover isn't at an expense to me other than my time. I thought about it and didn't know if the chain jumped with the failed phaser and everything checked out to me and another senior master tech. At this point i'd like to stop throwing parts and time at it and completely verify if it is mechanical. I'll pull the timing cover and let y'all know what it looks like after I get some cam timing numbers datalogged.
 

86GT351

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Thanks for all the help y'all, like I said I work at a ford dealership so pulling the timing cover isn't at an expense to me other than my time. I thought about it and didn't know if the chain jumped with the failed phaser and everything checked out to me and another senior master tech. At this point i'd like to stop throwing parts and time at it and completely verify if it is mechanical. I'll pull the timing cover and let y'all know what it looks like after I get some cam timing numbers datalogged.
hOW MANY MILES? dID YOU REPLACE THE TENSIONERS ALSO?
 

Dino Dino Bambino

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hOW MANY MILES? dID YOU REPLACE THE TENSIONERS ALSO?

He said 188k miles but good call on the tensioners. If they weren't replaced, the driver's side chain could have skipped a tooth when the engine was restarted after reassembly.
@GlassTop09 is right on the money (as usual!). The fact that the compression numbers on all four cylinders in each bank are consistent, but with bank 2 being substantially lower, does point to the cam timing being off on that side (probably just one tooth).
The good news is that the compression numbers on bank 1 show that there's likely to be minimal cylinder bore/piston ring wear so it would appear that you have an engine that's otherwise in very good health for the mileage.
 

Andrew06GT

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He said 188k miles but good call on the tensioners. If they weren't replaced, the driver's side chain could have skipped a tooth when the engine was restarted after reassembly.
@GlassTop09 is right on the money (as usual!). The fact that the compression numbers on all four cylinders in each bank are consistent, but with bank 2 being substantially lower, does point to the cam timing being off on that side (probably just one tooth).
The good news is that the compression numbers on bank 1 show that there's likely to be minimal cylinder bore/piston ring wear so it would appear that you have an engine that's otherwise in very good health for the mileage.
I did check the tensioners as much as I could see with the valve covers off and there was no slack when everything was reinstalled which I know can be deceiving. I'm definitely going to do the tensioners while I have it open!
 

GlassTop09

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After further teardown, the camshaft phaser in bank 2 sheared the locking pin on the cam and needed to be replaced. The phaser, cam, cam position sensor and VVT solenoid were all replaced.
I gotta ask.............are the cams in this engine the OEM cams or were they aftermarket cams? I'm asking due to the fact you posted that the cam timing alignment pin inside original B2 cam phaser socket was found sheared off thus cam spun inside phaser socket.........also my curiosity is getting the better of me, so I had to ask...................

You do realize that this is caused from the cam phaser bolt initially loosing clamping force thus cam was loose enough to slip\spin inside the phaser socket thus beat\broke this timing alignment pin off along w\ damaging the cam's alignment pin slot in the process thus this didn't happen all at once--was going on for some time before finally taking the alignment pin out & loosing time..........thus why my question about the cams being used.

I've never heard of\witnessed these cam phaser bolts--especially the OEM FoMoCo\Ford Performance cam phaser bolts--just backing off on their own once properly torqued..........but I've read\heard of this happening several times shortly after someone did a cam change\phaser change\timing job & thought they'd properly torqued the cam phaser bolts (but they actually didn't OR they reused the 1-time use cam phaser bolts instead of installing new ones) along w\ the fact you also posted thus is implying to me that you bought this car w\ the engine already broken so I'm wondering if the prior owner had been in here messing around prior your ownership.................

I know that there's always a 1st time for stuff like this to happen naturally, but this would be a 1-in-a-million type of scenario IMHO...........

Doesn't matter in the end............I'm just curious as to the history behind all this as IMHO something just isn't adding up in my mind..............

But also, be thankful that the cams installed are fully VCT-compliant range-wise (60* retard range) which will allow a cam to become out of phase (what your compression test results is showing.....the 57-58 psi difference between the banks suggests to me that B2 is more than 1 tooth off......) timing-wise w\ the other cam quite a bit w\o suffering any piston-to-valve contact (usually will be retarded timing wise--also why the B2 compression pressures are lower than B1's--which is going in the right direction towards the exhaust valve thus will have 60* of retard cushion--piston is also fly cut to clear the exhaust valve--before piston runs into the exhaust valve during the last 1\3 travel of the exhaust stroke).

This is why\how you got away w\ no initial internal engine damage in an interference engine from a cam jumping out of phased timing.........
 

86GT351

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I did check the tensioners as much as I could see with the valve covers off and there was no slack when everything was reinstalled which I know can be deceiving. I'm definitely going to do the tensioners while I have it open!
I thought I saw something that said you were a tech at a dealer. Why would the tensioners not be replaced at 188000 miles? Compressing them off the engine is not the same pressure as the engine would create.
 

Andrew06GT

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I gotta ask.............are the cams in this engine the OEM cams or were they aftermarket cams? I'm asking due to the fact you posted that the cam timing alignment pin inside original B2 cam phaser socket was found sheared off thus cam spun inside phaser socket.........also my curiosity is getting the better of me, so I had to ask...................

You do realize that this is caused from the cam phaser bolt initially loosing clamping force thus cam was loose enough to slip\spin inside the phaser socket thus beat\broke this timing alignment pin off along w\ damaging the cam's alignment pin slot in the process thus this didn't happen all at once--was going on for some time before finally taking the alignment pin out & loosing time..........thus why my question about the cams being used.

I've never heard of\witnessed these cam phaser bolts--especially the OEM FoMoCo\Ford Performance cam phaser bolts--just backing off on their own once properly torqued..........but I've read\heard of this happening several times shortly after someone did a cam change\phaser change\timing job & thought they'd properly torqued the cam phaser bolts (but they actually didn't OR they reused the 1-time use cam phaser bolts instead of installing new ones) along w\ the fact you also posted thus is implying to me that you bought this car w\ the engine already broken so I'm wondering if the prior owner had been in here messing around prior your ownership.................

I know that there's always a 1st time for stuff like this to happen naturally, but this would be a 1-in-a-million type of scenario IMHO...........

Doesn't matter in the end............I'm just curious as to the history behind all this as IMHO something just isn't adding up in my mind..............

But also, be thankful that the cams installed are fully VCT-compliant range-wise (60* retard range) which will allow a cam to become out of phase (what your compression test results is showing.....the 57-58 psi difference between the banks suggests to me that B2 is more than 1 tooth off......) timing-wise w\ the other cam quite a bit w\o suffering any piston-to-valve contact (usually will be retarded timing wise--also why the B2 compression pressures are lower than B1's--which is going in the right direction towards the exhaust valve thus will have 60* of retard cushion--piston is also fly cut to clear the exhaust valve--before piston runs into the exhaust valve during the last 1\3 travel of the exhaust stroke).

This is why\how you got away w\ no initial internal engine damage in an interference engine from a cam jumping out of phased timing.........
The ones replaced are all OEM from the dealer's parts department (cams, phasers, new bolts etc.). You're spot on with the assumption, I bought the car extremely cheap because the customer was quoted upwards of $13k for an engine replacement after the damage was done. Not sure what the guy had done to it before me, he was a fairly young kid with little automotive knowledge other than basic maintenance.
 

Andrew06GT

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I thought I saw something that said you were a tech at a dealer. Why would the tensioners not be replaced at 188000 miles? Compressing them off the engine is not the same pressure as the engine would create.
I do work for the dealer but I am not a tech, I also just bought the car after it was quoted an engine replacement so I don't know what was/wasn't serviced nor have I opened the engine up enough to do timing components.
 

GlassTop09

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The ones replaced are all OEM from the dealer's parts department (cams, phasers, new bolts etc.). You're spot on with the assumption, I bought the car extremely cheap because the customer was quoted upwards of $13k for an engine replacement after the damage was done. Not sure what the guy had done to it before me, he was a fairly young kid with little automotive knowledge other than basic maintenance.
Ah OK. With the mileage you reported for a 06 MY S197 & the fact that the 05-06 MY's were the most troublesome MY's for cam phasers & VCT solenoid failures (the reasons why Ford updated\revised these 2 components shortly afterwards by the 07 MY onwards) my thinking was that at some point across the mileage range this engine has on it, at a minimum the cam phasers were changed out due to a potential cam phaser failure (high odds due to MY) or a set of aftermarket cams installed.

You answered the question concerning aftermarket cams when you used OEM replacement cams thus I suspect the originals were OEM cams..........that leaves the option of a cam phaser changeout at some time prior your ownership to set up a potential scenario for the B2 cam phaser bolt to either get improperly TQ'd, a cheap aftermarket cam phaser bolt got used instead of a genuine FoMoCo replacement cam phaser bolt (genuine FoMoCo bolts are QA\QC for powertrain warranty replacement quality) or the old used cam phaser bolt got reused thus backed off over time & lost clamping load...............

Anyway, IMHO you got a smoking deal on your hands considering all that's occurred..........easy fix here for very cheap money overall.
:beer:
 

Andrew06GT

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Ah OK. With the mileage you reported for a 06 MY S197 & the fact that the 05-06 MY's were the most troublesome MY's for cam phasers & VCT solenoid failures (the reasons why Ford updated\revised these 2 components shortly afterwards by the 07 MY onwards) my thinking was that at some point across the mileage range this engine has on it, at a minimum the cam phasers were changed out due to a potential cam phaser failure (high odds due to MY) or a set of aftermarket cams installed.

You answered the question concerning aftermarket cams when you used OEM replacement cams thus I suspect the originals were OEM cams..........that leaves the option of a cam phaser changeout at some time prior your ownership to set up a potential scenario for the B2 cam phaser bolt to either get improperly TQ'd, a cheap aftermarket cam phaser bolt got used instead of a genuine FoMoCo replacement cam phaser bolt (genuine FoMoCo bolts are QA\QC for powertrain warranty replacement quality) or the old used cam phaser bolt got reused thus backed off over time & lost clamping load...............

Anyway, IMHO you got a smoking deal on your hands considering all that's occurred..........easy fix here for very cheap money overall.
:beer:
Fo sure, I got a steal on the car and its only going to cost me around $600 for a ford performance all inclusive timing kit.

I appreciate the help!
 

Dino Dino Bambino

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Ah OK. With the mileage you reported for a 06 MY S197 & the fact that the 05-06 MY's were the most troublesome MY's for cam phasers & VCT solenoid failures (the reasons why Ford updated\revised these 2 components shortly afterwards by the 07 MY onwards)

If only Ford had revised the cam phasers and cam followers as early as that. Unfortunately they only released the revised components after the last 4.6L 3V engine rolled off the production line. The commonest causes of VCT solenoid failure are neglected oil changes and the use of poor quality oil. Once you starve the phasers of oil flow, they'll inevitably also fail.
If anyone needs the part numbers for a valve train refurbishment, here you go:

Ford Performance Camshaft Drive Kit: M-6004-463V
Ford Performance Rocker Arm Lash Adjuster Kit: M-6529-3V
Felpro Timing Chain Tensioner Gasket Set: ES73226
OEM '13-'14 Shelby GT500 high pressure oil pump (Ford part no. DR3Z6600A)
OEM 3V oil pump pickup tube (Ford part no. 4R3Z6622AA)
 

Andrew06GT

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I gotta ask.............are the cams in this engine the OEM cams or were they aftermarket cams? I'm asking due to the fact you posted that the cam timing alignment pin inside original B2 cam phaser socket was found sheared off thus cam spun inside phaser socket.........also my curiosity is getting the better of me, so I had to ask...................

You do realize that this is caused from the cam phaser bolt initially loosing clamping force thus cam was loose enough to slip\spin inside the phaser socket thus beat\broke this timing alignment pin off along w\ damaging the cam's alignment pin slot in the process thus this didn't happen all at once--was going on for some time before finally taking the alignment pin out & loosing time..........thus why my question about the cams being used.

I've never heard of\witnessed these cam phaser bolts--especially the OEM FoMoCo\Ford Performance cam phaser bolts--just backing off on their own once properly torqued..........but I've read\heard of this happening several times shortly after someone did a cam change\phaser change\timing job & thought they'd properly torqued the cam phaser bolts (but they actually didn't OR they reused the 1-time use cam phaser bolts instead of installing new ones) along w\ the fact you also posted thus is implying to me that you bought this car w\ the engine already broken so I'm wondering if the prior owner had been in here messing around prior your ownership.................

I know that there's always a 1st time for stuff like this to happen naturally, but this would be a 1-in-a-million type of scenario IMHO...........

Doesn't matter in the end............I'm just curious as to the history behind all this as IMHO something just isn't adding up in my mind..............

But also, be thankful that the cams installed are fully VCT-compliant range-wise (60* retard range) which will allow a cam to become out of phase (what your compression test results is showing.....the 57-58 psi difference between the banks suggests to me that B2 is more than 1 tooth off......) timing-wise w\ the other cam quite a bit w\o suffering any piston-to-valve contact (usually will be retarded timing wise--also why the B2 compression pressures are lower than B1's--which is going in the right direction towards the exhaust valve thus will have 60* of retard cushion--piston is also fly cut to clear the exhaust valve--before piston runs into the exhaust valve during the last 1\3 travel of the exhaust stroke).

This is why\how you got away w\ no initial internal engine damage in an interference engine from a cam jumping out of phased timing.........
Ended up pulling the entire timing cover off, had a stuck tensioner, cracked off piece of the guide, and the timing for Bank 2 was 180* out. Replaced the entire timing drive components, retimed everything, put it back together and runs like it should!
 

bambam 06

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it was diagnosed by my dealership that it needed an engine! Should have done that before "before" you bought the car, once you bought it without cheking it out. You pay the consequences.
 

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